The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[agape]

Re: Hey, Don't Overlook This...

Re: Hey, Don't Overlook This...

Originally posted by JustAChristian
More Information of Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38...

Because the evidence of Jesus’ statement which is recorded in Mrk 16:16 is to powerfully conclusive, it will be briefly noted here (with special concern with how it fits so marvelously with Acts 2:38).

In the original Greek of Mark 16:16, it is absolutely “ungetoverable” that both “believeth” and “is baptized” are aorist participles. This importance is obvious because the Greek New Testament never uses the aorist participle to refer to action which is subsequent to (occurs after) the acation of the main verb in the sentence (see Robertson and Davis, “A New Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament”, P. 297). Ray Summers, renowned Baptist Greek scholar in his book, “The Essentials of the Greek New Testament”, agreed with Robertson and Davis that the aorist participle never indicates action which is subsequent to the action of the main verb in the sentence. What does this mean? It means that whatever action is indicated by an aorist participle cannot refer to action which occurs after the action of the main verb in the sentence. This fact is very important!

Thus, since in Mark 16:16 both “believeth” and “is baptized” are aorist participles in the original Greek, it follows that neither “believeth” nor “is baptized” can occur after salvation. Thus, this passage constitutes proof positive that baptism comes before – not after – salvation from sin. Thus, the passage plainly teaches that no one is saved by the blood of Christ until after he both believes and is baptized by the authority of Christ.

In Acts 2:38 “repent” and “be baptized” are aorist imperatives which is a command to be done seeking a precise result. “For” (Greek, eis) the remission of sins. This clause is in the “accusative case”, and tell us that “eis” means “in order to”. One is to repent and be baptized in order to have remission of sins. There can be no other interpretation for these words. We hope that this brings insight to these verses.

Water baptism came as a foreshadow or preparation to receive the greater and only true baptism for remission of sins. For Jesus Christ himself said "For John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST..." Even John himself said in Mark I:8; "I indeed have baptized you with water: BUT YE SHALL BE BAPIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST."

Act 2:38:
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter said repent (confess the Savior from sin) and be baptized. When one confesses Jesus Christ is the Lord and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead, they are saved and at that very moment they received the gift of holy spirit. This is exactly what occurred with Cornelius and his household.

"and ye shall receive [lambano - into manifestation] the gift of holy spirit." Which they did for they all spoke in tongues.

Being baptized with the "holy spirit" replaced the old water baptism which has no effect or affect on salvation. Thus saith the Lord; "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE."

Both Mark 16:16 and Acts 1:5 deal with BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. Both accounts given refer to his ascending to His Father after he had spoken concerning spirit baptism.

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Counting on somebody else to try to breath life into your Mosaic Law aguement? I'm sure that whatever answer he gives, as long as it's against the idea that we are to keep Christ's commandments, you'll jump all over it and call it (gasp) the truth and to keep preaching it.

There are many verses in the which link obedience to Christ to salvation. Of course, you probably won't realize that unless the words "heaven" or "salvation" are in those verses. But I'll be happy to show you, just as I showed you that 1John 2:4 has a bearing on our salvation, liars will not be in heaven.

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: Hey, Don't Overlook This...

Re: Re: Hey, Don't Overlook This...

Originally posted by agape
Water baptism came as a foreshadow or preparation to receive the greater and only true baptism for remission of sins. For Jesus Christ himself said "For John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST..." Even John himself said in Mark I:8; "I indeed have baptized you with water: BUT YE SHALL BE BAPIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST."

Act 2:38:
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter said repent (confess the Savior from sin) and be baptized. When one confesses Jesus Christ is the Lord and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead, they are saved and at that very moment they received the gift of holy spirit. This is exactly what occurred with Cornelius and his household.

"and ye shall receive [lambano - into manifestation] the gift of holy spirit." Which they did for they all spoke in tongues.

Being baptized with the "holy spirit" replaced the old water baptism which has no effect or affect on salvation. Thus saith the Lord; "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE."

Both Mark 16:16 and Acts 1:5 deal with BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. Both accounts given refer to his ascending to His Father after he had spoken concerning spirit baptism.

