THE Founding Fathers Thread of All Founding Fathers Threads

The Barbarian

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I see that the barbarian didn't notice the things that James Madison did that ACLU'ers like him cringe just thinking about:

Well, let's take a look...

James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments
20 June 1785Papers 8:298--304

To the Honorable the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia A Memorial and Remonstrance

Because the Bill implies either that the Civil Magistrate is a competent Judge of Religious Truth; or that he may employ Religion as an engine of Civil policy. The first is an arrogant pretension falsified by the contradictory opinions of Rulers in all ages, and throughout the world: the second an unhallowed perversion of the means of salvation...

Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest lustre; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy. Propose a restoration of this primitive State in which its Teachers depended on the voluntary rewards of their flocks, many of them predict its downfall. On which Side ought their testimony to have greatest weight, when for or when against their interest?...



So that Connie doesn't continue to be confused, Barbarian reminds him that Madison objected to establishment by states as well as federal government.


Connie tries another excuse:
Yes, that would be the same "Detached Memoranda" that James Madison kept secret, the same "Detached Memoranda" that wasn't made public until 1946.

See above. Madison said the same things in a public address in 1785. Nice try, though.

Here's what Congress had to say about it in 1796:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Treaty with Tripoli

Negotiated under George Washington, signed by president John Adams, and ratified by a Senate composed largely of the soldiers and statesmen of the Revolution.

So your guy loses again.
 

The Barbarian

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making it legal lynch blacks if the future corporate plantation globalists saw fit.

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aCultureWarrior

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Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Because while this thread is for debate, more importantly it's about learning the truth.

While you really need to watch that 25 minute video which gives the answer to your question, I'll give you a hint: Nick M.'s post had part of the answer to your question.

Ah, unable or unwilling to answer a simple yes or no question. got it.

So you're so set in your ways that you can't spend 25 minutes of your life to educate yourself about the Founding Fathers?

There's so much to learn in this thread, take advantage of the free education.
 

aCultureWarrior

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Secular humanists love to play up the Treaty of Tripoli, claiming that it's proof that the United States is in no way a Christian nation.

David Barton blows that myth out of the water with his article entitled:

The Treaty of Tripoli

A line from this treaty embodies the counter charge most frequently invoked (and most heavily relied upon) by critics in their attempt to disprove what history overwhelmingly documents. Asserting that America never was a Christian nation, they invoke a clause from Article XI of the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli that declared:

The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion . . .

...Critics end the sentence after the words “Christian religion,” thus placing a period in the middle of a sentence where no punctuation currently exists, stopping the sentence in mid-thought. However, when Article XI is read in its entirety and its thought concluded where the punctuation so indicates, then the article simply assures Tripoli that we were not one of the Christian nations with an inherent hostility against Muslims and that we would not allow differences in our “religious opinions” to lead to hostility.
(Significantly, even if Article XI contained nothing more than what the critics cite – i.e., “the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion” – this still would not refute America being a Christian nation since the article only refers to the federal government. Recall that while the Founders themselves openly described America as a Christian nation, they also included a constitutional prohibition against any official federal establishment of religion. Therefore, if Article XI is read as a declaration that the federal government of the United States did not establish the Christian religion, such a statement does not repudiate the fact that America was considered a Christian nation. However, the history of the Treaty, of the treaties negotiated before and after it, and the circumstances of the conflict discounts even that reading.)
Even though clauses such as Article XI in the 1797 treaty clearly demonstrate America’s efforts to distinguish itself from the historical European Christian nations that hated Muslims, the diligent diplomatic efforts proved unsuccessful – especially in the case of Tripoli (today’s Muslim Libya); terroristic attacks against American interests continued largely unabated.

...Significantly, when the treaty was signed, it acknowledged the date according to both the Christian and Muslim calendars:
Done in duplicate, in the warlike City of Algiers, in the presence of Almighty God, the 28th day of August, in the year of Jesus Christ, 1816, and in the year of the Hegira, 1231, and the 6th day of the Moon Shawal. 25


Read more: https://wallbuilders.com/treaty-of-tripoli/

Up next: Another secular humanist/Libertarian lie exposed: The true meaning behind Thomas Jefferson's quote:

"If it Neither Breaks My Leg Nor Picks My Pocket, Then What Difference is it to Me?"
 

The Barbarian

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Secular humanists love to play up the Treaty of Tripoli, claiming that it's proof that the United States is in no way a Christian nation.

