The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Evangelion]

Perhaps I can be of some assistance.

Perhaps I can be of some assistance.

It's a Gnostic text - a cheap rip-off which was hammered out by some weirdo.

You can find the entire thing here, a Website for students of the G.O.T. here, and a G.O.T. resources Website here.

Finally, an exceprt from the Catholic Encyclopaedia:

Besides the "Acta Thomae" of which a different and notably shorter redaction exists in Ethiopic and Latin, we have an abbreviated form of a so-called "Gospel of Thomas" originally Gnostic, as we know it now merely a fantastical history of the childhood of Jesus, without any notably heretical colouring. There is also a "Revelatio Thomae", condemned as apocryphal in the Degree of Pope Gelasius, which has recently been recovered from various sources in a fragmentary condition (see the full text in the Revue benedictine, 1911, pp. 359-374).

Hope this helps.

 

[Evangelion]

Excellent work you're doing here by the way, Kevin. :up:

 

[Kevin]

Evangelion,

Excellent work you're doing here by the way, Kevin.

Thanks! I'm mainly lurking for the most part now. Every now and then I might add my 2 cents (whatever that's worth ).

 

[c.moore]

Quote by Kevin
Baptism's necessity does not soley rely on Mark 16:16 alone. Does it really matter to you c.moore? Even if you were convinced that the Mark scripture is ligitemate, you still don't believe baptism's necessary, despite it's clear meaning. So why do you ask?


Quote by c.moore
I believe we should get baptized when we believe, and this is for every believer, "but" no way will I believe any teaching that water baptism is salvation in itself.
The thing that saves is Jesus Christ alone, and trusting Jesus, and being wash with His blood that washes us white as snow,
(WHEN WE REPENT), not when we get baptized.

Let God bless you

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Suit yourself.

I never said baptism in itself saves anybody. It is but one of the things listed in the requirements for salvation.

 

[biblicalanser4u]

Blessings,

Sorry for hardly posting anything on these threads for a few days.
I have been under the weather alittle and haven't had the energy to actually sit a respond to posts.

CMoore,

Yes, it's true people dispute Mark 16 as not being scripture. They couldn't be more wrong.

JustaChristian,

You better quit messing around and get yourself baptized for the remission of sins.

Well, here we go calling into question a man's salvation. How noble of you. :down: This is very familiar to United Church of Christ methods.

God gives salvation by his grace. He lays it on the table, and we must pick it up. We never possess it until we take it up. As long as it is on the table, it is offered but not received. We must take it up. We must believe that it is for us. Now if we think we can do enough works of merit to cause God to have to give us mercy, then we decieve ourselves. We can't earn salvation.

This is absolutely right.

Salvation will come when we do what God wants done.

Again, another truthful statement. So, the question must be asked, what does God want done for us to have salvation? You say you MUST be babtised for the remission of sins. Now, lets line up what you and Kevin say verses what Paul says.

Butto him who does not work but beleives on Him, who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteouness ...

Well, well; what have we here? Lets break this verse down. to him who DOES NOT WORK, his faith is accounted for righteouness... OOOOh, that just can't be right, can it Kevin? Can it JustaChristian? Right there Paul is telling you two to can your works related salvation and join Christ in the freedom of HIM! If you insist on working for your salvation, which includes babtisms, so under this dispensation of Grace, fellas,you MUST decide whether you want a free gift of grace, or whether you want God to pay you what you are owed, according to your work.*

Gods Peace and I hope you come to the right conclusion.

*The Plot

 

[JustAChristian]

Faith and Works..

Faith and Works..

Again, another truthful statement. So, the question must be asked, what does God want done for us to have salvation? You say you MUST be babtised for the remission of sins. Now, lets line up what you and Kevin say verses what Paul says.

Butto him who does not work but beleives on Him, who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteouness ...

Well, well; what have we here? Lets break this verse down. to him who DOES NOT WORK, his faith is accounted for righteouness... OOOOh, that just can't be right, can it Kevin? Can it JustaChristian? Right there Paul is telling you two to can your works related salvation and join Christ in the freedom of HIM! If you insist on working for your salvation, which includes babtisms, so under this dispensation of Grace, fellas,you MUST decide whether you want a free gift of grace, or whether you want God to pay you what you are owed, according to your work.*

Gods Peace and I hope you come to the right conclusion.

*The Plot

Well, here we go calling into question a man's salvation. How noble of you. This is very familiar to United Church of Christ methods.

My, my...what preacher has never called into question a person's salvation? What did Peter tell Simon? (Acts 8:23). I could find some more statements, but this one really is enough. And by the way, I am not a member of the United Church of Christ

Again, another truthful statement. So, the question must be asked, what does God want done for us to have salvation? You say you MUST be babtised for the remission of sins. Now, lets line up what you and Kevin say verses what Paul says.

