Scientists Question Darwinism

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
How far did you have to search to find THAT translation? "Dealt with"??? I hope you see how ridiculous that translation is, as it says God STOPPED dealing with the world, the stars, and the sea and all that is in them. So now, Jerry, you are saying that God hasn't ever deal with humans since the end of the six days. Or perhaps that He never deals with humans on the sabbath day.

The LORD stopped dealing with them on the seventh day because He rested on the seveth day:

"For in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He stopped on the seventh day. Therefore, Yahweh blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it"
(Ex.20:11-12).​

The verse doesn't say that He stopped dealing with them forever but instead He stopped because it was the day of His rest. Now let us look at the following passage which describes what happened on the fourth day:

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day"
(Gen.1:16-19).​

If the word "made" in this passage is referring to bringing into existence the stars on the forth day then how do you explain Genesis 1:1 which says that in the beginning He created the heavens and the earth?

I say that the LORD was dealing with the stars in the sense that He was re-arranging them so that the sun was giving light to the earth, something that was not happening at Genesis 1:2.

Do you think that even though he created the heavens in the beginning that it was not until the fourth day that He created the stars?
 

JudgeRightly

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The LORD stopped dealing with them on the seventh day because He rested on the seveth day:

"For in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He stopped on the seventh day. Therefore, Yahweh blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it"
(Ex.20:11-12).​

The verse doesn't say that He stopped dealing with them forever but instead He stopped because it was the day of His rest.

What in the world are you even talking about?

The Bible tells us explicitly what He ceased doing:

And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. - Genesis 2:2-3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis2:2-3&version=NKJV

He didn't "stop dealing with His creation."

He stopped CREATING AND MAKING!

If, as you assert, there was a gap between verses 1 and 2, it would render MEANINGLESS the sabbath day, because He would have ceased creating twice, instead of ONCE on the 7th day.

Now let us look at the following passage which describes what happened on the fourth day:

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day"
(Gen.1:16-19).​

If the word "made" in this passage is referring to bringing into existence the stars on the forth day then how do you explain Genesis 1:1 which says that in the beginning He created the heavens and the earth?

The heavens is not specifically referring to the stars.

Yes, the stars are in the heavens. But they are not the heavens.

The stars are not required for the heavens to exist.

The word used for "made" in that passage is the word "asah", not "bara".

Bara is create out of nothing.

Asah is to make out of something already in existence.

I say that the LORD was dealing with the stars in the sense that He was re-arranging them so that the sun was giving light to the earth, something that was not happening at Genesis 1:2.

The sun was not created until day four, so that assertion falls flat due to a false premise.

Do you think that even though he created the heavens in the beginning that it was not until the fourth day that He created the stars?

That's literally what scripture says.

Why do you doubt what scripture says?
 

Derf

Well-known member
The LORD stopped dealing with them on the seventh day because He rested on the seveth day:

"For in six days Yahweh dealt with the heavens and earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He stopped on the seventh day. Therefore, Yahweh blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it"
(Ex.20:11-12).​

The verse doesn't say that He stopped dealing with them forever but instead He stopped because it was the day of His rest. Now let us look at the following passage which describes what happened on the fourth day:

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day"
(Gen.1:16-19).​

If the word "made" in this passage is referring to bringing into existence the stars on the forth day then how do you explain Genesis 1:1 which says that in the beginning He created the heavens and the earth?

I say that the LORD was dealing with the stars in the sense that He was re-arranging them so that the sun was giving light to the earth, something that was not happening at Genesis 1:2.

Do you think that even though he created the heavens in the beginning that it was not until the fourth day that He created the stars?

So now you're saying God doesn't deal with His people on the Sabbath day? You do realize that all of the high holy days are sabbath days. So ALL of the days God set up specifically for His people to interact with Him, you are saying He doesn't interact with his people on those days?????????

