Personal Freedom vs. Public Welfare

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
Sweden has less deaths and less cases of the kung flu than the lockdown states ,
but those lockdown states maybe closer to herd immunity , maybe that's what is going on in NY

Once again...I made it crystal clear to you why that is: Population density being more than double in "the lockdown states", among other factors. And it's not as though Sweden didn't take any measures at all to mitigate the spread of the virus. They closed high schools and universities, and required working from home where possible and avoiding public transport. There's also been a ban on gatherings of more than 50 people, restrictions on visiting care homes, and a shift to table-only service in bars and restaurants, and established social distancing guidelines. Even so, the death toll from Sweden's outbreak is now the fifth-worst in the world, per capita. Sweden's mortality rate from the coronavirus is now 30% higher than that of the United States when adjusted for population size. - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sweden-...with-covid-19/

naming and giving out private medical information is doxxing

And all of a sudden you've become a card-carrying member of the ACLU.
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
Try blowing out a candle while wearing a mask. Then maybe you'll understand.

Dozer's dim brain can't understand that viruses don't come out of people's lungs all by their lonesome selves. They travel on much larger droplets of moisture, and masks are very effective at catching and trapping those droplets. Dozer can be told this, but in his nearly brain-dead state he still won't be able to figure it out.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Try blowing out a candle while wearing a mask.

Gee, I don't remember that being part of ANY procedure when I was working in Microbiology or when I was working on an infectious disease ward.

But apparently it's a popular thing at the moment on Facebook and YouTube and television so it it must mean something, eh?
 

chair

Well-known member
Gee, I don't remember that being part of ANY procedure when I was working in Microbiology or when I was working on an infectious disease ward.

But apparently it's a popular thing at the moment on Facebook and YouTube and television so it it must mean something, eh?

The point or the general public wearing masks is to reduce the probability of the mask wearer infecting somebody else.In an infectious disease ward, the doctors and nurses need to protect themselves.A completely different situation.

Also- note user name's comment above.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
The point or the general public wearing masks is to reduce the probability of the mask wearer infecting somebody else.

And what is the estimated reduction in that probability?
Is it 90% ?
Is it 75% ?
Is it 50% reduction?

Or is it 3% ?


In an infectious disease ward, the doctors and nurses need to protect themselves.

That's half of the reason why medical staff wear masks - to protect themselves. The other half is to protect the patient.

Also- note user name's comment above.

No. He's on ignore.
 

chair

Well-known member
And what is the estimated reduction in that probability?
Is it 90% ?
Is it 75% ?
Is it 50% reduction?

Or is it 3% ?

That's half of the reason why medical staff wear masks - to protect themselves. The other half is to protect the patient.

No. He's on ignore.

I've got some links below that are relevant, but after thinking about this, I realize that you don't WANT to understand. You decided that masks are useless and bad, and will throw out any evidence that suggest that you are plain wrong.


https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08...s-work-act-now

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2768533

[url]https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/...cid=mm6928e2_w

This last one might get your attention.
[/URL]
Among 139 clients exposed to two symptomatic hair stylists with confirmed COVID-19 while both the stylists and the clients wore face masks, no symptomatic secondary cases were reported; among 67 clients tested for SARS-CoV-2, all test results were negative. Adherence to the community’s and company’s face-covering policy likely mitigated spread of SARS-CoV-2.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Hang on- you're OK with social distancing, but not masks? Why?

I'm heading off to work but I'll come back to this. Briefly masks are counterproductive for Americans. They work fine for compliant Asian populations who welcome authoritarian governmental edicts.
 

chair

Well-known member
I'm heading off to work but I'll come back to this. Briefly masks are counterproductive for Americans. They work fine for compliant Asian populations who welcome authoritarian governmental edicts.

So you admit that masks work, despite all your posturing. You are just saying that Americans can't get used to the idea, so there's no point in trying...
 

Gary K

New member
Banned
Face masks don't work. No study proves they work and the top epidemiologists in the world say they don't. 200,000 people must wear masks for one week to stop a single case of coronavirus. So, for every 1,000.000 people wearing masks it stops 5 cases a week. The benefit is so small it is statistically non-existent.

Denmark boasts one of the lowest COVID-19 death rates in the world. As of August 4, the Danes have suffered 616 COVID-19 deaths, according to figures from Johns Hopkins University.

That’s less than one-third of the number of Danes who die from pneumonia or influenza in a given year.