David Barton blows that myth out of the water with his article entitled:

The Treaty of Tripoli


The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion . . .

As opposed to the European powers which were, and were therefore hostile to Tripoli. Barton doesn't get the distinction. It specifically rules out the establishment of Christianity in the United States.

(Significantly, even if Article XI contained nothing more than what the critics cite – i.e., “the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion” – this still would not refute America being a Christian nation since the article only refers to the federal government.

In fact states such as Virginia preceded the federal government in outlawing the evil of establishment. It is true that until Amendment XIV, states were not specifically prohibited in violating the religious rights of citizens under the Constitution.

But as you learned, the Founders specifically called establishment of religion, an evil. Madison and Jefferson, who had more to do with the Bill of Rights than anyone else, called for a wall separating religion and the state.

Barton is trying to tapdance in a tutu over this one.
 

aCultureWarrior

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The Libertarian movement is notorious for taking the Thomas Jefferson quote: "If it Neither Breaks My Leg Nor Picks My Pocket, Then What Difference is it to Me?" totally out of context. For those of you that have had the displeasure of being around Libertarians like I have, they use Jefferson's quote to make it sound like he didn't care about moral issue like homosexuality, abortion, drug use, pornography, etc. etc. (Libertarian's call them "victimless crimes", an oxymoron if there ever was one).

Here's the entire quote, which shows that Jefferson was talking about freedom of religion, not moral issues.


QUERY XVII
The different religions received into that state?
Religion


...The present state of our laws on the subject of religion is this. The convention of May 1776, in their declaration of rights, declared it to be a truth, and a natural right, that the exercise of religion should be free; but when they proceeded to form on that declaration the ordinance of government, instead of taking up every principle declared in the bill of rights, and guarding it by legislative sanction, they passed over that which asserted our religious rights, leaving them as they found them. The same convention, however, when they met as a member of the general assembly in October 1776, repealed all*acts of parliament which had rendered criminal the maintaining any opinions in matters of religion, the forbearing to repair to church, and the exercising any mode of worship; and suspended the laws giving salaries to the clergy, which suspension was made perpetual in October 1779. Statutory oppressions in religion being thus wiped away, we remain at present under those only imposed by the common law, or by our own acts of assembly. At the common law,*heresy was a capital offence, punishable by burning. Its definition was left to the ecclesiastical judges, before whom the conviction was, till the statute of the 1 El. c. 1. circumscribed it, by declaring, that nothing should be deemed heresy, but what had been so determined by authority of the canonical scriptures, or by one of the four first general councils, or by some other council having for the grounds of their declaration the express and plain words of the scriptures. Heresy, thus circumscribed, being an offence at the common law, our act of assembly of October 1777, c. 17. gives cognizance of it to the general court, by declaring, that the jurisdiction of that court shall be general in all matters at the common law. The execution is by the writ*De haeretico comburendo. By our own act of assembly of 1705, c. 30, if a person brought up in the Christian religion denies the being of a God, or the Trinity, or asserts there are more Gods than one, or denies the Christian religion to be true, or the scriptures to be of divine authority, he is punishable on the first offence by incapacity to hold any office or employment ecclesiastical, civil, or military; on the second by disability to sue, to take any gift or legacy, to be guardian, executor, or administrator, and by three years imprisonment, without bail. A father's right to the custody of his own children being founded in law on his right of guardianship, this being taken away, they may of course be severed from him, and put, by the authority of a court, into more orthodox hands. This is a summary view of that religious slavery, under which a people have been willing to remain, who have lavished their lives and fortunes for the establishment of their civil freedom. (1) The error seems not sufficiently eradicated, that the operations of the mind, as well as the acts of the body, are subject to the coercion of the laws. But our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted to them. The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. If it be said, his testimony in a court of justice cannot be relied on, reject it then, and be the stigma on him. Constraint may make him worse by making him a hypocrite, but it will never make him a truer man. It may fix him obstinately in his errors, but will not cure them. Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error. Give a loose to them, they will support the true religion, by bringing every false one to their tribunal, to the test of their investigation. They are the natural enemies of error, and of error only. Had not the Roman government permitted free enquiry, Christianity could never have been introduced.

Read more: http://www.revolutionary-war-and-be...omas-jefferson-1781-1782-2.html#ixzz2eArWRhvE

536e071684b1211abf9fd132ea670990--freedom-thomas-jefferson.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.co...f9fd132ea670990--freedom-thomas-jefferson.jpg
 

aCultureWarrior

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But as you learned, the Founders specifically called establishment of religion, an evil.

