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  • Originally posted by Clete View Post
    Mystery,
    "Also, on that point, you said earlier that God was righteous before He had ever acted, or something along those lines. I was wondering when you thought that was? Has not God always been in perpetual relationship with the members of the Trinity? Has not God the Father always loved the Son and Spirit and acted in a way consistent with the nurturing of those relationships? When was the time before God acted righteously? There was no such time!"

    Put simply, my firm belief is that neither came first. There is no "first" for a being which has always existed and so if that point is kept clearly in view, there should be no difficulty in merging you view on this issue with mine. They are not in contradiction to one another since God has never been outside a reciprocal love relationship. It is both true that God's righteous actions flow from His nature and that He is righteous because He acts in the best interests of others.

    I have to admit that while I can see how what I just said might very well be true, I am feeling/fighting the urge to reject it. I'm very much an "either/or" sort of person and this "both/and" stuff drives me a little crazy.
    I can see how it would be difficult to say that God is love unless at some point He has loved. And the debate is centered around whether or not that action stems from a choice, an act of His will, or if His will and His choices are the result of His nature. I think I have said this before, but those actions that come from God, such as Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control, are the fruit of the Spirit. They result from the nature of God, who is Spirit. You and I do not simply choose to love because God chose to perform an action of love towards us, and now we imitate it, but rather because He has given us His Spirit, without which, love is impossible. The only possibility that we have of loving others as an act of the will stems from our new nature. This tells me that it is the nature which preceeds the action, and therefore God loves because He is love. The one who does righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. You must first be righteous for the righteousness to come.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Philetus View Post
      I think we have established our differences on how we understand the bible's teaching about election. You misread me: according to your view individuals are elected not loved; God loves nobody in particular. In corporate election God loves everybody in particular (each and every one regardless of their state) and adds those who respond in faith to his gift of life to the corporate elect.
      This is not true. I believe that you have a very skewed idea of what election is and your response is driven by hate and your judgment is warped. I know of no one, not even a Calvinist that believe what you have just accused them off. I am beginning to think that you are driven more by hate of a perceived dogma than by the love of the truth.

      Election, whether individual or corporate is the expression of love, not hate. You cannot be of the corporate elect if you are not first elected individually. No one individual can be elected without being made part of the corporate elect and you cannot be of the elect without God expressing His love to you individually. If you are not of the elect , you are not of God.

      Originally posted by Philetus View Post
      What you have said above is that God really doesn't love anybody but Himself (the Son). In fact you have said that God loves the world (created things) but not people. Is that the same God who commands us to love one another, not the things of the world?
      Where is such a statement as this made? You mean to tell me that God does not love Himself? You mean to tell me that if God loves Himself that He is not capable of loving His creation? What God has done has originated from His self love. No one , not even God, can love others without first loving themselves.

      Originally posted by Philetus View Post
      Our righteousness amounting to nothing more than filthy rags is not the same as saying the person in them is without value. Being totally unworthy is not the same as being totally worthless.
      I am going to withhold comment until you clarify what you mean by this statement. It doesn't make sense as it stands.


      Originally posted by Philetus View Post
      Your exaggeration of human depravity is really no more than the thinly veiled declaration of someone who supposes himself to be chosen by God over another and who is really only thankful that he isn’t like that poor lost sinner standing in the corner beating himself up over his unworthiness. Such is only false humility. It isn’t necessary to think less of one’s self than one ought in order to not think more highly of one’s self than he ought.
      I don't think that characterizing a person being dead to God is an exaggeration. How would you characterize a rotten decaying corpse? You mean to tell me that you are not thankful that God elected you and not another that had the same opportunity. Then maybe you are the other guy that wasn't elected because you had rather have to have your way rather than God's way? Are you just mad because your sacrifice of work is what God said is unacceptable, like Cain and you want to kill Able?

      Originally posted by Philetus View Post
      We have the same proof texts. It's in how they are read. Individually or all together.
      Yes, and I have already proven that you don't believe them.

      Originally posted by Philetus View Post
      No wonder the world (and the people in it) aren't buying your version of 'truth'. The same people who are on the one hand saying that human beings are worthless to God are on the other hand building a case against abortion based on the sanctity of life so they can execute abortionists. Go figure. While fundamental Calvinists scratch their heads and wonder how fundamental extremist Muslim suicide-bombers can blow people up physically they continue to blow them off spiritually. I’m not sure which is more destructive.
      You are by far the most destructive because you hold the truth in unrighteousness expecting your dead works to suffice and make you acceptable to God.
      Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

      The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Spitfire View Post
        Do you think there was any particular significance to Christ's suffering and temptation in the garden of Gethsemane?

        Remind me of what Catholics think this was. I think Mormons see it as part of the atonement by sweating blood. This is not valid. The garden was part of the experience leading up to the cross, but it is only at the cross that sacrifice and redemption takes place.