Despite this success, Danish leaders recently found themselves on the defensive. The reason is that Danes aren’t wearing face masks, and local authorities for the most part aren’t even recommending them.

This prompted Berlingske, the country’s oldest newspaper, to complain that Danes had positioned themselves “to the right of Trump.”
“The whole world is wearing face masks, even Donald Trump,” Berlingske pointed out.​

This apparently did not sit well with Danish health officials.


2020-08-07_14-45-29.jpg


From left to right: Professor Henning Bundgaard, Tamara van Ark, Anders Tegnell | Composite image by FEE (Rigshospitalet, Wikimedia Commons)

They responded by noting there is little conclusive evidence that face masks are an effective way to limit the spread of respiratory viruses.

All these countries recommending face masks haven’t made their decisions based on new studies,” said Henning Bundgaard, chief physician at Denmark’s Rigshospitale, according to Bloomberg News.​

Denmark is not alone.

Despite a global stampede of mask-wearing, data show that 80-90 percent of people in Finland and Holland say they “never” wear masks when they go out, a sharp contrast to the 80-90 percent of people in Spain and Italy who say they “always” wear masks when they go out.

Dutch public health officials recently explained why they’re not recommending masks.
"From a medical point of view, there is no evidence of a medical effect of wearing face masks, so we decided not to impose a national obligation," said Medical Care Minister Tamara van Ark.​

Others, echoing statements similar to the US Surgeon General from early March, said masks could make individuals sicker and exacerbate the spread of the virus.

The rest of this article can be read here.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
So you admit that masks work ...

Not in the way that you insist. Hospital studies have proven it. The type of masks that are being mandated to be worn by the general population are virtually worthless in terms of stopping the spread of the virus from an infected individual. Their utility lies in being a constant reminder to follow the more effective protocols of social distancing, frequent hand washing and Don't touch your face!
 

Gary K

New member
Banned
Here is a study done by a researcher who looks at a variety of studies done on masks. The conclusion? That masks do not work for stopping respiratory infections.

Masks and respirators do not work.There have been extensive randomized controlled trial (RCT) studies, and meta-analysis reviews of RCT studies, which all show that masks and respirators do not work to prevent respiratory influenza-like illnesses, or respiratory illnesses believed to be transmitted by droplets and aerosol particles.Furthermore, the relevant known physics and biology, which I review, are such that masks and respirators should not work. It would be a paradox if masks and respirators worked, given what we know about viral respiratory diseases: The main transmission path is long-residence-time aerosol particles(<2.5μm), which are too fine to be blocked, and the minimum-infective-dose is smaller than one aerosol particle. The present paper about masks illustrates the degree to which governments, the mainstream media, and institutional propagandists can decide to operate in a science vacuum, or select only incomplete science that serves their interests. Such recklessness is also certainly the case with the current global lockdown of over 1 billion people, an unprecedented experiment in medical and political history.

Review of the Medical Literature


Here are key anchor points to the extensive scientific literature that establishes that wearing surgical masks and respirators (e.g., “N95”) does not reduce the risk of contracting a verified illness:

Jacobs, J. L. et al. (2009)“Use of surgical face masks to reduce the incidence of the common cold among health care workers in Japan: A randomized controlled trial”, American Journal of Infection Control, Volume 37, Issue 5, 417 -419.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19216002N95-masked health-care workers (HCW) were significantly more likely to experience headaches. Face mask use in HCW was not demonstrated to provide benefit in terms of cold symptoms or getting colds.

Cowling, B.et al. (2010)Face masks to prevent transmission of influenza virus: A systematic review”,Epidemiology and Infection, 138(4), 449-456. doi:10.1017/S0950268809991658https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/face-masks-to-prevent-transmission-of-influenza-virus-a-systematic-review/64D368496EBDE0AFCC6639CCC9D8BC05None of the studies reviewed showed a benefit from wearing a mask, in either HCW or community members in households (H). See summary Tables 1 and 2 therein

bin
-Reza et al. (2012)The use of masks and respirators to prevent transmission of influenza: a systematic review of the scientific evidence”, Influenza and Other Respiratory Viruses6(4), 257267.https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1750-2659.2011.00307.xThere were 17 eligible studies.... None of the studies established a conclusive relationship between mask ⁄ respirator use and protection against influenza infection.