Yes, I learned long ago (I believe it was in 9th grade history) that the Founding Fathers left a country that had a State Church, i.e. the Church of England and didn't want their new government to mandate a State Church, a State denomination.

More on the US Capitol building (see page 1 for another video by Barton on the US Capitol
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...hers-Threads&p=5056044&viewfull=1#post5056044 ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bORMIMdHzHs
 

The Barbarian

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Yes, I learned long ago (I believe it was in 9th grade history) that the Founding Fathers left a country that had a State Church, i.e. the Church of England and didn't want their new government to mandate a State Church, a State denomination.

More than that, they didn't want religion established at all. Hence the language of the first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Notice it doesn't prohibit establishment of a specific religion; it prohibits establishment of religion entirely.

And at the same time that it grants us freedom from religion if we want nothing to do with it, it also prohibits the state from any involvement limiting religion, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Hence the "wall of separation" mentioned by the Founders, and the declaration that the United States is not founded on Christianity.

So how could most of the Founders be devout Christians and still advocate this separation? It's because they recognized the importance of religion in making us decent citizens, but they also recognized that state-sponsored religion had the opposite effect, as Madison wrote in "Against Religious Assessments."
 

Eeset

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

People tend to overlook that last clause. :(
 

aCultureWarrior

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Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Yes, I learned long ago (I believe it was in 9th grade history) that the Founding Fathers left a country that had a State Church, i.e. the Church of England and didn't want their new government to mandate a State Church, a State denomination.

More than that, they didn't want religion established at all. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,..

i.e. the Federal government will not create a State Church. Let's talk about the respective States now:

Maryland State Constitution, Article XXXIII, in 1776 stated: “That, as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to him; all persons, professing the Christian religion, are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty...”

Delaware State Constitution Oath of Office, 1776: “I _______, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, One God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old Testament and New Testament to be given by Divine Inspiration.”

North Carolina Constitution, 1776: “That no person, who shall deny the being of God or the truth of the Protestant religion, or the divine authority of the Old or New Testaments …., shall be capable of holding any office or place of trust or profit in the civil department within this State.”

Pennsylvania Constitution in 1776 required oath for elected representatives: “I do believe in one God, the Creator and Governor of the Universe, the rewarder of the good and punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration.”

New Jersey Constitution (1776): “That there shall be no establishment of any one religious sect in this Province, in preference to another; and that no Protestant inhabitant of this Colony shall be denied the enjoyment of any civil right, merely on account of his religious principles....”

Georgia Constitution in 1777 allowed for citizens to have free exercise of their religion, but also required that Representatives be of the Protestant religion.

South Carolina Constitution, 1778, requirements for a state authorized church: “That there is one eternal God, and a future state of rewards and punishments. That God is publicly to be worshipped. That the Christian religion is the true religion. That the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are of divine inspiration, and are the rule of faith and practice”.

The Massachusetts Constitution in 1780 mandated that all elected officials take an oath of office that included their professing the Christian faith.

New Hampshire Constitution in 1784 required all elected officials to be of the Protestant (Christian) religion.

Connecticut Constitution (1818). Article I. Section 4.: “No preference shall be given by law to any Christian sect or mode of worship.”
https://sites.google.com/site/americachristiannation/home/religion-in-the-13-colinies


Hence the "wall of separation" mentioned by the Founders,..

"Separation" as in church services being held in the nation's Capitol? Congress allocating funds for Bibles and Chaplains? A National Day of Prayer? (etc. etc. etc.)

WHEREAS the Congress of the United States, by a joint resolution of the two Houses, have signified a request, that a day may be recommended, to be observed by the People of the United States, with religious solemnity, as a day of pubic
Humiliation, and Prayer; and whereas such a recommendation will enable the
several religious denominations and societies so disposed, to offer, at one and the same time, their common vows and adorations to Almighty God, on the solemn occasion produced by the war, in which he has been pleased to permit the injustice of a foreign power to involve these United States;

