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The Difference between Libertarian and Conservative.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Idolater View Post
    I don't think I buy that conservatives ever would permit murder.
    For example, conservatives opposed anti-lynching laws.

    You've suggested that perhaps conservatives don't define certain killings as murder, where libertarians are more . . . well, 'liberal,' when it comes to what constitutes murder, meaning that they are more willing to call a killing murder[/quote]

    Yep. Killing is, after all, the ultimate oppression. So it's not surprising that libertarians are more prone to oppose it than conservatives are.
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    • #47
      The difference between Libertarian and Conservative is most pronounced in Conservatives believing that sometimes aggressive war (i.e. not in direct self defense) is right and just, and in Libertarians categorically denying this.

      For instance Libertarianism considers the Civil War, the War of Northern Aggression, immoral. Conservatives believe that this, and the subsequent federal Reconstruction /occupation of the surrendered South, was right and just, and that if supported instead of ended, Reconstruction would have stamped and snuffed out every remaining smoldering ember of that fire of slavery that burned in America, until President Lincoln put it out.
      "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

      @Nee_Nihilo

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      • #48
        "For instance Libertarianism considers the Civil War, the War of Northern Aggression, immoral. Conservatives believe that this, and the subsequent federal Reconstruction /occupation of the surrendered South, was right and just, and that if supported instead of ended, Reconstruction would have stamped and snuffed out every remaining smoldering ember of that fire of slavery that burned in America, until President Lincoln put it out."

        You have to run pretty far up the ladder of abstraction to make these assertions about the differences between Conservatives and Libertarians - that "Libertarianism considers the Civil War, the War of Northern Aggression, immoral. Conservatives believe that this, and the subsequent federal Reconstruction /occupation of the surrendered South, was right and just."

        The difference in attitudes toward the "War of Northern Aggression.....and the subsequent federal Reconstruction /occupation of the surrendered South" depends upon when and where such attitudes were expressed. After the era of Political Correctness began and in the northern states who were part of the Federal Union in 1861-65 you get one attitude and before that era began and in states of the former Confederacy you get an opposite attitude.

        In addition, history does not support the hypothesis that Lincoln's main goal and purpose in fighting the war of 1861-1865 was to end slavery. Had ending slavery been the primary purpose of the Lincoln Administration, Lincoln should have been much more cautious about making enemies of factions in the South who did not support slavery, such as the Scots-Irish who were part of the warrior class of the South, but who were not necessarily allied with the Southern Ruling Elite, the elite English, who supported slavery. Not all Scots-Irish opposed slavery, but many of them refused to own slaves because of their Christian morals..

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        • #49
          Originally posted by northwye View Post
          "For instance Libertarianism considers the Civil War, the War of Northern Aggression, immoral. Conservatives believe that this, and the subsequent federal Reconstruction /occupation of the surrendered South, was right and just, and that if supported instead of ended, Reconstruction would have stamped and snuffed out every remaining smoldering ember of that fire of slavery that burned in America, until President Lincoln put it out."

