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  • Originally posted by Nang View Post
    The prophecy had nothing to do with "boundaries," but with occupation of a certain land, which was certainly fulfilled for the Jews.

    The only way this prophecy would have gone unfulfilled, is if Israel never occupied Canaan and Palestine.
    I agree that prophecy isn't about geography. Though sometimes it pertains to real-estate.
    But, prophecy is one big 'boundary'. It separates what is contingent from what God will in fact do regardless of or in response to contingencies.

    "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Clete View Post
      AMR,

      How about crafting an argument against the Open Theist's position on atonement rather than something that you or some other Calvinist has made up out of whole cloth?

      I am not, in any way whatsoever, an Arminian, suggesting otherwise is either ignorance or a lie.

      I do not, in neither quality nor quantity, limit the value of the Christ's death on the cross.

      I do not, in any way, believe that I saved myself, nor that anyone else is capable of the same saying otherwise is a game of semantics played by those who aren't interested in engaging the Open View on its merits but rather in winning the emotional allegiance of the weak minded who like the theological status quo more than the truth.

      Basically your entire post is one enormous waste of time aside from the portions of it that delineate your own position as no one here is an Arminian and this thread is not about Arminianism but rather the Open View, which very simply is not the same thing. I can defeat the Arminian position quicker and easier than you can and do so with more logical coherence in that I'm not undermining my own position in doing so as you would be. If anything Arminianism is nothing more than a subset of and reaction too Calvinism. Open Theism has nothing to do with either of them.

      Resting in Him,
      Clete
      Thank you for your comments, Clete.
      1. Do you believe that the sinner is dead, not just dying, but completely spiritually dead in their sins?
      2. Do you believe that there is absolutely nothing the sinner can do to save themselves, that is that the sinner cannot originate the love for God in their heart since the sinner is a captive and willing slave to sin unable to deliver themselves from its corruption?
      3. Do you believe that the lost are able to only sin more or sin less, that is the sinner is wholly inclined to evil and therefore lacks any abilities of spritual discernment?
      4. Do you believe that given the sinner's innate sinful state of mind, as a condition of his sinful nature, it is beyond the power of the the sinner's will to change it?
      The answers are only a simple 'yes' or 'no' requiring no straining of the scriptures to elaborate an answer.
      Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



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      • Originally posted by Knight View Post
        Well then, you just lost the argument.
        I did?



        Were you aware that God Himself tells us that He DIDN'T drive them out?
        Didn't drive who out? ". . the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites?"

        According to the later Joshua passages, some Jebusites remained in Jerusalem and some Canaanites remained in Ephraim. Not as ruling tribes, but residuals, and that only because the Israelites spared them contrary to the commands of God, and thus became a thorn in the flesh to Israel, as judgment from God.

        But what happened to all the others? And did not Israel occupy and rule via their own tribal system, over this residual population, in the promised land?

        And do you not believe there might be further, and future, and spiritual applications of the prophecy of Joshua 3:10 that are yet to be fulfilled?

        You OVT'ers continually argue as if everything in this world has already reached full conclusion. Not so . . .there is more to come and more to learn.

        God DID NOT drive them out even though He said that He would "without fail".
        Do the named tribes listed in the prophecy of Joshua 3:10 function in that land today?

        Would you admit that you didn't know about this story and spoke out of ignorance? Will you agree (now that you know better) to never again assert that God did drive them out when God Himself states that He didn't drive them out?

        Will you admit you were wrong?
        Nope.

        And you will find I am not easily manipulated, either.

        Nang
        "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

        " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
        Gordon H. Clark

        "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
        Charles Spurgeon

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Nang View Post

          You OVT'ers continually argue as if everything in this world has already reached full conclusion. Not so . . .there is more to come and more to learn.

          Do the named tribes listed in the prophecy of Joshua 3:10 function in that land today?

          Nope.

          And you will find I am not easily manipulated, either.

          Nang
          Yet it was God Himself who said He DIDN'T drive them out.

          You see, you can appeal to whatever fantasy you like but God Himself claimed He didn't drive them out so you will have to take it up with Him.
          Josh 15:63 As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem to this day.

          Josh 16:10 And they did not drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites to this day and have become forced laborers.

          Jud 2:1-3 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars. But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.
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          Comment


          • You OVT'ers continually argue as if everything in this world has already reached full conclusion.
            Not so . . .there is more to come and more to learn.


            More than you know. More than anyone knows to be exact.