I do therefore recommend the third Thursday in August next, as a convenient day to be set apart for the devout purposes of rendering to the Sovereign of the Universe and the Benefactor of mankind, the public homage due to his holy attributes; of acknowledging the transgressions which might justly provoke the manifestations of His divine displeasures; of seeking His merciful forgiveness, His assistance in the great duties of repentance and amendment; and especially of offering fervent supplications, that in the present season of calamity and war, He would take the American People under his peculiar care and protection; that he would guide their public councils, animate their patriotism, and bestow His blessing on
their arms; that He would inspire all nations with a love of justice and of concord, and with a reverence for the unerring precept of our holy religion, to do to others as they would require others to do to them; and finally, that , turning the hearts of our enemies from the violence and injustice which sway their councils against us, He would hasten a restoration of the blessings of Peace.
Given at Washington the 9th day of July, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and twelve.
James Madison.
https://wallbuilders.com/proclamation-humiliation-prayer-1812-2/

So how could most of the Founders be devout Christians and still advocate this separation?

As we've seen, there was no "separation" of God and Jesus Christ from the federal government, only restrictions against Congress creating a State Church, i.e. a National Christian denomination.
 

The Barbarian

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Barbarian notes that the first amendment bans any establishment of religion whatever, with no exceptions.


Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior

i.e. the Federal government will not create a State Church.
No, that's wrong. The founders wanted a "wall of separation" between church and state, as Jefferson and Madison put it. And as you should know, they were mostly responsible for drafting the Bill of Rights.


Let's talk about the respective States now:

Yes, let's. You see, the flaw in the Bill of Rights was that it only applied to the Federal government, although some states, like Virginia also granted religious freedom in their charters/constitutions. However, the 14th Amendment requires states to also follow the Bill of Rights, so any state violating religious freedom in any way had to comply with the same freedoms as the federal government.

That we've sometimes violated the Constitution in our laws and customs is not license to continue to do it. That argument has been tried repeatedly, and the courts have rejected it.
 

ok doser

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Barbarian notes that the first amendment bans any establishment of religion whatever, with no exceptions...


Well, no

You're leaving out the following:

** By congress

** By making a law

** A law that respects an establishment of religion


Period
 

Jonahdog

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Well, no

You're leaving out the following:

** By congress

** By making a law

** A law that respects an establishment of religion


Period

Then the question is, what does that mean. Whenever the state supports one religious belief over another it is the equivalent of establishing a religion. it is a slippery slope. the same slippery slope that the right wing gun nuts always ***** about.
 

rexlunae

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Yes, some of them owned slaves (liberals are the first to mention that, so I thought I'd get that subject out of the way).

Founding Fathers expert David Barton talks about how the 3/5th's clause in the Constitution was anti slavery.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUVONzyPRhU

Now that it's been established that Frederick Douglass was a big fan of the Constitution's anti slavery clause, I guess we can leave that subject behind.

First of all, David Barton isn't a historian. And his argument is silly. Yes, there is an inversion in the expectation, in that reducing how you count slaves in the census reduced the Slave Power, whereas now this reduction is often seen as a sign of reducing the valuation of the slaves. But, far from being an anti-slavery statement, it was a compromise, somewhere between the pro-slavery and anti-slavery positions, but closer to the pro-slavery side. But it was perverse that a slave contributed to the power of their masters.
 

aCultureWarrior

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The founders wanted a "wall of separation" between church and state, as Jefferson and Madison put it. And as you should know, they were mostly responsible for drafting the Bill of Rights.

As I pointed out in my above post, actions speak for themselves.

"Separation" as in church services being held in the nation's Capitol Building? Congress allocating funds for Bibles and Chaplains? A National Day of Prayer? (etc. etc. etc.)