          You have to run pretty far up the ladder of abstraction to make these assertions about the differences between Conservatives and Libertarians - that "Libertarianism considers the Civil War, the War of Northern Aggression, immoral. Conservatives believe that this, and the subsequent federal Reconstruction /occupation of the surrendered South, was right and just."
          I suppose that you yourself identify as a modern libertarian? Do you approve of the Civil War, the War of Northern Aggression? Do you identify as Conservative? The difference I'm trying to investigate itt is between modern Conservatives and modern libertarians. Modern Conservatives do approve of the Civil War, the War of Northern Aggression. But neither of these are classical liberals in the full sense, but both subscribe to parts of classical liberalism.
          Originally posted by northwye View Post
          The difference in attitudes toward the "War of Northern Aggression.....and the subsequent federal Reconstruction /occupation of the surrendered South" depends upon when and where such attitudes were expressed. After the era of Political Correctness began and in the northern states who were part of the Federal Union in 1861-65 you get one attitude and before that era began and in states of the former Confederacy you get an opposite attitude.
          I only see, read, and hear modern libertarians condemning the Civil War, the War of Northern Aggression, as criminal and interventionist, and in violation of modern libertarianism. If you can show some evidence that conflicts with this, please do so.
          Originally posted by northwye View Post
          In addition, history does not support the hypothesis that Lincoln's main goal and purpose in fighting the war of 1861-1865 was to end slavery. Had ending slavery been the primary purpose of the Lincoln Administration, Lincoln should have been much more cautious about making enemies of factions in the South who did not support slavery, such as the Scots-Irish who were part of the warrior class of the South, but who were not necessarily allied with the Southern Ruling Elite, the elite English, who supported slavery.
          I feel like this is too fine a point. I admit that Lincoln's most salient reason for waging war was to preserve the Union, but under no circumstances would he upon prevailing permit again Southern slavery, so it seems to me that you're making a distinction without a real difference, or 'vice versa.'
          Originally posted by northwye View Post
          Not all Scots-Irish opposed slavery, but many of them refused to own slaves because of their Christian morals..
          And that has always been a right. You have a right to believe according to your religion that slavery is permissible, or that it's wrong according to your religion. But it is wrong according to classical liberalism to practice it regardless, because it harms a party's liberty, which imposes under classical liberalism an obligation upon slaveholders /slaveowners to make restitution to slaves, under classical liberalism, that the classical liberal state is thereby authorized to help enforce on behalf of slaves.
          "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

          @Nee_Nihilo

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          • #50
            Originally posted by northwye View Post
            "For instance Libertarianism considers the Civil War, the War of Northern Aggression, immoral. Conservatives believe that this, and the subsequent federal Reconstruction /occupation of the surrendered South, was right and just, and that if supported instead of ended, Reconstruction would have stamped and snuffed out every remaining smoldering ember of that fire of slavery that burned in America, until President Lincoln put it out."

            You have to run pretty far up the ladder of abstraction to make these assertions about the differences between Conservatives and Libertarians - that "Libertarianism considers the Civil War, the War of Northern Aggression, immoral. Conservatives believe that this, and the subsequent federal Reconstruction /occupation of the surrendered South, was right and just."
            I use a different standard: "Was the Civil War constitutional?"

            It was not.
            Learn to read what is written.

            _____
            The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
            ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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            • #51
              Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
              I use a different standard: "Was the Civil War constitutional?"

              It was not.
              But then, neither was counting poc as full people for purposes of determining how many seats in Congress each state received. "Constitutionally," poc are only three-fifths of a whole person.
              "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

              @Nee_Nihilo

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                But then, neither was counting poc as full people for purposes of determining how many seats in Congress each state received. "Constitutionally," poc are only three-fifths of a whole person.
                You seem to be confused.

                All of the free "people of color" (what a stupid phrase) were counted as a whole person, and all of the indentured or enslaved people, including white people, were counted as three-fifths of a person for purposes of assigning representatives for the individual States and for calculating how much taxes each individual State would pay.

                I am sure that all "people of color" would love to pay only three-fifths of the taxes that everyone else is required to pay.
                Learn to read what is written.

                _____
                The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                  You seem to be confused.

                  All of the free "people of color" (what a stupid phrase) were counted as a whole person, and all of the indentured or enslaved people, including white people, were counted as three-fifths of a person for purposes of assigning representatives for the individual States and for calculating how much taxes each individual State would pay.
                  Ah. And how many of "the indentured or enslaved people, including white people," actually did include white people, as a proportion, would you guess? 1-to-1? 10-to-1? 100-to-1? More?
                  Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                  I am sure that all "people of color" would love to pay only three-fifths of the taxes that everyone else is required to pay.
                  Who wouldn't.
                  "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

                  @Nee_Nihilo

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                    Ah. And how many of "the indentured or enslaved people, including white people," actually did include white people, as a proportion, would you guess? 1-to-1? 10-to-1? 100-to-1? More?
                    Your question shows your racism leads you to believe that all the non-whites in the 13 colonies were slaves and nobody else was a slave.
                    Learn to read what is written.

