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What is "Crucified with Christ"? AKA the infamous Meat and Milk seals debate

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  • #61
    Originally posted by graceandpeace View Post
    Some confuse the doctrine of being "crucified with Christ" with being born again/initial salvation.

    I believe it is what occurs once you have made your calling and election SURE. In other words, once you have had your faith tested, and, you can no longer be tossed to or fro with every wind of doctrine.

    I would like to discuss this...issue.

    Anyone up for it?

    My main focus is on that all who are saved are born again, but not all who are born again, have learned the WILL of God, or purpose of God, for their salvation.

    In order to never fall, you must be crucified with Christ.

    That means, you must learn and grow in grace and in knowledge, until you KNOW and can discern good and evil.

    It is at this point that you have died to the law.

    You cannot immediately die to the law, upon initial salvation, because it takes having the holy spirit in order to get it done.

    We are saved/justified, without the law,(born again), and, then we must die to the law/be crucified with Jesus.

    Is anyone on this board with me?
    You seem to be saying that to be crucified with Christ is the equivalent to what most Christians refer to as sanctification.

    That believers are immediately saved upon confession of their faith in Christ and then begin a process of sanctification that results in their being crucified in Christ.

    If that is what you're saying, and forgive me for having not read through the thread before posting this response to the opening post (i.e. I hope I not rehashing old ground here) then I'd say that from a certain perspective I'd agree but it really seems that you've confused the effect with the cause.
    You see, our having been crucified in Christ is not something to which we, as believers, aspire to, it is an established, finished, unalterable, biblical fact. A biblical fact that we must take on faith and rest in. The more we do so, that is, the more we are convinced of and accept the truth of our death in Christ, the more our walk is directed by Christ's life in us. In other words, the process of what Christians typically call sanctification is fueled by our faith in the Biblical facts which are ALREADY true of us IN CHRIST, of which our crucifixion is only one.

    Someone more eloquent than I put it this way...
    "The more clearly we enter by faith into objective truth, or what is true of us in Christ, the deeper, more experiential, and practical, will be the subjective work in us, and the more complete will be the manifestation of the moral effect in our life and character."

    I got that quote from a book that I consider to be a must read. Regular hard copies can be found easily but there is a free online version here...

    The Green Letters by Miles J. Stanford

    What a great book!

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    sigpic
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Clete View Post
      You seem to be saying that to be crucified with Christ is the equivalent to what most Christians refer to as sanctification.

      That believers are immediately saved upon confession of their faith in Christ and then begin a process of sanctification that results in their being crucified in Christ.

      If that is what you're saying, and forgive me for having not read through the thread before posting this response to the opening post (i.e. I hope I not rehashing old ground here) then I'd say that from a certain perspective I'd agree but it seem that you've confused the effect with the cause. You see, our having been crucified in Christ is not something to which we, as believers, aspire to, it is an established, finished, unalterable, biblical fact. A biblical fact that we must take on faith and rest in. The more we do so, that is, the more we are convinced of and accept the truth of our death in Christ, the more our walk is directed by Christ's life in us. In other words, the process of what Christians typically call sanctification is fueled by our faith in the Biblical facts which are ALREADY true of us IN CHRIST, of which our crucifixion is only one.

      Someone more eloquent than I put it this way...
      "The more clearly we enter by faith into objective truth, or what is true of us in Christ, the deeper, more experiential, and practical, will be the subjective work in us, and the more complete will be the manifestation of the moral effect in our life and character."

      I got that quote from a book that I consider to be a must read. Regular hard copies can be found easily but there is a free online version here...

      The Green Letters by Miles J. Stanford

      What a great book!

      Resting in Him,
      Clete
      Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
      Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

      Comment


      • #63
        I'm not too big on doing what I'm about to do, but...


        That OP I just read is the biggest pile of crap I believe I've ever seen here on TOL. Unbelievable...
        Funny how threads morph.


        For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." ~ Paul


        "You should never wave to someone you don't know. What if he doesn't have a hand? Then he'll just think you're being cocky!" ~Mitch Hedberg

        __.._

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by chickenman View Post
          I'm not too big on doing what I'm about to do, but...


          That OP I just read is the biggest pile of crap I believe I've ever seen here on TOL. Unbelievable...
          I promise, I did not hack into chickeman's account.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by chickenman View Post
            I'm not too big on doing what I'm about to do, but...
            What? Calling a spade a spade?