In God We Trust: America’s Historic Sites Reveal Her Christian Foundations

A tour of historic sites in America, and particularly the Capital city, reveals that America was a nation birthed by men who had a firm reliance upon Almighty God and His Son Jesus Christ. Inscribed upon our buildings, monuments, and national symbols is our nation’s faith in God. A sampling of this evidence seen in some of our monuments and buildings in Washington, D.C., follows.
The Library of Congress
Within the Great Hall of the Jefferson Building are two climate controlled cases, one contains a Gutenberg Bible and the other a hand-copied Giant Bible of Mainz. The display of these two bibles is very appropriate because, in the words of President Andrew Jackson, “The Bible is the rock upon which our republic rests.” Many Biblical inscriptions can be found on the ceiling and walls including: “The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not”; and “Wisdom is the principal thing therefore get wisdom and withall thy getting, get understanding.”
In the Main Reading Room are statues and quotes representing fields of knowledge. Moses and Paul represent Religion, with the inscription, “What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God.” Science is represented by, “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth His handywork.” History: “One God, one law, one element, and one far-off divine event, to which the whole creation moves.”
The Supreme Court
The Biblical foundation of American law is evidenced throughout this building. On the outside East Pediment is a marble relief of Moses holding tablets containing the Ten Commandments. Engraved on the oak doors at the entrance of the Court Chamber are the Roman numerals I through X, and above the heads of the Justices is a carved marble relief with a large stone tablet containing I through X in between two allegorical figures, representing The Power of Government and The Majesty of the Law (each set of numerals represents ancient law, that is the 10 commandments). In the main foyer are marble busts of previous Chief Justices, many of
whom were Christians such as John Jay, the first Chief Justice, and John Marshall, the most prominent in the early years. Each day the Court is in session, a crier ends his call announcing the formal opening by declaring, “God save the United States and the Honorable Court.”
The Capitol Building
All of the eight large paintings in the Rotunda present aspects of our Christian history. A few include: The Landing of Columbus — Columbus said he was convinced to sail because “it was the Lord who put into my mind” and that “the Gospel must still be preached to so many lands.” The Baptism of Pocahontas — This shows the baptism of one of the first converts in the Virginia colony . The Virginia charter said they came to propagate the “Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true knowledge and worship of God.” Departure of the Pilgrims from Holland — shows the Pilgrims observing a day of prayer and fasting. William Brewster is holding an open Bible upon which is written: “The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” “God With Us” is written on the ship’s sail.
Also in the Rotunda are carved reliefs including: Penn’s Treaty with the Indians — Penn called his colony “a holy experiment” and said of it that “my God that has given it to me . . . will, I believe, bless and make it the seed of a nation.” The Landing of the Pilgrims — “having undertaken for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian faith.”
In God We Trust, our national motto, is inscribed in letters of gold behind the Speaker’s rostrum in the House Chamber. Also in this chamber, above the central Gallery door, is a marble relief of Moses, the greatest of 23 noted law-givers (and the only one full-faced). In 1867 the House Chamber was the meeting place for the largest Church congregation in America. This was not unusual for Churches had been meeting in the Capitol from its beginning.
Statues of many early leaders are displayed throughout the Capitol. Most of these people were Christians (and many were ministers), including George Washington, James Garfield, Samuel Adams, Rev. Peter Muhlenberg, Rev. Roger Williams, Rev. Marcus Whitman, Daniel Webster, Lew Wallace, Rev. Jason Lee, John Winthrop, Rev. Jonathan Trumbull, Roger Sherman, and Francis Willard. Many plaques in the Capitol declare our faith as well, including: In God We Trust, placed above the Senate main door; “What hath God Wrought!” — the first message sent over the telegraph in 1844, found on the Samuel F.B. Morse Plaque outside old Supreme Court Chamber.
The Prayer Room contains an open Bible sitting on an altar in front of a stained window showing Washington in earnest prayer. Behind him is etched the first verse of Psalm 16, “Preserve me, O God, for in Thee do I put my trust.”
The National Archives
A bronze design on the floor of the Rotunda contains the Ten Commandments with Senate and Justice to the right of them, which symbolizes that our legal system has its origin in God’s law. The two most important civil documents on display reflect Biblical principles of government.
These are: The Declaration of Independence (1776) — contains such ideas as man is created in the Divine image, all men are equal, man is superior to the state, the state exists for man. The United States Constitution (1787) — Christian ideas include: the reign of law; trial by jury of peers under law; Creator endowed rights, not government granted; Christian self-government; religious freedom; private property rights.
The Washington Monument
From the tallest structure in Washington a message of Praise be to God goes forth. Engraved upon the aluminum capstone on the top of this 555 foot monument is Laus Deo. Inside the structure are carved tribute blocks with many Godly messages: “Holiness to the Lord,” “Search the Scriptures,” “The memory of the just is blessed,” “May Heaven to this union continue its beneficence,” In God We Trust,” “Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it.”
The White House
An inscription by the first President to inhabit the White House, John Adams, is cut into the marble facing of the State Dining Room fireplace. It reads: “I pray Heaven to Bestow the Best of Blessings on THIS HOUSE and on All that shall hereafter Inhabit it. May none but Honest and Wise Men ever rule under this Roof.” Each President has attended church, associated with the Christian faith, taken the oath of office with their hand on a Bible, and referred to God in their inaugural addresses.
http://providencefoundation.com/?page_id=1962

So much for "Separation of God and State".
 
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