                    _____
                    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                      Your question shows your racism leads you to believe that all the non-whites in the 13 colonies were slaves and nobody else was a slave.


                      So, no answer. Non-responsive.
                      "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

                      @Nee_Nihilo

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                        That's not how I see conservativism.
                        Understood, I only meant drunkenness itself, not drinking and driving.

                        In keeping with the OP, laws against public drunkenness are conservative, and not libertarian.
                        And so what I said is therefore lacking in sense?
                        It's sensible. I was thinking of the various consequences of drunken people. I suppose that's why most jurisdictions allow one to get drunk in one's own home without breaking a law.

                        I'm proffering a reason for why conservatives and libertarians are identical and vote in lockstep on almost everything, except for some key areas of disagreement that couldn't be more at odds.
                        Libertarians were more inclined left, years ago, when "liberal" meant "free to do as you like."

                        Yeah, the NFA, 1934. Massive infringement of the right of LGBT people to keep and bear arms. And why? Because of killers, who grew up out of the soil that was watered with Prohibition of liquor, which was brought about by 'overzealous' people---not libertarians, and not conservatives. We all at once infringed an inalienable right, and directly contravened the Bill of Rights, in the NFA.
                        Back in the day, the NRA supported gun control laws, arguing that one needed to have training and a sense of responsibility before one could be trusted with firearms. There are certainly societies where adults go about armed pretty much all the time, and they don't have murder rates much different than ours.
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                        • #57
                          This isn't a bad video. He talks about the clear distinction between what he calls liberals and conservatives, which is decided by positions on three moral matters (out of five---on two, liberals and conservatives largely agree).

                          "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

                          @Nee_Nihilo

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                            Ah. And how many of "the indentured or enslaved people, including white people," actually did include white people, as a proportion, would you guess? 1-to-1? 10-to-1? 100-to-1? More?
                            Who wouldn't.

                            in British North America (aka Canada), most were indigenous or M├ętis

                            very few negroes

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by northwye View Post
                              "For instance Libertarianism considers the Civil War, the War of Northern Aggression, immoral. Conservatives believe that this, and the subsequent federal Reconstruction /occupation of the surrendered South, was right and just, and that if supported instead of ended, Reconstruction would have stamped and snuffed out every remaining smoldering ember of that fire of slavery that burned in America, until President Lincoln put it out."

                              You have to run pretty far up the ladder of abstraction to make these assertions about the differences between Conservatives and Libertarians - that "Libertarianism considers the Civil War, the War of Northern Aggression, immoral. Conservatives believe that this, and the subsequent federal Reconstruction /occupation of the surrendered South, was right and just."

                              The difference in attitudes toward the "War of Northern Aggression.....and the subsequent federal Reconstruction /occupation of the surrendered South" depends upon when and where such attitudes were expressed. After the era of Political Correctness began and in the northern states who were part of the Federal Union in 1861-65 you get one attitude and before that era began and in states of the former Confederacy you get an opposite attitude.

                              In addition, history does not support the hypothesis that Lincoln's main goal and purpose in fighting the war of 1861-1865 was to end slavery. Had ending slavery been the primary purpose of the Lincoln Administration, Lincoln should have been much more cautious about making enemies of factions in the South who did not support slavery, such as the Scots-Irish who were part of the warrior class of the South, but who were not necessarily allied with the Southern Ruling Elite, the elite English, who supported slavery. Not all Scots-Irish opposed slavery, but many of them refused to own slaves because of their Christian morals..
                              What a hodgepodge of nothing but words. There were many Scots in the old South. Libertarians were not an exceptional group in the War Between the States. Lincoln wanted to preserve the union, and he disliked slavery. Not everyone in the South liked slavery, but felt economically stuck with it. There was something of a northern PC era, but the war brought out a more active inclination to do things, to build and make greatness.
                              Read "Lincoln Reconsidered."
                              So, what?

                              believe it!

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Ktoyou View Post
                                Lincoln wanted to preserve the union, and he disliked slavery.
                                almost as much as he disliked africans staying in America

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