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  • Originally posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    There's really not much point in having a cake if you can't eat it. It's not your fault but that phrase was silly when it first came about.

    Fear of death or punishment is hardly a motivator for sincere change either else it wouldn't come from the heart.
    Yep.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
      I'm not sure what you mean by that. How can the law teach people that God is real?
      But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
      Galatians 3:23-‬24 NKJV
      Last edited by Stripe; March 16th, 2019, 09:03 PM.
      Where is the evidence for a global flood?
      E≈mc2
      "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

      "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
      -Bob B.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Stripe View Post
        But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
        Galatians 3:23*-‬24 NKJV
        Yes, but that isn't talking about criminal laws for the carnal man of the flesh.



        I think that's where the confusion comes in.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Arthur Brain View Post
          Fear of death or punishment is hardly a motivator for sincere change either else it wouldn't come from the heart.
          when it comes to rape, murder, child molestation, etc, fear of death or punishment is enough of a motivator to control behaviors

          i don't really give a crap about sincere change that comes from the heart

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ok doser View Post
            when it comes to rape, murder, child molestation, etc, fear of death or punishment is enough of a motivator to control behaviors

            i don't really give a crap about sincere change that comes from the heart
            I don't think it controls behaviour. Not on a single one of those crimes.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ok doser View Post
              when it comes to rape, murder, child molestation, etc, fear of death or punishment is enough of a motivator to control behaviors

              i don't really give a crap about sincere change that comes from the heart
              The only thing that will control those people is an armed citizen.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                That isn't talking about criminal laws for the carnal man of the flesh.
                What other type of laws are there?
                Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                E≈mc2
                "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                -Bob B.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                  What other type of laws are there?
                  Stop trying to outsmart me, Stripe.


                  It's too easy to do, and I might be forced to play the victim card.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                    Stop trying to outsmart me.




                    I think I've outsmarted my own self.
                    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                    E≈mc2
                    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                    -Bob B.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                      Depends what we're implementing it for.

                      The law cannot save, but it does teach people that God is real.
                      Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                      I'm not sure what you mean by that. How can the law teach people that God is real?
                      Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                      But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
                      Galatians 3:23-‬24 NKJV
                      Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                      Yes, but that isn't talking about criminal laws for the carnal man of the flesh.



                      I think that's where the confusion comes in.
                      Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                      What other type of laws are there?
                      Okay, I admit my answer was dumb. Let me give this another try.

                      I was attempting to differentiate between the carnal man who breaks the law, is punished and goes on with his life, and those who experience conviction of sin which leads to faith.
                      Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

                      Breaking the law and getting caught is not what leads us to Christ. Nor is the punishment, no matter how light or heavy.

                      Rather, it's that "aha" moment when we realize that lust itself is wrong. When we see our guilt in the eyes of God...not the eyes of any man. We don't have to get arrested by the police to have this "aha" moment Paul is speaking of here. "When the commandment came"....that is referring to that moment of conviction.
                      Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                        Okay, I admit my answer was dumb.


                        Let me give this another try.


                        I was attempting to differentiate between the carnal man who breaks the law, is punished and goes on with his life, and those who experience conviction of sin which leads to faith.
                        Generally when I speak about the law, I don't care how a man reacts to receiving justice, as long as he in fact receives justice.



                        Breaking the law and getting caught is not what leads us to Christ. Nor is the punishment, no matter how light or heavy.
                        I think you're still phrasing what you believe incorrectly. The law and punishment does point people to Christ. What it doesn't do is save.

                        Rather, it's that "aha" moment when we realize that lust itself is wrong. When we see our guilt in the eyes of God...not the eyes of any man. We don't have to get arrested by the police to have this "aha" moment Paul is speaking of here. "When the commandment came"....that is referring to that moment of conviction.
                        Right.

                        For the purposes of discussion, when I speak of the law, I only ever consider it the set of commandments that are applicable today. The discussion is best when couched in the rules governments have. Do their regulations meet God's standards? Are they good laws? If they are, they help teach that God is real. If they aren't, their societies will degrade.
                        Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                        E≈mc2
                        "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                        "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                        -Bob B.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Stripe View Post




                          Generally when I speak about the law, I don't care how a man reacts to receiving justice, as long as he in fact receives justice.
                          Then wouldn't justice require that all men be found guilty?

                          Otherwise, only those who get caught receive justice.
                          Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.


                          I think you're still phrasing what you believe incorrectly. The law and punishment does point people to Christ. What it doesn't do is save.
                          True it doesn't save. But, how does it point people to Christ? Maybe if you gave me an example or two.


                          For the purposes of discussion, when I speak of the law, I only ever consider it the set of commandments that are applicable today. The discussion is best when couched in the rules governments have. Do their regulations meet God's standards? Are they good laws? If they are, they help teach that God is real. If they aren't, their societies will degrade.
                          That sounds good until you add the punishments God exacted from Israel. And the standards.....

                          God's standards were too high a bar for His own nation to keep, which is why He added the sacrifices and offerings...lest they all be put to death.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                            Then wouldn't justice require that all men be found guilty?
                            No. Because we're only talking about the law: Do not murder, do not steal, etc.

                            People should only be found guilty of the law according to their actions that breach it.

                            Otherwise, only those who get caught receive justice.
                            That's all we're capable of.

                            You're talking about God's judgement. He looks at the heart and all will face Him. A government is not able to do that.
                            Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

                            The key in that passage is "before God."

                            True it doesn't save. But, how does it point people to Christ? Maybe if you gave me an example or two.
                            Do not murder and the death penalty
                            make sense only if we are created in the image of God. Have those in place and try to justify them without appealing to the divine. The best that can be done is: "Because I say so."

                            That sounds good until you add the punishments God exacted from Israel. And the standards.....
                            We aren't Israel.

                            God's standards were too high a bar for His own nation to keep, which is why He added the sacrifices and offerings...lest they all be put to death.
                            Governments today aren't expected to judge as God will; they can't anyway.

                            They are expected to do what they can, and are authorized and obligated to do.
                            Last edited by Stripe; March 17th, 2019, 12:36 AM.
                            Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                            E≈mc2
                            "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                            "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                            -Bob B.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ok doser View Post
                              when it comes to rape, murder, child molestation, etc, fear of death or punishment is enough of a motivator to control behaviors

                              i don't really give a crap about sincere change that comes from the heart
                              Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                              The only thing that will control those people is an armed citizen.
                              "those people"???

                              those people are you and me, our children, our parents

                              we all have the seed of evil living in us, we all are prone to do evil

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                                No. Because we're only talking about the law: Do not murder, do not steal, etc.

                                People should only be found guilty of the law according to their actions that breach it.

                                That's all we're capable of.

                                You're talking about God's judgement. He looks at the heart and all will face Him. A government is not able to do that.
                                Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

                                The key in that passage is "before God."

                                Do not murder and the death penalty
                                make sense only if we are created in the image of God. Have those in place and try to justify them without appealing to the divine. The best that can be done is: "Because I say so."

                                We aren't Israel.



                                Governments today aren't expected to judge as God will; they can't anyway.

                                They are expected to do what they can, and are authorized and obligated to do.
                                I can agree with you IF you're saying what I think you're saying.

                                We can quickly clear this up.

                                Do you believe people should be forced to marry if they have sex?
                                Do you believe homosexuals should be put to death?
                                Do you believe those who commit adultery should be subject to death?
                                Do you think perjury is a death penalty offence?

                                Comment

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