ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Are you as Christ is today? If not then it will not make sense to you. I declare by faith that as Christ is so am I in this world. Are you willing to make such a declaration? If you are not as Christ is you are not in Him because you cannot be in Christ and not be as He is.

Help me get my mind around what you hold to be true about the nature of Christ. Do you believe that Christ is the second person of the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance and equal with the Father?

Please try to not equivocate. Just looking for a simple yes or no answer.

 

[Philetus]

Originally Posted by elected4ever

What we gained in our salvation was not to sin as a choice but the liberty to follow God and love Him. That is what we could not do before. We can do that because we are a new creation and not subject to the flesh and sin ever again. How can we be free and still be subject to sin? That does not make sense.

Originally Posted by elected4ever

Are you telling me that those who are now born of God now besmirch our own Father? Are you telling me that now we are still subject to the same acts of death that existed before we received life when the scripture clearly says we are not sinners and cannot sin? How can we as children of Light live in darkness? That is not possible. If we remain capable or sin then Christ is not in us and we are not as Christ is. This is not perfection of the flesh but the life of the spirit. If you live by the flesh you shall die but if you put to death the flesh you shall live. The only way to put the flesh to death is to receive life in the spirit. If you do not have the spirit you are still dead in trespasses and sins because you do not belong to God in such a case. No christian, those born of God, can sin because that are incapable of doing so. To say that one does is to say God is a sinner. When you say that you sin and are still a sinner is to deny the gospel of Christ and Christ affords you nothing.

There is nothing in the above that even remotely reflects the content of my post which was an attempt to get past the past and on with the future.

You have one horse E4E ... and it's dead.

Free-Willy
Philetus

 

[elected4ever]

Well one thing's for certain, you are a liar.

Clear this up once and for all elected4ever by giving a straight and unequivocal answer to the following questions...

Has God the Son always existed?

Is Jesus and God the Son the same person?

Anything other than one word answers to both of those question will prove to me that you are not a Christian and remain in your sins (by whatever definition of 'sin' you want to use).

Resting in Him,
Clete

Not in the person of Jesus. Jesus was born of a virgin 2000 years ago. The word became the person of Jesus and is the eternal existence.. The word indwelt the body of Jesus. The physical body of Jesus was born of the seed of The Father the one who by His nature is God and He could not sin because He is born of God as the scripture says, A body thou hast prepared for me" and in another place, " I have come to do thy will oh God". Jesus did do His own will because His will was to do the Father's will.

 

[Philetus]

Help me get my mind around what you hold to be true about the nature of Christ. Do you believe that Christ is the second person of the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance and equal with the Father?

Please try to not equivocate. Just looking for a simple yes or no answer.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
These two should meet.

 

[elected4ever]

There is nothing in the above that even remotely reflects the content of my post which was an attempt to get past the past and on with the future.

You have one horse E4E ... and it's dead.

Free-Willy
Philetus

Are you saying the promises of god are dead? That is the only horse i have.:shocked:

 

[Stripe]

Are you as Christ is today? If not then it will not make sense to you. I declare by faith that as Christ is so am I in this world. Are you willing to make such a declaration? If you are not as Christ is you are not in Him because you cannot be in Christ and not be as He is.

I'm not as Christ. I've sinned. He hasn't.

 

[Philetus]

Are you saying the promises of god are dead? That is the only horse i have.:shocked:

Well then, you've said it. Willy's future is as bright as the promises of God. Now Free-Willy to live in those promises!



Please, Oh please, answer AMR's question about Jesus.


Philetus

 

[elected4ever]

Well then, you've said it. Willy's future is as bright as the promises of God. Now Free-Willy to live in those promises!



Please, Oh please, answer AMR's question about Jesus.


Philetus

Must have misted it. What did he ask? I didn't think he address me.

 

[elected4ever]

I'm not as Christ. I've sinned. He hasn't.

Don't you believe that jesus is faithful and just to do as he promised?1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Didn't Jesus cleanse you from all unrighteousness when you confessed your sin to Him? Don't you believe Him? It is not what you were but who He has made you to be.

 

[elected4ever]

Help me get my mind around what you hold to be true about the nature of Christ. Do you believe that Christ is the second person of the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance and equal with the Father?

Please try to not equivocate. Just looking for a simple yes or no answer.

As you describe it here, no. What you describe here is unreasonable given all the scripture otherwise.

 

[Stripe]

Don't you believe that jesus is faithful and just to do as he promised?1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Didn't Jesus cleanse you from all unrighteousness when you confessed your sin to Him? Don't you believe Him? It is not what you were but who He has made you to be.

Yes. All that has happened. I still sinned and Jesus did not though. So I'm not the same as him.

 

[elected4ever]

Yes. All that has happened. I still sinned and Jesus did not though. So I'm not the same as him.

Why do you wont to believe a lie about yourself? If you have now been made righteous as Jesus has promised it is utterly imposable for you to sin. You are not of the flesh but of the spirit if so be the spirit of God dwells in you.

 

[themuzicman]

Another clash of terms. Clete thinks "sin" means to do something morally wrong, and E4E thinks that "sin" means to do something worthy of God's eternal wrath.

Muz

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

As you describe it here, no. What you describe here is unreasonable given all the scripture otherwise.

OK, thanks.

 

[Stripe]

Why do you wont to believe a lie about yourself? If you have now been made righteous as Jesus has promised it is utterly imposable for you to sin. You are not of the flesh but of the spirit if so be the spirit of God dwells in you.

I've been made righteous, but I still sinned. Jesus did not. I'm not the same as him.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

e4e... this is not the thread to argue your "Christians cannot sin" argument, please take it elsewhere.

 

[elected4ever]

e4e... this is not the thread to argue your "Christians cannot sin" argument, please take it elsewhere.

I am arguing that you cannot choose outside of who you are. The argument totally debunks the argument of total free will as presented on this tread. You cannot separate your faith from your argument as some attempt to do. Your faith is your truth. The "Christians cannot sin" argument is just a by product, not the main issue. I am ask about it and I respond. Oh i know you just wont me to shut up so you guys can justify your sin choice but that ain't going to happen.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I am arguing that you cannot choose outside of who you are. The argument totally debunks the argument of total free will as presented on this tread. You cannot separate your faith from your argument as some attempt to do. Your faith is your truth. The "Christians cannot sin" argument is just a by product, not the main issue. I am ask about it and I respond. Oh i know you just wont me to shut up so you guys can justify your sin choice but that ain't going to happen.

Ok.

 

[Clete]

Another clash of terms. Clete thinks "sin" means to do something morally wrong, and E4E thinks that "sin" means to do something worthy of God's eternal wrath.

Muz

Actually, if I understand e4e's position correctly, he defines sin as a violation of the law (i.e. the Mosaic Law). He reasons that since we are no longer under law that we can no longer sin. And given this vary narrow definition of the word, he's right. The problem is that no one else but him and Sozo understand the word sin to strictly mean a violation of the Mosaic Law. There is a whole range of meaning to the word that e4e simply insists must be ignored and thus he creates confusion needlessly.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Lighthouse]

Actually, if I understand e4e's position correctly, he defines sin as a violation of the law (i.e. the Mosaic Law). He reasons that since we are no longer under law that we can no longer sin. And given this vary narrow definition of the word, he's right. The problem is that no one else but him and Sozo understand the word sin to strictly mean a violation of the Mosaic Law. There is a whole range of meaning to the word that e4e simply insists must be ignored and thus he creates confusion needlessly.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Actually, Sozo doesn't even believe that. I heard it from his own mouth as he sat in front of me. e4e is the only one who seems to perceive it this way.