I'll list some of the rather important ones for you:
the first and seventh days of Pesach (Passover),
Shavuot; (Pentecost)
Rosh Hashanah (Trumpets);
Yom Kippur, the "Sabbath of Sabbaths" (Atonement);
and the first and eighth days of Sukkoth (Tabernacles)

Three of these are mentioned in the three mandatory trips to Jerusalem the men were supposed to make, described here:
Three times a year shall all your men appear before the Lord your God in the place that God will choose [referring presumably to the Temple in Jerusalem], on the festivals of Pesach (Passover), Shavuot (the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost), and Sukkot (the Festival of Tabernacles). They shall not appear empty handed. Each shall bring his own gift, appropriate to the blessing which the Lord your God has given you” (Deuteronomy 16:16)

So, from what you are saying, Jerry, God tells all the men of Israel to "appear before the Lord your God", but God isn't really going to be there to "deal" with them?????????

And in Hebrews 4 we read quite a bit about the sabbath rest--what God did/continues to do on His, and what it means for us, including how our salvation is compared to it:


This verse sets the context (God's resting on the seventh day of creation) by quoting Genesis:
For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh [day:] "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS"; [Heb 4:4 NASB]

This one applies it to the people of God in general:
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. [Heb 4:9 NASB]

And this one applies it to those of the people of God who have already believed in the Messiah:
For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. [Heb 4:3 NASB]

And you want to say that God won't deal with us in the sabbath rest he gives us that will last forever and ever??????????

Nor has He dealt with anyone since the foundation of the world, since His works were finished from the foundation of the world, and therefore His rest has been ongoing since then??????????

Maybe a few more. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Your position destroys the whole gospel, Jerry!!!!!!!!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Your position destroys the whole gospel, Jerry!!!!!!!!

Derf, you are ignoring what I said:

"The verse doesn't say that He stopped dealing with them forever but instead He stopped because it was the day of His rest."

You evidently don't know a thing about the LORD's sabbath rest.

Do you think that even though he created the heavens in the beginning that it was not until the fourth day that He created the stars?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Don't forget that Jerry is always correcting the Bible and Bible hopping to find one that agrees with him.

Don't forget that Right Divider teaches that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to those Jews:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Since Right Divider cannot even understand these simple words of the Lord Jesus it is evident that he cannot understand the first chapter of the book of Genesis.
 

Right Divider

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Don't forget that Right Divider teaches that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to those Jews:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Since Right Divider cannot even understand these simple words of the Lord Jesus it is evident that he cannot understand the first chapter of the book of Genesis.
Please QUOTE me Jerry. Instead of making false accusations.

I've make it clear that there are DIFFERENT types of salvation in the Bible and that eternal life is but one of those.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Please QUOTE me Jerry. Instead of making false accusations.

Do you deny that you teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works?

I've make it clear that there are DIFFERENT types of salvation in the Bible and that eternal life is but one of those.

So there are some people who are saved but yet do not have eternal life?

Now I want to quote the following two verse which speak of original creation:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited"
(Isa.45:18).​

In the beginning the LORD created the earth and formed it to be inhabited. However, sometime after He formed it to be inhabited it became "without form" and dark so that it was no longer fitted to be inhabited:


"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day" (Gen.1:5).​

What is said in "bold" in the following statement refers to the earth being inhabited before it was in a state described as being without form:

"Of the origin of our world the first chapter of Genesis tells us nothing save that 'in the beginning,' whenever that was, God 'created' it. It may be, as Tyndall said in his Belfast address, that 'for eons embracing untold millions of years, this earth has been the theatre of life and death.' But as to this the 'Mosaic narrative' is silent. It deals merely with the renewing and refurnishing of our planet as a home for man" (Sir Robert Anderson, A DOUBTER'S DOUBTS about science and religion).​

Sometime after the world was no longer habitable the LORD began to re-form both the earth and the heavens to make it habitable and that took six days. So in the debate between Christian about whether the earth is young or old I say that it is old.

I am moving this debate to the "Religion" Forum and anyone if welcome to debate the issue there.
 

Right Divider

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Do you deny that you teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works?
It depends on what kind of "saved" you're talking about. You know that there are different types of salvation in the Bible, right Jerry?

