THE Founding Fathers Thread of All Founding Fathers Threads

[Jonahdog]

I see that you have no desire to attempt to refute the information on Jefferson that David Barton presented in the 25 minute video that I posted above. You are wise.



Do you wonder why, like I do, a Christian college would allow an LGBTQ activist like Warren Throckmorton to teach impressionable young minds, especially the minds of Christian youth?

http://americansfortruth.com/2010/0...on-blasted-for-backpedaling-on-homosexuality/
http://americansfortruth.com/2010/0...es-and-throckmortons-sexual-identity-therapy/

Now that it's been established that Warren Throckmorton is a God-hating liberal, what else would you like to talk about?

Ah yes, well, when you use hate filled and ignorant internet sites as a basis for your beliefs. And you do have a certain fixation on sodomy, n'est pas?

So ACW, wallow in your hate, fear and ignorance. Yes, yes, anyone with with a real advanced academic degree is suspect, probably a gay or lesbian unless they toe the right wing Christian Bible thumping line. I get that. In various ways it is SOP here.

In the meantime, I will continue to accept the fact that Barton is a fraud. You will continue to believe he is a trained and knowledgeable and truthful historian with something worthwhile to say. Hey, that's what makes a horse race, right?

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Now that it's been established that Warren Throckmorton is a God-hating liberal, what else would you like to talk about?

Ah yes, well, when you use hate filled and ignorant internet sites as a basis for your beliefs. And you do have a certain fixation on sodomy, n'est pas?

So ACW, wallow in your hate, fear and ignorance. Yes, yes, anyone with with a real advanced academic degree is suspect, probably a gay or lesbian unless they toe the right wing Christian Bible thumping line. I get that. In various ways it is SOP here.

(It appears that Jonahdog wants to talk about me).

In the meantime, I will continue to accept the fact that Barton is a fraud. You will continue to believe he is a trained and knowledgeable and truthful historian with something worthwhile to say. Hey, that's what makes a horse race, right?

I'll continue to seek the truth until someone else provides evidence that it isn't true.

While I'll continue to use expert Founding Fathers era historian David Barton as a source in this on going thread, there are many others to look to who will show their deep Christian based roots.

For instance: This 1,000 + page book written by a Christian pastor and published in 1864 is an excellent source.

http://www.earlychristianamerica.com/images/BKH-5708.jpg

More on "The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States" to come.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

While I paid $40+ dollars several years ago so that "The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States" would be part of my personal home library, anyone interested in reading about our Founding Fathers and our nation's Christian heritage can read it for free here.

https://archive.org/stream/Christia...fe_and_Character_of_the_Civi#page/n5/mode/2up

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Excellent article.

Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings: The Search for Truth
https://wallbuilders.com/thomas-jefferson-sally-hemings-search-truth/

 

[ok doser]

Thomas jefferson dint really own slaves?

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Thomas jefferson dint really own slaves?

I betcha didn't know that...

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...hers-Threads&p=5055460&viewfull=1#post5055460

I didn't.

 

[Jonahdog]

Are you, and Barton, claiming Jefferson did not own slaves?

 

[The Barbarian]

:rotfl:

What makes him an "expert"?

He agrees with Connie's misunderstandings of the intent of the founders.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to the Danbury Baptists

Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.
James Madison Detached Memoranda

 

[The Barbarian]

How can you refute so many founding fathers that speak directly of Jesus Christ?

It's a good question. The founders were not hostile to religion. Indeed, a number of them thought that a belief in God was essential to a civilized nations.

What they wanted was for government to stay completely out of religion. Hence, the Treaty of Tripoli, which declared the United States to not be founded on Christian Religion, and the declaration by Jefferson and Madison that the Constitution calls for a separation of church and state.

 

[The Barbarian]

I would be interested in seeing his CV but I'll bet he does not like to publish that, it would allow people to check.

He graduated from Oral Roberts U. Oral Roberts, as you may remember, was the televangelist who announced that if people didn't send him (large amount of money), God was going to kill him.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Are you, and Barton, claiming Jefferson did not own slaves?

From Page 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0pSw77gm8

Did you know that about Jefferson? (I didn't). Why don't you liberals ever talk about that?

