Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
    Thanks GR. good link. Not Sanders at his best, but good. Can you find the whole debate?

    I wish Sanders had dealt with the Gen 50 question more. Here is my take:
    Gen. 50:19 But Joseph said to them, "Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.


    Here in Genesis 50 the intentions of human beings and the intentions of God are pitted against each other. Clearly the intentions of Joseph’s brothers were to harm him and make their own lives easier. They in fact had placed themselves on a par with God in disposing of their little brother and profiting by selling him into slavery and supposing to obliterate Joseph’s future as a free Israelite. Even Ruben’s self preserving intervention to spare Joseph’s life was an act of control and manipulation, not of deliverance.

    God’s intentions are always good. His plans are to bless not to harm; plans to give us a future. Jer 29:11 But because the intentions of others are often contrary to God’s own intentions (destructive and sinful) God works with, through or even around the intentional actions of His creatures. I think this is evident over and over again in Joseph’s story, Potiphar’s wife, prison and release, the rise to power and so forth. By the time we get to Gen 50 the clash between God’s intention and those of opposing forces is clear and what Joseph recognizes is that no mater what harm has come to him from the evil intentions of others, he will not put himself in the place of God or play god with the lives of others. He will not repay evil for evil. If God is for Joseph, who can be against him? The list of those who were against Joseph is long, but God’s intentions win out in His servants lives, not because God is in meticulous control or even because the selling of Joseph into slavery was God’s original intention, but because NOTHING can prevent God from accomplishing His purposes. Who knows how God might have saved many lives had Joseph not been sold out by his brothers? Maybe Israel and all his sons could have gone to Egypt as one big happy family. Who knows how it might have happened? All we know is how it DID happen and what is now being done.

    God can take the long way to accomplish His intentions when those intentions are challenged by the sinful actions of men. He will do in 40 years what should take no more than 4 weeks ... but that requires our cooperation and obedience. Sometimes God works with, sometimes through, sometimes around and sometimes in spite of our intentions and actions. The list of those whose intentions appose God’s is as long as human history. All have sinned. But, God is patient, faithful and will accomplish what He intends.

    Jer 29:11 - For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

    "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

    Comment


    • Very good exposition. It goes to show how we bring our theological framework to the text. There is no need to proof text this passage to support hyper-sovereignty/meticulous control. It is fully consistent with providential, creative, responsive control (balances God's interventions and our freedom).

      Sanders has written better on this passage than he was speaking. I do not know if the whole debate is available online, but I imagine he made a better case overall. The anti-OT site conveniently only gave a snippet. Boyd and others have also addressed this passage well.

      Given your well-thought out response, I think your name should be on the cover of our book (but I still want 60-40 of the profits...I think I have more kids than you? I have 3 teens and a sick wife and 3 pets).
      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
        Very good exposition. It goes to show how we bring our theological framework to the text. There is no need to proof text this passage to support hyper-sovereignty/meticulous control. It is fully consistent with providential, creative, responsive control (balances God's interventions and our freedom).

        Sanders has written better on this passage than he was speaking. I do not know if the whole debate is available online, but I imagine he made a better case overall. The anti-OT site conveniently only gave a snippet. Boyd and others have also addressed this passage well.

        Given your well-thought out response, I think your name should be on the cover of our book (but I still want 60-40 of the profits...I think I have more kids than you? I have 3 teens and a sick wife and 3 pets).
        OK, but let’s make it 70/30. I make a habit of selling out for the poor; not selling out the poor.

        Will work
        for books!

        "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mystery View Post
          I certainly understood the point godrulz was making. He has been saying it over and over again ad nausium. He really believes that there can be opposing views about those things that he does not perceive as essential, but the evidence of what someone believes (not what they do) is what determines who is in Christ and who is not.
          So, you claim inerrancy for your theology?

          Muz
          I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

          2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
            So, you claim inerrancy for your theology?

            Muz
            I know and believe the gospel.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mystery View Post
              I know and believe the gospel.
              That doesn't answer the question. Do you believe you theology is inerrant?

              (Is that not simple enough to answer?)