Smith, J.D. et al.
(2016)Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks in protecting health care workers from acute respiratory infection: a systematic review and meta-analysis”, CMAJMar 2016, cmaj.150835; DOI: 10.1503/cmaj.150835https://www.cmaj.ca/content/188/8/567We identified 6 clinical studies... In the meta-analysis of the clinical studies, we found no significant difference between N95 respirators and surgical masks in associated risk of (a) laboratory-confirmed respiratory infection,(b) influenza-like illness,or (c) reported work-place absenteeism.”

Offeddu, V. et al. (2017)Effectiveness of Masks and Respirators Against Respiratory Infections in Healthcare Workers: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis, Clinical Infectious Diseases, Volume 65, Issue 11, 1 December 2017, Pages 19341942, https://doi.org/10.1093/cid/cix681https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/65/11/1934/4068747“Self-reported assessment of clinical outcomes was prone to bias.Evidence of a protective effect of masks or respirators against verified respiratory infection (VRI)was not statistically significant”; as per Fig. 2c therein
Could not copy table from document


Radonovich, L.J. et al. (2019)N95 Respirators vs Medical Masks for Preventing Influenza Among Health Care Personnel: A Randomized Clinical Trial”,JAMA. 2019;322(9):824833. doi:10.1001/jama.2019.11645https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2749214Among 2862 randomized participants, 2371 completed the study and accounted for 5180 HCW-seasons.... Among outpatient health care personnel, N95 respirators vs medical masks as worn by participants in this trial resulted in no significant difference in the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

Long, Y. et al. (2020)Effectiveness of N95 respirators versus surgical masks against influenza: A systematic review and meta‐analysis”,J Evid Based Med.2020; 1‐ 9. https://doi.org/10.1111/jebm.12381https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jebm.12381A total of six RCTs involving 9 171 participants were included. There were no statistically significant differences in preventing laboratory‐confirmed influenza, laboratory‐confirmed respiratory viral infections, laboratory‐confirmed respiratory infection and influenza-like illness using N95 respirators and surgical masks. Meta‐analysis indicated a protective effect of N95respirators against laboratory‐confirmed bacterial colonization(RR = 0.58, 95% CI 0.43‐0.78). The
use of N95 respirators compared with surgical masks is not associated with a
lower risk of laboratory‐confirmed influenza.

Conclusion Regarding that Masks Do Not Work

No RCT study with verified outcome shows a benefit for HCW or community members in householdsto wearing a mask or respirator. There is no such study. There are no exceptions.Likewise, no study exists that shows a benefit from a broad policy to wear masks in public (more on this below). Furthermore, if there were any benefit to wearing a mask, because of theblocking power against droplets and aerosol particles, then there should be more benefit from wearing a respirator(N95)compared to a surgical mask, yet several large meta-analyses, and all the RCT, prove that there is no such relative benefit.Masks and respirators do not work.


[/CENTER]
To read the rest of this study this will take you to a download link for the study.
 

expos4ever

Well-known member
Here is a study done by a researcher who looks at a variety of studies done on masks. The conclusion? That masks do not work for stopping respiratory infections.


To read the rest of this study this will take you to a download link for the study.
Were you expecting that no one would double-check the source?

According to David Kyle Johnson, Ph.D. (I added emphasis):

Of the eight studies Rancourt cites, none of them provides any evidence to support his claim that masks do not work in reducing the spread of viruses, and several of them provide evidence that they do. And all that happens just in the first section of his article.

I invite readers to do their own investigation of Professor Rancourt - lots of red flags.
 

Gary K

New member
Banned
Were you expecting that no one would double-check the source?

According to David Kyle Johnson, Ph.D. (I added emphasis):

Of the eight studies Rancourt cites, none of them provides any evidence to support his claim that masks do not work in reducing the spread of viruses, and several of them provide evidence that they do. And all that happens just in the first section of his article.

I invite readers to do their own investigation of Professor Rancourt - lots of red flags.

Oh, yeah, I expected it. But I have also researched the issue. The charges against him all grew out of politics. He's not politically correct so he has lots of left wing enemies and as academia is run by leftists they hate him and worked to destroy him. I invite anyone to study his history and and look at the basis of the charges against him. He's an independent thinker and leftists hate independent thinkers. Also look at the orgs that have supported him.

You should also note that the leading epidemiologists in Sweden and Denmark flat out agree with him. They say there is no evidence that masks are effective. And their nations have not suffered excess deaths because they have not created mandatory mask policies. They have fewer deaths than a bunch of countries that created very serious lockdown policies. Belgium used drones to find people not following lockdown policies. And their result? They have more deaths and cases than Sweden and Denmark. Real world results speak volumes. Masks haven't proven effective at all.
 
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