            That OP I just read is the biggest pile of crap I believe I've ever seen here on TOL. Unbelievable...
            I think your spade radar is working just fine!

            We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
            They already know monsters exist.
            We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by chickenman View Post
              I'm not too big on doing what I'm about to do, but...


              That OP I just read is the biggest pile of crap I believe I've ever seen here on TOL. Unbelievable...
              Let me try to explain salvation for you.

              1. The final result of our having faith is to be inthe resurrection as Jesus is now.

              2.The short term result of our having faith in Christ is dependant on just how far one is willing to sacrifice all in order to follow Christ.

              If we give all, then God will by His Word, the more change us to be more like Christ was in this life, when he was here.

              The variables are many.

              One variable is the person that we were before we came to faith in Christ, for it depends on our responsiveness to Christ based on our past, (for we are the same person, except for faith and the Spirit) and our past has to do with so many other people according to Gods laws of the first creation.

              It can take some years to shake off what we were, because it is imprinted on our mind and spirit, some of which is changed by the Lord and other things not, until we overcome them, by His teaching us how to.


              The error is in thinking that one is changed in all things at conversion, when the change in become a new creature (creation) is not complete until the resurrection.

              In the mean time our faith is evidenced by how much our fleshy past way of life is changed by a spiritual circumcision, and that is why fruit and works of faith are so important to God.

              Those who are in the faith can identify with the experiences of Abraham, and those who are not in the faith relate them in the way of the flesh ( Arabs are Ishmael etc.)

              LA
              My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
                The short term result of our having faith in Christ is dependant on just how far one is willing to sacrifice all in order to follow Christ.
                LA, can you tell us what percentage of "following Christ" HAS TO take place?
                If it is really dependent on your behavioral change, then just how much of change is sufficient?

                Is a 1% change sufficient?
                Or does it need to be at least 50%?
                99.9%?

                What percentage do you think you are at?

                We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                They already know monsters exist.
                We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
                  The error is in thinking that one is changed in all things at conversion, when the change in become a new creature (creation) is not complete until the resurrection.
                  The error is thinking becoming a new creature is a gradual process.

                  One who is in Christ is a new creature --- (pristine, unblemished, clean, unspoiled, without defect).

                  You are new the moment you are in Christ onward.

                  You do not gradually become new when you are in Christ.


                  As long as you are in Christ, God sees no stain, blemish, unclean, spoil, or defect of sin on you whatsoever.

                  We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                  They already know monsters exist.
                  We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                    The error is thinking becoming a new creature is a gradual process.

                    One who is in Christ is a new creature --- (pristine, unblemished, clean, unspoiled, without defect).

                    You are new the moment you are in Christ onward.

                    You do not gradually become new when you are in Christ.


                    As long as you are in Christ, God sees no stain, blemish, unclean, spoil, or defect of sin on you whatsoever.
                    ^ This 2 Corinthians 5:17
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                      LA, can you tell us what percentage of "following Christ" HAS TO take place?
                      If it is really dependent on your behavioral change, then just how much of change is sufficient?

                      Is a 1% change sufficient?
                      Or does it need to be at least 50%?
                      99.9%?

                      What percentage do you think you are at?

                      As a new born babe, the change is dramatic but over a short time the believer finds that he/she was kept in the arms of another and was fed by another but soon learns to use their own faith or starves and can do nothing, which at the first tended to boast of their new found life as if they have done it themselves, and the older ones seemed somewhat to be struggling compared to them.

                      Men send young believers out into the world to preach the gospel but they are already doing so, as it is by their change of life among all those who know them.

                      God grows His children slowly but by the encouragement of others they often try to kill a lion with a stick and come undone and discouraged until they learn their masters voice and deny the voices of men.

                      No child is like their Father when they are young except in the spirit of, and can do no work, except to play and enjoy themselves with others like them in their household, and it is this invironment that the devil trys to break up as soon as possible for he can only do so by getting at the older believers who have some chink in their armor which remains unsubmitted outside of his Lord's will.

                      Thus sanctification by the living word of God AFTER ones conversion is essential to success and even survival--

                      Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

                      Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
                      Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
                      Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
                      Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
                      Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.


                      LA
                      My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        All things have become new, old things HAVE passed away.

                        Pretty simple to understand to me.
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                          The error is thinking becoming a new creature is a gradual process.

                          One who is in Christ is a new creature --- (pristine, unblemished, clean, unspoiled, without defect).