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Thomas Jefferson, Letter to the Danbury Baptists

Letters Between the Danbury Baptists and Thomas Jefferson
https://wallbuilders.com/letters-danbury-baptists-thomas-jefferson/

The Separation of Church and State

In short, the inclusion of protection for the “free exercise of religion” in the constitution suggested to the Danbury Baptists that the right of religious expression was government-given (thus alienable) rather than God-given (hence inalienable), and that therefore the government might someday attempt to regulate religious expression. This was a possibility to which they strenuously objected-unless, as they had explained, someone’s religious practice caused him to “work ill to his neighbor.”
Jefferson understood their concern; it was also his own. In fact, he made numerous declarations about the constitutional inability of the federal government to regulate, restrict, or interfere with religious expression...
https://wallbuilders.com/separation-church-state/

Now that the continuous lies about the letters between the Dansbury Baptists and Thomas Jefferson have been exposed, let's see where barbarians ACLU get's the term "Separation of Church and State" from:

Religion must be of no concern to the state,” wrote Lenin, “and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority” (Poln. sobr. soch., 5th ed., vol. 12, p. 143). Under Soviet power the separation of church and state was proclaimed as one of the first acts of the Soviet government, in a decree of the Council of People’s Commissars of the RSFSR dated Jan. 23 (Feb. 5), 1918. It was subsequently confirmed in the 1918 Constitution of the RSFSR, the constitutions of the other Union republics, and the constitution of the USSR adopted in 1936. The separation of church and state is one of the constitutional principles of other socialist countries as well. In socialist states citizens are guaranteed the right not to belong to any religion and the right to conduct antireligious propaganda. No religion enjoys any privileges or is promoted by the state in any way. Religious associations are regarded as private organizations, autonomous in their internal organization and in all matters involving their faiths. In the USSR a special government agency was established to oversee application of the laws dealing with religious associations and to take the necessary measures to ensure freedom of conscience for Soviet citizens. This agency is the Council on the Affairs of Religious Denominations, under the jurisdiction of the Council of Ministers of the USSR.

In those bourgeois countries where separation of church and state has been formally instituted, the church remains in actuality part of the bourgeois state apparatus and has considerable influence. The constitutions of a number of bourgeois states, such as Sweden and Norway, recognize a particular religion as the officially established religion in that country, thus legitimizing the privileged position of a particular church.
http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Church+and+State,+Separation+of

 

[Nick M]

Thomas jefferson dint really own slaves?

In the Declaration of Independence, the Fathers accused GB and the King to assent their laws. Meaning the Fathers, the Yankees, passed no human trafficking laws, aka anti-slavery laws. The King would not sign it into law making it legal lynch blacks, if the future corporate plantation globalists saw fit.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.
James Madison Detached Memoranda

As Barton explains in this article, James Madison's views are complicated. That being said: let's look at his early days:

Madison even desired that all public officials – including Bradford – would declare
openly and publicly their Christian beliefs and testimony:
I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal
enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way. [2]
Second,
Madison was a member of the committee that authored the 1776 Virginia Bill of Rights and approved of its clause declaring that:
It is the mutual duty*of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.[3]
(emphasis added)
Third,
Madison’s proposed wording for the First Amendment demonstrates that he opposed only the establishment of a federal denomination, not public religious activities. His proposal declared:
The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established. [4]*(emphasis added)
(Madison reemphasized that position throughout the debates. [5])
Fourth,
in 1789, Madison served on the Congressional committee which authorized, approved, and selected paid Congressional chaplains. [6]
Fifth,
in 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided a Bible Society in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible. [7]
Sixth,
throughout his Presidency (1809-1816), Madison endorsed public and official religious expressions by issuing several proclamations for national days of prayer, fasting, and thanksgiving. [8]
These were the early actions of Madison. In later life Madison retreated from many of these positions, even declaring in his “Detached Memoranda” his belief that having paid chaplains and issuing presidential prayer proclamations were unconstitutional. Recent Courts have made a point of citing Madison’s “Detached Memoranda” in arguing against public religious expressions. [9]
Significantly, the “Detached Memoranda” was “discovered” in 1946 in the papers of Madison biographer William Cabell Rives and was first published more than a century after Madison’s death by Elizabeth Fleet in the October 1946 William & Mary Quarterly. In that work, Madison expressed his opposition to many of his own earlier beliefs and practices and set forth a new set of beliefs formerly unknown even to his closest friends. Since Madison never made public or shared with his peers his sentiments found in the “Detached Memoranda,” and since his own public actions were at direct variance with this later writing, it is difficult to argue that it reflects the Founders’ intent toward religion.
https://wallbuilders.com/james-madison-religion-public/

It's easy to understand why secular humanists HATE David Barton like they do, he shows America's true Christian heritage.