Let me ask you something. Do you ever find the statement "for the remission of sins" related in some way to anything other than the gospel which requires being baptized? You can't preach the gospel without telling a person they must be baptized for the remission of sins and have preached all the gospel.

But to him who does not work but beleives on Him, who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteouness ...

Well, well; what have we here? Lets break this verse down. to him who DOES NOT WORK, his faith is accounted for righteouness... OOOOh, that just can't be right, can it Kevin? Can it JustaChristian? Right there Paul is telling you two to can your works related salvation and join Christ in the freedom of HIM! If you insist on working for your salvation, which includes babtisms, so under this dispensation of Grace, fellas,you MUST decide whether you want a free gift of grace, or whether you want God to pay you what you are owed, according to your work.*

There are works to earn merit and there are works to obey. The first I hold to be unscriptural which is the works mentioned in your verse. If we do the commandments of Christ without requiring justification we are working by faith, but if we feel we merit blessings we deceive ourselves and will not receive rewards. Justification is wholly by faith, but faith that works by love. (Gal. 5:6).

JustAChristian

 

[HopeofGlory]

Peter's gospel:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 (KJV)

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32 (KJV)


But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35 (KJV)
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all Acts 10:36 (KJV)

Paul's gospel:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so
by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; Gal. 2:7 (KJV)

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. Gal. 2:11 (KJV)

But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all,..... why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? Gal. 2:14 (KJV)

In Christ
Craig

 

[biblicalanser4u]

I have been accused on this post of changing my views on baptism. I think not. I have made the mistake of miss translating, “Eis”. Which I was honest enough to admit. I hope and it is my prayer that those reading this post will cast away this thought that water baptism is not important or essential today. It is also my hope and prayer that those who think that baptism saves them will also change their mind and come to the knowledge of the truth

unto 7un$t1, -t-8
prep.
5ME < un-, until, akin to ON unz (< und es), Goth und < IE *Vti < base *ant-, front, fore (> Gr anti, L ante, before) + ME to, TO16 old poet. var. of:. EIS must have a base. It must relate to something in existence.


The first Baptism to be discussed is what is referred to as John’s baptism. The question is, was the baptism that John baptized with for salvation? Did John’s baptism save anyone?

For the answer to this question we will look at Luke 3: 7&8 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come, bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Like so many in our churches to day, the people in John’s day knew that judgment was coming.
They came expecting to be baptized so they could escape that judgment, but John would have none of it. People come to our churches today for the same reason. If the message is be baptized and you will be saved out churches would be overflowing with lines out the door with people waiting to be baptized so they could go about there business with out fear of judgment and no repentance. Even those who claim to be atheist have a deep fear of what is to come after death. Otherwise why would they spend so much time and make it a point to deny the existence of God.

The very next statement proves that repentance was a requirement or prerequisite to baptism. “Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance” demands John. How do you know if someone is repentant. That is really very simple.What ever it is you are repentant of you stop doing. If someone tells you that they have changed their mind about something they stop doing whatever it is they are doing. If they continue to do what they have changed there mind about then they are not repentant. Repentance was demanded by John before baptism. Baptism is a work based on an act previously committed.

Where did John get his authority to baptism ? I can only state the obvious. The obvious is The Father. According to the Father’s instruction. He baptized after the response of repentance was made to the message he preached and what he said at the baptism is not recorded. He just administered baptism on repentance.

18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

In verse 18 Jesus said that all power had been given to Him and so He gave three commands.

First- Go and teach all nations. (peoples)

Second- Baptize all nations.(Peoples)

Third - Teach them to observe all things that you received of me.

Jesus then gave the deciples assurance, “I am with you all way,even unto the end of the world.

The first mission of the church is to teach those who don’t know who Jesus is, who He is. Next comes baptism. Those who receive the teaching are to be baptized and those who are baptized are to be thought those things that Jesus had delivered to the deciples.

Do you see a pattern here. John first thought, he then baptized and then he thought obedience. The authority for teaching, baptizing and instruction came from Jesus as God the Father had given Him all authority after His (JESUS"S) resurrection. The authority remained with the Father before the resurrection and that same authority was given to Jesus after the resurrection. The words “in the name of” should be understood as, “by the authority of”. As far as I know the authority nor the mission has ever changed, dispensationism not with standing. Jesus, by the authority He received from the Father, gave the authority and the command to baptize with water to the church. No authority has ever been given to the church to baptize with the Holy Spirit. Only Jesus has that authority. The church saves no one. Only Jesus saves.