            "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
              Thank you for your comments, Clete.
              1. Do you believe that the sinner is dead, not just dying, but completely spiritually dead in their sins?
              2. Do you believe that there is absolutely nothing the sinner can do to save themselves, that is that the sinner cannot originate the love for God in their heart since the sinner is a captive and willing slave to sin unable to deliver themselves from its corruption?
              3. Do you believe that the lost are able to only sin more or sin less, that is the sinner is wholly inclined to evil and therefore lacks any abilities of spritual discernment?
              4. Do you believe that given the sinner's innate sinful state of mind, as a condition of his sinful nature, it is beyond the power of the the sinner's will to change it?
              The answers are only a simple 'yes' or 'no' requiring no straining of the scriptures to elaborate an answer.
              These would be simple 'yes' or 'no' questions if you definition of the terms weren't so loaded with your theology. As it is there is no way to answer these questions in a straight forward way as they are asked here.

              You've asked effectively "Do I believe in the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity.

              The answer is no, I do not. But you already knew that, didn't you?

              Resting in Him,
              Clete
              sigpic
              "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Nang View Post

                And you will find I am not easily manipulated, either.


                How can a Calvinist say they are not easily manipulated?

                "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                  Are you saying that God did "drive them out"?

                  A YES or NO would be great.
                  Good question. I assume you've done the historical work in tracking the movement of these tribes to give us a definitive answer.


                  However, They were not driven out before Israel as promised.

                  Muz
                  I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

                  2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Philetus View Post


                    How can a Calvinist say they are not easily manipulated?
                    Oh the irony!

                    Maybe what Nang meant to say was..... "I am not easily manipulated... I am completely manipulated."
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                    • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                      Oh the irony!

                      Maybe what Nang meant to say was..... "I am not easily manipulated... I am completely manipulated."
                      Stay tuned ... there is more to come.

                      "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                        Good question. I assume you've done the historical work in tracking the movement of these tribes to give us a definitive answer.
                        No. I can give a definitive answer because God gives us a definitive answer.
                        Josh 15:63 As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem to this day.

                        Josh 16:10 And they did not drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites to this day and have become forced laborers.

                        Jud 2:1-3 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars. But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.

                        In other words.... even if these nations no longer dwell there (which they don't) they weren't driven out by God because God says He didn't drive them out. And He didn't drive them out due to Israel's disobedience.
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                        TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

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                        • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                          Yet it was God Himself who said He DIDN'T drive them out.
                          I know God did not completely fulfill this prophecy, for this generation of Jews, because of their disobedience. But that generation of Jews, does not all Israel, make!

                          But here are two more Scriptures to factor in:

                          "Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites." Ezra 9:1

                          "Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth
                          out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
                          And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous." Nehemiah 9:7&8


                          This prophecy of Joshua 3:10 is part of the Abrahamic Covenant. Which had temporal fulfillments, as well as spiritual significance for all the sons of God.


                          You see, you can appeal to whatever fantasy you like but God Himself claimed He didn't drive them out so you will have to take it up with Him.
                          I fear you are being quite short-sighted, and robbing yourself of enjoying the deeper, and richer truths of God.
                          "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                          " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                          Gordon H. Clark

                          "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                          Charles Spurgeon

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Nang View Post
                            Does national Israel exist today?
                            Doesn't matter. The text clearly states that Israel will go to war with each of them, and that Israel will emerge victorious over them because God goes before them.

                            That didn't happen.

                            You can wiggle all you want, but you wind up where you end up with all of your theology: Nice try, but that's bad exegesis.

                            Muz
                            I don't care how systematic your theology is, until you show me how biblical it is.

                            2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by themuzicman View Post
                              Doesn't matter. The text clearly states that Israel will go to war with each of them, and that Israel will emerge victorious over them because God goes before them.
                              God gave them enough victory for them to occupy the land, as promised to Abraham. The fact the Jews were not 100% cleansed from these people, was due to their disobedience.

                              That didn't happen.
                              That is not the teaching of Nehemiah 9:8.

                              " And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous." Nehemiah 9:8

                              If the Holy Scriptures say that God has kept His Word, who are you, Oh, men, to say He has not!

                              You tread on very dangerous ground, IMO.
                              "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                              " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                              Gordon H. Clark

                              "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                              Charles Spurgeon

                              Comment


                              • God gave them enough victory for them to occupy the land, as promised to Abraham. The fact the Jews were not 100% cleansed from these people, was due to their disobedience.
                                Sounds like contingency on God's part.

                                "Proof? You want PROOF! You can't handle the proof!"

                                Comment

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