        The Agony:

        http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01224a.htm
        Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

        They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
        I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

        Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

        "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

        The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
          No, not bitter. You get under my skin occasionally, but at the end of the day
          I truly feel sorry for you. I keep hoping one day you'll exchange your focus on Bible interpretationfor Bible belief.

          Not really fair, bro.
          Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

          They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
          I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

          Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

          "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

          The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

          Comment


          • AMR:

            Do you see any differences in categories of attributes and character relating to God?

            His being and character are related, but not identical.


            There are 3 absolutes in regards to God: Uncreated Triune Creator

            God is uncreated (we are created): He is infinite, being (existence), metaphysics includes omnipresent, omnipotent, eternal, omniscient, form.

            These attributes of being are unique to God. It is impossible for man to be like God in these areas.

            God is triune: He is spirit, not matter. He has unity and diversity. He is not solitary. This is also unique about God, though we also have spirit and are tripartite, but not triune in God's sense.

            God is Creator: He is personal, has character, morals, experiential ability, intellectual ability, sovereign free will, sequence/duration, freedom. These are attributes of personality, not being. These qualities are automatic in man, in some sense, as we are in His personal image (we have will, intellect, emotions). We are not sovereign, but we can chose. These things make relationship possible.

            From these attributes of being and personality flow His moral attributes: love, holiness, righteousness, lovingkindness, wisdom, truthfulness, faithfulness, etc. These attributes are possible for man, not automatic (men have wills, but not all men love, are faithful or truthful, etc. in every choice...we can be selfish liars, by choice). They are contingent as we respond to God and others or fail to live up to His absolutes and laws of love. This is another aspect of the Imago Dei.

            Confusing being and personality may be your root error, suited to Anselm, Aquinas, Plato, or whoever, but not the best biblical understanding.

            Verses can be given for each of these attributes (I will give your going rate of $5 for Bible answers).

            In summary: Uncreated= attributes of being

            Creator= attributes of personality

            Triune (relational)

            =========> Moral attributes/character (not just being, but volitional; love is a choice, not a state).
            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by elected4ever View Post
              This is not true ... blah, blah, blah ....
              Then why did you write it?

              Your comments are so far off base. This is in response to Nang and you just confuse the issue, so butt out.

              "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Philetus View Post
                Then why did you write it?

                Your comments are so far off base. This is in response to Nang and you just confuse the issue, so butt out.
                You are a lier and a pervert. the same as godrules. You can't even quote me in context. You have to pervert what I said. So go away little man, you have nothing in me.
                Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

                The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by elected4ever View Post
                  You are a lier and a pervert. the same as godrules. You can't even quote me in context. You have to pervert what I said. So go away little man, you have nothing in me.
                  LiAr? Pervert? I may be ignorant or wrong in thinking in your eyes, but that does not make me a liar. You denied the Deity of Christ in writing. Pointing this out makes me a truth-bearer, not a liar. Pervert is usually associated with sexual immorality. On what basis do you make this accusation?

                  If I have lied, corner me (misunderstandings are not malicious lies) and I will apologize publicly and make it right. In whatever sense I am a pervert, allow me to defend myself, instead of just throwing out slander/libel.
                  Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                  They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                  I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                  Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                  "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                  The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                    LiAr? Pervert? I may be ignorant or wrong in thinking in your eyes, but that does not make me a liar. You denied the Deity of Christ in writing. Pointing this out makes me a truth-bearer, not a liar. Pervert is usually associated with sexual immorality. On what basis do you make this accusation?

                    If I have lied, corner me (misunderstandings are not malicious lies) and I will apologize publicly and make it right. In whatever sense I am a pervert, allow me to defend myself, instead of just throwing out slander/libel.
                    You are a lier and a pervert. , get away from me you son of the devil.
                    Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

                    The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Philetus View Post
                      according to your view individuals are elected not loved; God loves nobody in particular.
                      Where do you get this?

                      "We love God because He first loved us." I John 4:19

                      All I am saying is that there was nothing worthy in us for God to love. God loves us only because we "are accepted in the Beloved." (Eph. 1:6)

                      The only worthiness sinners possess, is the imputed righteousness and faith of Jesus Christ. God can only look upon us, and hear our prayers and petitions because of Christ's mediatorship at the throne of grace, on our behalf. His High Priesthood is our only access to the Father.





                      In corporate election God loves everybody in particular (each and every one regardless of their state) and adds those who respond in faith to his gift of life to the corporate elect.
                      There is no such thing as "corporate" election. Election is particular. God does not position entire peoples in Christ, and have Christ die for all peoples, and then make salvation conditional upon their responses. God elected a particular people (by name), Christ died for those particular people (by name), and the Holy Spirit calls and regenerates those same particular people to new life; gifting them with the faith of Jesus Christ to believe and repent of sins. This is Godly performance of the unilateral Covenant made amongst the Godhead before the foundation of the world. These particular people were named as heirs under the will and testament of Almighty God, and Jesus Christ suffered the death required that the heirs might receive the inheritance. Only sons are heirs . . .not the world at large.