 

[Jonahdog]

From Page 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0pSw77gm8

Did you know that about Jefferson? (I didn't). Why don't you liberals ever talk about that?

Why don't you answer the question, are you and Barton claiming that Jefferson did not own slaves? Yes or no.

 

[Jonahdog]

In the Declaration of Independence, the Fathers accused GB and the King to assent their laws. Meaning the Fathers, the Yankees, passed no human trafficking laws, aka anti-slavery laws. The King would not sign it into law making it legal lynch blacks if the future corporate plantation globalists saw fit.

You should reread what you wrote before you hit send. That makes little sense.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Why don't you answer the question, are you and Barton claiming that Jefferson did not own slaves? Yes or no.

Because while this thread is for debate, more importantly it's about learning the truth.

While you really need to watch that 25 minute video which gives the answer to your question, I'll give you a hint: Nick M.'s post had part of the answer to your question.

 

[The Barbarian]

Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.
James Madison Detached Memoranda

As Barton explains in this article, James Madison's views are complicated.

Translation: "I don't like what Jefferson, Madison, and other founders said, so I'll call it "complicated" and then try to convince you that they didn't mean what they said."

That being said: let's look at some other attempts:

Madison even desired that all public officials – including Bradford – would declare
openly and publicly their Christian beliefs and testimony:

I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.

You left out the part where he said that public officials should do this. Do you think anyone doesn't know why?

Madison’s proposed wording for the First Amendment demonstrates that he opposed only the establishment of a federal denomination, not public religious activities.

No, that's wrong, too. Let's see what he said about states and religious freedom...

Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history. (See the cases in which negatives were put by J. M. on two bills passd by Congs and his signature withheld from another. See also attempt in Kentucky for example, where it was proposed to exempt Houses of Worship from taxes.
James Madison, Detached Memoranda

As you see, Madison also considered it a violation if a state established religion. Remember his statement in Against Religious Assessments where he represented all governmental establishment of religion as evil.

Barton, as you know, has a history of bad scholarship and dishonesty in his work. Small wonder he has so few people willing to follow him.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

I see that the barbarian didn't notice the things that James Madison did that ACLU'ers like him cringe just thinking about:

*In 1789, Madison served on the Congressional committee which authorized, approved, and selected paid Congressional chaplains.

*in 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided a Bible Society in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.

*throughout his Presidency (1809-1816), Madison endorsed public and official religious expressions by issuing several proclamations for national days of prayer, fasting, and thanksgiving.

So that the barbarian doesn't continue to be confused, aCW links the definition of federal and national:

federal: pertaining to or of the nature of a union of states under a central government distinct from the individual governments of the separate states, as in federal government; federal system.

national:
1.of, relating to, or maintained by a nation as an organized whole or independent political unit:
national affairs.

2. owned, preserved, or maintained by the federal government:

James Madison, Detached Memoranda

Yes, that would be the same "Detached Memoranda" that James Madison kept secret, the same "Detached Memoranda" that wasn't made public until 1946.

Significantly, the “Detached Memoranda” was “discovered” in 1946 in the papers of Madison biographer William Cabell Rives and was first published more than a century after Madison’s death by Elizabeth Fleet in the October 1946 William & Mary Quarterly. In that work, Madison expressed his opposition to many of his own earlier beliefs and practices and set forth a new set of beliefs formerly unknown even to his closest friends. Since Madison never made public or shared with his peers his sentiments found in the “Detached Memoranda,” and since his own public actions were at direct variance with this later writing, it is difficult to argue that it reflects the Founders’ intent toward religion.

 

[Jonahdog]

Because while this thread is for debate, more importantly it's about learning the truth.

While you really need to watch that 25 minute video which gives the answer to your question, I'll give you a hint: Nick M.'s post had part of the answer to your question.

Ah, unable or unwilling to answer a simple yes or no question. got it.