While the book of Mark was written around A.D.60, I do believe that John Mark is a reliable witness. I believe that John Mark received his information from Christians with first hand accounts and his message is accurate, and as an assistant to Paul and Barnabus he experienced first hand the establishment of the first century church.

Regardless of the objections raised, I believe that Mark 16: 14-18 is an authentic quotation of Jesus and also I believe that John Mark observed and experienced the power resident in the early church as a fulfillment of these words of Jesus.

Mark 16:14  ¶Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18  They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19  ¶So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

The dispensationalest like to use Galations chapter 2 to say that water baptism is not necessary for obedience to the command of Jesus to water baptize believers.Galations was written in approximately 49-50 A.D. Mark was written around 60 A.D. so we know that at least 10 years after Galations was written that the church thought water baptism after belief. So strongly so that it was a given that new christians would be baptized. I cannot find any where in the scripture where Jesus ever resented His command that the new believer be baptized. The church that refuses to obey the command to baptize is disobedient to the command of Christ Jesus and any church that practices baptism to anyone other than a new believer is also disobedient to the command of Jesus.

It is also interesting to note that the structure of Mark 16:16 states that “he that believeth not shall be damed” and not, " he that is not baptized shall be damed”. Works follow faith not faith follows work. We do what we do because of our faith. It is not we do what we do in order to attain our faith.

 

[elected4ever]

The post by biblicalanser4u is not his. For some reason my post came up as his. I am Dan37. It is my post.

 

[Kevin]

biblicalanser4u,

Now, lets line up what you and Kevin say verses what Paul says.

Butto him who does not work but beleives on Him, who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteouness ...

First of all, it would be nice if you could site the book and verse so I don't have to hunt through the concordance to find out what you're talking about. Don't bother editing it in, I've found it. It would just be nice in the future. Thanks.

Well, well; what have we here? Lets break this verse down. to him who DOES NOT WORK, his faith is accounted for righteouness... OOOOh, that just can't be right, can it Kevin?

What do we have here? Here we have Paul explaining that we are justified by faith, not by works of the law.

What, do you take this to mean that we can be mindless jellyfish and be saved by merely believing, and doing nothing else? Wrong. Try explaining that to the people who are going to be cast into Hell because of their lack of good works towards man (Matt. 25:41-46).

Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Explain to me how we can obey Christ without doing works.

What does the apostle James have to say?

James 2:17
17) Thus also faith also, if it does not have works, is dead.

According to this verse, faith that is by itself is DEAD! Faith alone doesn't justify us... after all, how can a dead faith justify anybody?

Also, let's see what James says about Abraham, the same person you mentioned in your Romans 4:5 proof text:

James 2:21-22
21) Was not Abraham justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Here James is not saying that works by itself justified Abraham, it was his faith, just as it says in your Romans proof. But it's a faith that is alive with works, not dead unto itself. Paul would not preach about a dead faith - WHICH IS FAITH BY ITSELF (James 2:17).

Philippians 2:12
12) Therefore, my beloved, as you have always OBEYED, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

We are to WORK out our salvation. Works by itself? NO! Faith with works. Again, how can we show our obedience to Christ without works?

Revelation 20:12
12) And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

It's funny how we are going to judged by something (works) which supposedly has nothing to do with our salvation.

 

[Evangelion]

Bravo!

Bravo!

Beautiful, Kevin. :up: Just beautiful.

 

[Kevin]

HopeofGlory,

There is a discussion going on in the "Theologyonline News" forum that deals with dispensations ("The twelve dispensations - by Bob Hill"). Knowing that that's your core arguement, I would love to see your input on that thread. Evangelion last posted in that thread. I'd be interested to see how your argument stands up to his. If you have time .

 

[Kevin]

Thanks Evangelion.

 

[Evangelion]

No worries, mate. :up:

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,

Suit yourself.

I never said baptism in itself saves anybody. It is but one of the things listed in the requirements for salvation.

Quote c.moore

"Well" I , and many believers know that water baptism is not a requirement for salvation. If this was true I would not preach the good news the gospel any more, and there would also be millions of lost souls, including pastors,missionarys,and Evangelist.
More churches will be empty,and just have a hand full of people in them because,people will be walking their christian life under condemnation , and afraid they will maybe , not be saved no matter how much works, and obedience they do, because they don`t know they are trying to take the place of Jesus, trying to earn or obey their way to heaven gates.

The Reqirement to have salvation Kevin is this, and water baptism ritual is not on this reqirement list.

How to be saved or born again, and have salvation

Every one is a sinner and is separated from God.
“For all have sinned, aand come short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23.

God loves us all so much that he gave his son to die for our sins.
“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners , Christ died for us” Romans 5:8.

Death means seperation forever from God. Eternal life comes by trusting Jesus Christ.
For the wages of sin death ;but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” Romans 6:23.