                      What you have said above is that God really doesn't love anybody but Himself (the Son). In fact you have said that God loves the world (created things) but not people.
                      God loves His entire creation; excepting wickedness and evil. God is eliminating all wickedness and evil from His creation. God loves His elect people, who have been forgiven their wickedness and evil, and the entire universe will be delivered when these sons of God are revealed in glory with the Lord:

                      "The creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Romans 8:21


                      Is that the same God who commands us to love one another, not the things of the world?
                      Yep.

                      Being totally unworthy is not the same as being totally worthless.
                      What worth do you bring to God? What virtue or righteousness can you offer Him?



                      No wonder the world (and the people in it) aren't buying your version of 'truth'. The same people who are on the one hand saying that human beings are worthless to God are on the other hand building a case against abortion based on the sanctity of life so they can execute abortionists.
                      Don't you dare attempt to put that one on me. "Thou shalt not murder" has nothing to do with admitting we are worthless sinners.



                      Go figure. While fundamental Calvinists scratch their heads and wonder how fundamental extremist Muslim suicide-bombers can blow people up physically they continue to blow them off spiritually. I’m not sure which is more destructive.
                      Now you went and got real ugly . . .I will not respond to your posts any longer, if you are going to ignorantly make such nasty comparisons. I do not deserve to receive such from you or anyone else.

                      Nang
                      "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                      " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                      Gordon H. Clark

                      "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                      Charles Spurgeon

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mystery View Post
                        I can see how it would be difficult to say that God is love unless at some point He has loved. And the debate is centered around whether or not that action stems from a choice, an act of His will, or if His will and His choices are the result of His nature. I think I have said this before, but those actions that come from God, such as Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control, are the fruit of the Spirit. They result from the nature of God, who is Spirit. You and I do not simply choose to love because God chose to perform an action of love towards us, and now we imitate it, but rather because He has given us His Spirit, without which, love is impossible. The only possibility that we have of loving others as an act of the will stems from our new nature. This tells me that it is the nature which preceeds the action, and therefore God loves because He is love. The one who does righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. You must first be righteous for the righteousness to come.
                        Mystery,

                        I think I have to ask you to define love. It seems to me that love and righteousness are basically synonymous. Love is acting in another's best interest, is it not? Is it your belief that unsaved mothers do not love their children? If so, you definitely need to give me your definition of 'love' because I just don't see it.
                        Matthew 7:9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

                        1 Kings 3:16 Now two women who were harlots came to the king, and stood before him. 17 And one woman said, “O my lord, this woman and I dwell in the same house; and I gave birth while she was in the house. 18 Then it happened, the third day after I had given birth, that this woman also gave birth. And we were together; no one was with us in the house, except the two of us in the house. 19 And this woman’s son died in the night, because she lay on him. 20 So she arose in the middle of the night and took my son from my side, while your maidservant slept, and laid him in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom. 21 And when I rose in the morning to nurse my son, there he was, dead. But when I had examined him in the morning, indeed, he was not my son whom I had borne.”
                        22 Then the other woman said, “No! But the living one is my son, and the dead one is your son.”
                        And the first woman said, “No! But the dead one is your son, and the living one is my son.”
                        Thus they spoke before the king.
                        23 And the king said, “The one says, ‘This is my son, who lives, and your son is the dead one’; and the other says, ‘No! But your son is the dead one, and my son is the living one.’|” 24 Then the king said, “Bring me a sword.” So they brought a sword before the king. 25 And the king said, “Divide the living child in two, and give half to one, and half to the other.”
                        26 Then the woman whose son was living spoke to the king, for she yearned with compassion for her son; and she said, “O my lord, give her the living child, and by no means kill him!”
                        But the other said, “Let him be neither mine nor yours, but divide him.”
                        27 So the king answered and said, “Give the first woman the living child, and by no means kill him; she is his mother.”
                        28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had rendered; and they feared the king, for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him to administer justice.

                        Resting in Him,
                        Clete
                        sigpic
                        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by elected4ever View Post
                          You are a lier and a pervert. , get away from me you son of the devil.
                          Soooo, sons of the Devil are perverts who lay around a lot? Is that what you're trying to say?



                          Somebody please ban this dork before I kill myself! I mean come on already! If you cannot spell the word 'liar' (even after having been corrected no less) do you really have anything meaningful to contribute to a theology debate forum?
                          sigpic
                          "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                          Comment


                          • I doubt being a dork is against forum policy.

                            Muz
                            I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

                            2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                              I doubt being a dork is against forum policy.

                              Muz

                              Good thing for you!

                              Oh wait, you said "dork" not pork

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mystery View Post
                                Good thing for you!
                                Why does has debate become personal to you? You look for every opportunity to insult people who engage you, and you seem fixated on me, lately.

                                Muz
                                I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

                                2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

                                Comment

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