So there are some people who are saved but yet do not have eternal life?
So you really don't know that there are different types of salvation in the Bible... and yet you're a "teacher" here on TOL? :dizzy:

Now I want to quote the following two verse which speak of original creation:
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).​

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited"
(Isa.45:18).​

In the beginning the LORD created the earth and formed it to be inhabited. However, sometime after He formed it to be inhabited it became "without form" and dark so that it was no longer fitted to be inhabited:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day" (Gen.1:5).​

What is said in "bold" in the following statement refers to the earth being inhabited before it was in a state described as being without form:
"Of the origin of our world the first chapter of Genesis tells us nothing save that 'in the beginning,' whenever that was, God 'created' it. It may be, as Tyndall said in his Belfast address, that 'for eons embracing untold millions of years, this earth has been the theatre of life and death.' But as to this the 'Mosaic narrative' is silent. It deals merely with the renewing and refurnishing of our planet as a home for man" (Sir Robert Anderson, A DOUBTER'S DOUBTS about science and religion).​

Sometime after the world was no longer habitable the LORD began to re-form both the earth and the heavens to make it habitable and that took six days. So in the debate between Christian about whether the earth is young or old I say that it is old.

I am moving this debate to the "Religion" Forum and anyone if welcome to debate the issue there.
Pouring your own meaning into Isaiah is not going to win you any points.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Derf, you are ignoring what I said:

"The verse doesn't say that He stopped dealing with them forever but instead He stopped because it was the day of His rest."

You evidently don't know a thing about the LORD's sabbath rest.

Do you think that even though he created the heavens in the beginning that it was not until the fourth day that He created the stars?
Advice from Jerry:
Strain this out:
330px-Female_black_fungus_gnat.jpg

Swallow this:
152294-131-DC3E25DB.jpg
 

Derf

Well-known member
Do you think that even though he created the heavens in the beginning that it was not until the fourth day that He created the stars?

But I will answer this question. Yes! I do think so. I could be wrong about it, but it is the most obvious reading of the text, and I don't see any reason NOT to believe it. Even if we can't believe God when He tells us when He created them (are you sure you want to be in that camp, Jerry?), modern physics says light came before stars and the sun.

What is it about it that you can't swallow??
 

Stripe

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But I will answer this question. Yes! I do think so. I could be wrong about it, but it is the most obvious reading of the text, and I don't see any reason NOT to believe it. Even if we can't believe God when He tells us when He created them (are you sure you want to be in that camp, Jerry?), modern physics says light came before stars and the sun.

What is it about it that you can't swallow??
The Hebrew text about the stars on day 4 is interesting. There's one word. It might be an adjective relating to the sun and moon.
I guess that is proof he's in the dark.
:chuckle:
 

The Barbarian

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According to Barbarian's modern interpretation, there cannot be morning and evening if there's light shining on a rotating planet that is not from the sun.

For example, starlight and moonlight shine on the rotating Earth, but that is not morning or evening.
 

JudgeRightly

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For example, starlight and moonlight shine on the rotating Earth, but that is not morning or evening.
God divided the light from the darkness, and called the light day, and the darkness night.

So there was evening, and there was morning, day one.

It doesn't get much simpler than that.
 

Stripe

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For example, starlight and moonlight shine on the rotating Earth, but that is not morning or evening.

And yet, in the beginning, God said there was light. All we do is assume that the Earth was rotating. Under those conditions, there would be light and dark on Earth. And seeing God said this setup was generating "evening and morning," we are justified in rejecting your modern interpretation.
 

The Barbarian

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
According to Barbarian's modern interpretation, there cannot be morning and evening if there's light shining on a rotating planet that is not from the sun.

Barbarian observes:
For example, starlight and moonlight shine on the rotating Earth, but that is not morning or evening.

And yet, in the beginning, God said there was light. All we do is assume that the Earth was rotating. Under those conditions, there would be light and dark on Earth.

But no morning and evening, by definition. No Sun. Just as a bolide can light up the Earth, it's not morning, nor will an eclipse of the sun make an evening.

And seeing God said this setup was generating "evening and morning,"

He didn't, say that. That's man's addition to scripture. There's a way to make it work, without inventing new doctrines. The days, as most early Christian theologians admitted, were not literal ones.
 
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