              Muz
              I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

              2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

              Comment


              • The message of the Gospel is inerrant!
                Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

                The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mystery View Post
                  Actually, I was. I was discussing the issue of "Free will" and why God does not have it, and neither do we, as it was being defined by both Open Theists and Calvinists.
                  Mystery
                  I thought I understood that you do not believe the future is entirely settled? Was I wrong. If I was not wrong, why do you believe the future is not entirely settled, since you do not believe in free will?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                    That doesn't answer the question. Do you believe you theology is inerrant?

                    (Is that not simple enough to answer?)

                    Muz
                    No, because theology covers a variety of subjects. I know very little about eschatology. Yet I know and believe the gospel.

                    So, my answer is in respect to what?

                    Comment


                    • Three questions:

                      1. Is God free to be unrighteous?

                      2. Is the unrighteous free to do righteously?

                      3. Are the righteous free to do unrighteously?
                      Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

                      The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mystery View Post
                        No, because theology covers a variety of subjects. I know very little about eschatology. Yet I know and believe the gospel.

                        So, my answer is in respect to what?
                        Yet, you said:

                        Originally posted by Mystery
                        He [Godrulz] really believes that there can be opposing views about those things that he does not perceive as essential, but the evidence of what someone believes (not what they do) is what determines who is in Christ and who is not.
                        So, are you saying that you're NOT in Christ?

                        Muz
                        I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

                        2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Delmar View Post
                          Mystery
                          I thought I understood that you do not believe the future is entirely settled? Was I wrong. If I was not wrong, why do you believe the future is not entirely settled, since you do not believe in free will?
                          That is correct. The future is open.

                          I do not believe that anyone who is in Adam can have eternal life apart from God's plan of salvation (By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone) either now or in the future.

                          The will is never entirely free. I do not believe that anyone who has eternal life in Christ can perish, either now or at anytime in the future. I do not believe that God can lie, either now or anytime in the future.

                          I believe that when we come into this world we are dead to God, and in need of life. The only way for anyone in the future of their life to be saved is by the power of the gospel to everyone who believes it. That is the ONLY choice that a person has regarding salvation. There is no other way to be saved, and so man is not free to be saved any other way.

                          Once someone has believed the gospel and are now a new creation in Christ, they are no longer free to be otherwise. They have surrendered their will to God. That is, their will concerning who they are. We are no longer free to be anything other than what we are... a child of God.

                          So can you decide if you are going to have lunch at Taco Bell or Wendy's, of course you can, the future is wide open. But, it is closed concerning our identity, just as God's identity is closed, and both of us are free in the future to do those things that are available to us within the parameters of our identities.

                          Comment


                          • One question:

                            1. Is the future in anyway open?

                            "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                              Yet, you said:



                              So, are you saying that you're NOT in Christ?

                              Muz
                              Look, porky, just say what you have to say. I'm not going to play "this little piggie" with you, so just get on with it.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mystery View Post
                                That is correct. The future is open.

                                I do not believe that anyone who is in Adam can have eternal life apart from God's plan of salvation (By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone) either now or in the future.

                                The will is never entirely free. I do not believe that anyone who has eternal life in Christ can perish, either now or at anytime in the future. I do not believe that God can lie, either now or anytime in the future.

                                I believe that when we come into this world we are dead to God, and in need of life. The only way for anyone in the future of their life to be saved is by the power of the gospel to everyone who believes it. That is the ONLY choice that a person has regarding salvation. There is no other way to be saved, and so man is not free to be saved any other way.

                                Once someone has believed the gospel and are now a new creation in Christ, they are no longer free to be otherwise. They have surrendered their will to God. That is, their will concerning who they are. We are no longer free to be anything other than what we are... a child of God.

                                So can you decide if you are going to have lunch at Taco Bell or Wendy's, of course you can, the future is wide open. But, it is closed concerning our identity, just as God's identity is closed, and both of us are free in the future to do those things that are available to us within the parameters of our identities.
                                Hey Mystery, you know somebody is going to ask:

                                What about an infant born in Adam who dies at six weeks old? Righteous or unrighteous?

                                "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X