What the Law and the Bible say about Homosexuality.

TrumpTrainCA

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.....of course we can and do

unless you can come up with a law that is not based on morality? :think:

answer: you can't.....


Sure I can.

Entering Into Contracts, which is the basis of our society. A contract is neither moral nor immoral. It is an agreement between two parties.

MURDER: While murder may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it deprives me of my rights, notably my right to life.

Same goes for RAPE: While rape may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it is a physical assault on another person, causing bodily harm and damage.

Same with THEFT. It is illegal because you are stealing my property and thus depriving me of my right to property ownership, not because it is immoral

Just because many laws deal with immoral acts, their morality is not the reason for their illegality.

Anal sex between a man and a woman is consensual and does not deprive them of their rights. Your attempt to make it illegal is based on morality ONLY and you cannot do that.
 

JudgeRightly

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Sure I can.

Entering Into Contracts, which is the basis of our society.

If a man makes a vow to the Lord, or swears an oath to bind himself by some agreement, he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. - Numbers 30:2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers30:2&version=NKJV

Seems like a moral issue to me...

A contract is neither moral nor immoral. It is an agreement between two parties.

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MURDER: While murder may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it deprives me of my rights, notably my right to life.

Same goes for RAPE: While rape may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it is a physical assault on another person, causing bodily harm and damage.

Same with THEFT. It is illegal because you are stealing my property, not because it is immoral

Just because many laws deal with immoral acts, their morality is not the reason for their illegality.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Sure I can.

Entering Into Contracts, which is the basis of our society. A contract is neither moral nor immoral. It is an agreement between two parties.

MURDER: While murder may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it deprives me of my rights, notably my right to life.

Same goes for RAPE: While rape may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it is a physical assault on another person, causing bodily harm and damage.

Same with THEFT. It is illegal because you are stealing my property and thus depriving me of my right to property ownership, not because it is immoral

:doh:


:nono:
 

jgarden

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Many people are under the mistaken assumption that Homosexuality is not against the Law. However, in the Law of Moses we find that it is against the Law.

Genesis 18:20-19:29 is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13 are against Homosexuality.

Leviticus 18:22 NASB - 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.​

Leviticus 20:13 NASB - 'If [there is] a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.​

Romans 1:18-32 affirms that those who practice homosexuality are worthy of death.

Romans 1:18-32 NASB - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; [they are] gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.​

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 shows for believers that some used to be homosexuals.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NASB - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor [the] covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.​

1 Timothy 1:8-10 affirms that the Law is for those who practice homosexuality.

1 Timothy 1:8-10 NASB - But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,​

Therefore I conclude that homosexuality is bad and wrong, and that those who practice it are worthy of death, but that you can repent and not practice it any more.

Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

The Bible is also quite explicit as to the punishment that awaits those children that "curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death" - but I don't see conservative Christians demanding that this Mosaic law be enacted!

Could it be that they are also in the habit of "cherry picking" as to which Biblical verses they wish to adhere - and those they choose to ignore?
 

Clete

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Sure I can.

Entering Into Contracts, which is the basis of our society. A contract is neither moral nor immoral. It is an agreement between two parties.
Contract law is based on the implication that one is to honor their obligations; that it is wrong (i.e. immoral) to violate a contract.

MURDER: While murder may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it deprives me of my rights, notably my right to life.
How can you not see that you are arguing against yourself?

You just said in one sentence that it's not based on morality and then in the very next you imply that it is wrong (i.e. immoral) to deprive you of your RIGHT to life.

All of morality is based on life. That which is proper to life is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil.

Proverbs 11:19 As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death.

Same goes for RAPE: While rape may be an immoral act, that is not why it is illegal. It is illegal because it is a physical assault on another person, causing bodily harm and damage.
Once again, your implication is that it is wrong to "assault another person, causing bodily harm and damage."

Same with THEFT. It is illegal because you are stealing my property and thus depriving me of my right to property ownership, not because it is immoral
The right to private property is merely an extention of the right to life, as are all rights.

"The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave." - Ayn Rand

Just because many laws deal with immoral acts, their morality is not the reason for their illegality.
You have unwittingly proven otherwise by your own words.

Anal sex between a man and a woman is consensual and does not deprive them of their rights. Your attempt to make it illegal is based on morality ONLY and you cannot do that.
God directly disagrees with you. He did not tell Israel that homosexuality (regardless of what sort of sex they engaged in) was merely sinfull but that it was to be criminally procecuted and those found guilty were to be put to death.

Is it your position that God is unjust?

Clete

P.S. I know that your post was in response to Ok Doser but I just couldn't resist typing a response myself. It's not my intent to "pile on" or whatever. It's just that this topic is rarely engaged on such a philosophical level, plus you seem more resonable than average and so I just cannot resist putting in my two cents.
 

Clete

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Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

The Bible is also quite explicit as to the punishment that awaits those children that "curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death" - but I don't see conservative Christians demanding that this Mosaic law be enacted!

Could it be that they are also in the habit of "cherry picking" as to which Biblical verses they wish to adhere - and those they choose to ignore?

Is it your argument that God is unjust?