                          You are new the moment you are in Christ onward.

                          You do not gradually become new when you are in Christ.

                          No one has said a believer becomes a new creation gradually, but that after becoming a new creature they grow in wisdom and grace.


                          As long as you are in Christ, God sees no stain, blemish, unclean, spoil, or defect of sin on you whatsoever.
                          I assure you that God chastises every son He receives, and for good reason.

                          When do you find in the natural that children do not play in the mud or disobey their parents to get a sense of them and of what it is to disobey?

                          God sees all, and is not stupid to pretend with his children, when they dirty themselves and also refuse correction of their Mother then their Father is concerned, especially when they do know better--

                          Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
                          Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
                          Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
                          Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
                          Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
                          Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
                          Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
                          Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
                          Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
                          Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
                          Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

                          LA
                          My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
                            No one has said a believer becomes a new creation gradually, but that after becoming a new creature they grow in wisdom and grace.




                            I assure you that God chastises every son He receives, and for good reason.

                            When do you find in the natural that children do not play in the mud or disobey their parents to get a sense of them and of what it is to disobey?

                            God sees all, and is not stupid to pretend with his children, when they dirty themselves and also refuse correction of their Mother then their Father is concerned, especially when they do know better--

                            Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
                            Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
                            Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
                            Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
                            Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
                            Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
                            Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
                            Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
                            Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
                            Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
                            Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

                            LA

                            Hebrews was written to the jews who were trying to mix law and grace, who were trying to claim both grace through the sacrifice of Christ, but were refusing to let go of following the law.

                            Written to them to Trust in Christ and not animal sacrifice - and not to burden others to keep trying to follow the law, instead of trusting Christ.
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Son of Jack View Post
                              G&P,

                              It is clear that you teach a works-based version of salvation. It seems to me that you are suggesting that when Jesus said, "It is finished," He meant that "It was just beginning," with a phrase like initial salvation. To borrow from a dear friend, Jesus bought me. He didn't rent me.
                              Then you do not understand what I am saying. Is He not the Author and Finisher of your faith?

                              It is that simple.

                              We, however must allow Him to get it done..He is not a robot maker, and He allows for us to freely quench Him out....to the point of returning to unbelief. It is called heresy/apostacy, etc...at this point, HE HIMself hands us over to satan...so that correction will come. Only through reaping what you sowed, in the flesh, can you learn...IF and when, you have blasphemed HIS gospel. If you have blasphemed His gospel, remaining in a blasphemed, or untrue message cannot teach you your error...He must allow you to reap what you sowed, and He does.

                              Sorry if you do not agree...I know the true God.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Clete View Post
                                You seem to be saying that to be crucified with Christ is the equivalent to what most Christians refer to as sanctification.

                                That believers are immediately saved upon confession of their faith in Christ and then begin a process of sanctification that results in their being crucified in Christ.

                                If that is what you're saying, and forgive me for having not read through the thread before posting this response to the opening post (i.e. I hope I not rehashing old ground here) then I'd say that from a certain perspective I'd agree but it really seems that you've confused the effect with the cause.
                                You see, our having been crucified in Christ is not something to which we, as believers, aspire to, it is an established, finished, unalterable, biblical fact. A biblical fact that we must take on faith and rest in. The more we do so, that is, the more we are convinced of and accept the truth of our death in Christ, the more our walk is directed by Christ's life in us. In other words, the process of what Christians typically call sanctification is fueled by our faith in the Biblical facts which are ALREADY true of us IN CHRIST, of which our crucifixion is only one.

                                Someone more eloquent than I put it this way...
                                "The more clearly we enter by faith into objective truth, or what is true of us in Christ, the deeper, more experiential, and practical, will be the subjective work in us, and the more complete will be the manifestation of the moral effect in our life and character."

                                I got that quote from a book that I consider to be a must read. Regular hard copies can be found easily but there is a free online version here...

                                The Green Letters by Miles J. Stanford

                                What a great book!

                                Resting in Him,
                                Clete
                                I am not saying it is not already accomplished; I am saying we do not yet understand it upon initial salvation, and that is why we are to grow in grace and in truth.

                                We can quench out the Holy Spirit and stop growing, (into more truth), and we can even return unto our own vomit/ or look back, even unto unbelief..God is not a robot makers, and He allows us the choices.

                                It is HIS desire that we continue on into the mature man/where we KNOW of what it is to be 'crucified with Christ'...but, yes, it is already a 'done deal', we just have to learn of it.

                                Comment

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