In order to begin your new life in Christ, you must believe that Jesus died for your sins and declare that you accept him as savior.
“If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved” Romans 10:9.

This is God`s promise to you accept Jesus, he will accept you.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” romans 10:13.

AFTER THIS YOU ARE SAVED!


Look at all the SAVED words, they end with an( ed) past tense, meaning already done , or you are something already.


THIS SHOULD HAPPEN IN YOUR CHRISTIAN WALK FOLLOWING OUR FATHER JESUS CHRIST, SHOWING OUR FRUITS; AND LETTING OUR LIGHT SO SHINE;BECAUSE JESUS SPIRIT IS IN US .

WE SHOULD! WE SHOULD! WE SHOULD! WE SHOULD!

NOW after being SAVED we should start to follow Jesus Christ by getting baptized,we should start studying the bible, and taking communion, doing feet washing, paying our tithes, and we should obey and pay offering, and should we should start spreading the Word of God by witnessing , also lay hands on the sick and watch them get healed, and we Should help make other disciple for the kingdom of God, and we should always stay in prayer with Our Father and keep the relationship with HIM, and walk with Jesus .1Jo:1:6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo:1:7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo:1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo:1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo:1:10: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jo:4:15: Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jo:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jo:4:17: Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jo:4:18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jo:4:19: We love him, because he first loved us.

Kevin , the Love is that which help me want to obey Jesus , not the must, and the works. I do good things to try to please my Father Jesus, by not to work for a requirement of water baptism or any kind of religoius ritual.
Water baptism is in you walk with JESUS , and it is A should command, and I again, and again , again say that every real christian should have the truth in him, so they will want to get baptized because of their love toward Jesus in their walk.
I have no fear , because I have the love of Christ in me, and I can come to the throne of God with boldness, not because of some water ritual baptism , but because of the blood of Jesus, and my trusting , and walking with Jesus.


Let God bless you

 

[Melody]

And this is one reason why recieving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues is soo important.

We have evidence of our inheritance. We know in whom we have believed and have been sealed by his spirit.

Salvation is not a one time happening but an ongoing process. As the Lord woos us with His spirit, we become more and more like him.

Just as the bride anticipates her wedding day with hope and anticipation and looks and the gifts and tokens of promise that her groom has bestowed upon her, she has the hope of that coming day.

So, we anticipate the Day of our joining our groom and enjoy the benefits of His spirit that he has given us until our wedding day.

Are we wed yet, no. But we do have the hope and faith of our calling.

Eph 1:13 ... after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Rom 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

We do not yet have salvation but we do have the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

[NeoArminian]

Apostle Paul's Opinion On Tongues

Apostle Paul's Opinion On Tongues

Originally posted by Melody
And this is one reason why recieving the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues is soo important.

Christian Greetings Melody,

Would you like to be the one to tell a sweet little 90 old lady, who has just lost her husband after many long and lovingly faithfull years together, both at home and in the church, that they are going to hell because they don't speak in tongues? I would not! Not just because it would be a diffficult thing to do, but because I do not beleve that. No where in the Bible does it say you must speak in tongues in order to be saved.

Besides, the Apostle Paul seemed to emphasize that he did not not think the gift of tongues was all that beneficial to the church as compared to other gifts. Neither you nor I are as authoratative on the subject of the Holy Spirit and the gifts as Paul while on earth. He admitted to and thanked God for his gift of tongues but he emphasized the other spiritual gifts much more. Read the whole chapter of I Corinthians for a better understanding.

I Cor 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity [love], I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Peace To All,
NeoArminian

 

[c.moore]

Quote Melody
We do not yet have salvation but we do have the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Quote c.moore
We have a old song we sing in my church.
It goes like this melody.

He make me white as snow, and it nothing but the blood of Jesus.
It takes away all my sins, and it`s nothing but the blood of Jesus.

The thing that we must do daily is let the blood of Jesus wash us,and this is the ONLY thing that make us righteous, and Holy , and Just before God, not water baptism or getting saved everyday.
We walk to Glory to Glory everyday day.

Not only do we have hope, but we have confidence we are saved.
Ph'p:1:6: Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


When you ask God for forgiveness, do you hope God forgave you or do you know by faith that God Did forgive you and it is forgotten????????????

The bible says: Ph'p:3:13: Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Ph'p:3:14: I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

If I ask God to protect me, and keep me saved I have confident that my Father Jesus will do what I ask.

1Jo:5:13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Jo:5:14: And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
1Jo:5:15: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

God bless

 

[c.moore]

1Co:14:4: He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1Co:14:5: I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1Co:14:18: I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1Co:14:14: For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

But tongues is not salvation, it only builds up your spirit.

God bless.