The law you site does not refer to young children but adult drunkards who publically dishonor their parents. Further, several laws in the Old Testament only had proper application within the context of the nation of Israel and God's special relationship with that nation. There are good arguments on both sides in regards whether that applies to this particular law but the point is that you don't really care to understand the context of such things. You're more interested in making mindlessly cheap points designed to discredit God as a source of moral standards by which to build a just legal system.
 

TrumpTrainCA

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If a man makes a vow to the Lord, or swears an oath to bind himself by some agreement, he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth. - Numbers 30:2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers30:2&version=NKJV

Seems like a moral issue to me...

If you try hard you can make anything into a moral issue.

How does this ^^^
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Have anything to do with this vvv

It doesn't. I was asked to name laws not based on morality and I did. The fact that some of them are parallel moral issues does not mean that is why they are law.

:doh:
:nono:

I am surprised that you don't get what I am saying.

Look at abortion: We argue against abortion based on a person's right to Life. Abortion infringes on another person's rights, namely, the baby. We do not argue it on moral grounds.

Currently, the problem is that the law does not recognize the unborn as person with all the rights a person has under the Constitution. Tat is we we can kill them because at resent they have no rights.
 

TrumpTrainCA

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Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

The Bible is also quite explicit as to the punishment that awaits those children that "curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death" - but I don't see conservative Christians demanding that this Mosaic law be enacted!

Could it be that they are also in the habit of "cherry picking" as to which Biblical verses they wish to adhere - and those they choose to ignore?


Its pretty bad when jgarden actually gets it right. What he gets wrong here is thinking that all conservatives are aiming to make this stuff illegal.

It would be enough if Gay Marriage were not legal. Sadly, the courts over-reached and took it upon themselves to re-define what marriage is, and that was not their prerogative to d.
 

ok doser

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Is it your argument that God is unjust?

The law you site does not refer to young children but adult drunkards who publically dishonor their parents. Further, several laws in the Old Testament only had proper application within the context of the nation of Israel and God's special relationship with that nation. There are good arguments on both sides in regards whether that applies to this particular law ...


which is the sort of thing that makes this place interesting :thumb:


... but the point is that you don't really care to understand the context of such things. You're more interested in making mindlessly cheap points designed to discredit God ...


... and His followers



which is the sort of thing that makes this place stale, tiresome, boring
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Look at abortion: We argue against abortion based on a person's right to Life. Abortion infringes on another person's rights, namely, the baby. We do not argue it on moral grounds.

that right, the right to life comes from nowhere except God's moral commandment to us: Thou Shalt Not Kill (unjustly)


similarly, all contract law is based on God's moral commandment: Thou Shalt Not Steal
 

TrumpTrainCA

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that right, the right to life comes from nowhere except God's moral commandment to us: Thou Shalt Not Kill (unjustly)

You are having difficulty separating things out. Even if there were no God, I would still be alive, and I would have the right to not have someone else end my life. That would be a self-evident fundamental right.
 

TrumpTrainCA

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Look folks, we have a Constitution. Any law that is passed has to pass Constitutional scrutiny. You cannot pass a law that tells people what kind of sex they can have with each other. I challenge somebody to tell me where the institution covers that
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
You are having difficulty separating things out. Even if there were no God, I would still be alive...

nope


...and I would have the right to not have someone else end my life. That would be a self-evident fundamental right.


it never was absent God's command - in those societies that didn't know God, or who rejected His divine will (southern american slave-owners, for example) life was a tenuous affair, subject to the whims of the strong

where was that "self-evident fundamental right" in stalinist russia?

where was that "self-evident fundamental right" in maoist china?

cambodia under pol pot?

armenia under the turks?

rwanda?

nazi germany?
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Look folks, we have a Constitution.

which has been a good basis for government but not a Godly one

Any law that is passed has to pass Constitutional scrutiny.


right - we used to have such laws

as a society, we agreed that they passed constitutional scrutiny

You cannot pass a law that tells people what kind of sex they can have with each other.

well, we still do, and we used to have more

I challenge somebody to tell me where the institution covers that

10 amendment
 

TrumpTrainCA

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10 amendment

So you want states to pass state laws against sodomy. I assume that you know that state laws existed against sodomy and have all been gotten rid of.

That ain't ever going to happen. Ever. You cannot force your morality on other people who do not share your morals.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
we impose our morality on pedophiles, we impose our morality on rapists, we impose our morality on beastophiles

all of law is us imposing our morality on those who might not agree with it
 
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TrumpTrainCA

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not sure why you keep making this claim when you yourself have argued against it :idunno:

I have not. When morality is the ONLY issue at hand with a proposed law, it will fail.

If morality is but a secondary issue, and the main issue is protecting the rights of others, then your law has a chance of passing.

I have provided numerous examples of this.
 

TrumpTrainCA

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In what way does this apply to bestiality?

Ostensibly it would be protecting an animal's rights regarding unwanted sex. Yes, I know that sounds weird, but in America today animals have been given rights at the state level, and since they cannot consent to sex, that means that a human being having sex with an animal is having sex that is not consensual.

Now, I grant you that many bestiality laws are old and were enacted for moral reasons just like the old sodomy laws were. But it is the new view of animal rights that keeps them from being overturned the way that the sodomy laws were overturned
 
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