You Wish!!
JustAChristian

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,

Counting on somebody else to try to breath life into your Mosaic Law aguement? I'm sure that whatever answer he gives, as long as it's against the idea that we are to keep Christ's commandments, you'll jump all over it and call it (gasp) the truth and to keep preaching it.

There are many verses in the which link obedience to Christ to salvation. Of course, you probably won't realize that unless the words "heaven" or "salvation" are in those verses. But I'll be happy to show you, just as I showed you that 1John 2:4 has a bearing on our salvation, liars will not be in heaven.

Then show me the verses salvation is obeying commandment with these words in it!

Or going to heaven takes obeying commandment ?

The bible is big you shouldn`t have any problem with a couple of verses proving such an important fact


God bless

 

[JustAChristian]

Baptism Is So Important Not To Be Overlooked

Baptism Is So Important Not To Be Overlooked

There are but two passages of Scripture that tell us how one gets into Christ. In Rom. 6:3 Paul wrote, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Again he wrote, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27). How does one get into Christ? Paul's answer -- one is "baptized into Christ." There is no other way into Christ! We get into Christ in precisely the same way that we get into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13), therefore, being in Christ is the same thing as being in his body, the church.

Symbolism needs to be understood in order to give proper biblical interpretation. Water is symbolized as a grave in Romans 6. We are buried in the grave of water. A grave consist of a hole, dirt and covering up. When we understand this we can understand the implications of the burial. Not only did Paul say that we are baptized into Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3), but he goes on to say that we are "baptized into his death." It was in Christ's death that he shed his blood, and his blood is that which remits sin. However, we must come into contact with his blood before our sins can be remitted. Where do we contact the blood of Christ? Paul tells us that it is in baptism. If he shed his blood in his death (and he did), and we are baptized into his death (and we are), then it is in baptism that we come into contact with the blood of Christ, which is able to remit sin. If not, why not?

In the latter part of Gal. 3:27, Paul states that in baptism we "put on Christ." Again we come to symbolism. This can not be accomplished in Holy Spirit, for the Spirit would be put on us. We would not be putting on Christ. Let me use a very simple illustration which all should be able to understand. Until a person puts on his coat, he is out of the coat. Once he has put the coat on, he is in the coat. Just so it is in our relation to Christ. We are out of Christ until we put Christ on, and Paul plainly states that we put Christ on in baptism. Therefore, until one is baptized "into Christ" he is out of Christ, because he has not put Christ on! I can hardly see how anyone can possibly misunderstand such plain, simple language, and yet there are thousands who seemingly cannot understand this, because they shout long and loud that baptism is not essential to salvation.

The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and those who believed Peter's preaching were baptized in water in the name of Christ on the same day. Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Spirit and the same day, likely within the same hour, was baptized in water in the name of Christ.
Jesus told Nicodemus that without being "born of water and of the Spirit" one can not enter this spiritual family, the church (John 3:1-8). "Born of water and of the Spirit" refers to the one new birth, accomplished when one is baptized in water according to (or, as directed by) the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5). Holy Spirit baptism was never meant for all people. Many examples are shown in Acts of people who were not Holy Spirit baptized but rejoiced in their relationship to Christ.

Holy Spirit baptism was never given as a command. How could it be? It was administered by deity, not men. And it was administered at a time and under circumstances chosen by deity, not by men. Water baptism, on the other hand, was given by command (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47,48; Acts 22:16). This is a baptism administered by men, and when performed scripturally is approved of God. And it is a baptism men submit to of their own free will. At a time of their choosing, in obedience to the Lord's command.

The one baptism of Eph. 4 is Christian era baptism. It is the baptism that is commanded. And it was designed to remain in effect until the end of the earth (Matthew 28:18-20). It is not the baptism of John. It is not the baptism of fire. And it is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Christian era baptism consists of immersion in water (Acts 8:38). Its prerequisites are faith, repentance, and confession (Mark 16:15,16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:37). It, therefore, is not for infants. It is administered in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19,20). And, it is for the remission of sins and for union with Christ (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Galatians 3 :26-27; Romans 6:3-5).

Summarizing, let me say that baptism is the door to forgiveness of sins. Why?, because it is at this point of obedience that one comes in contact with the death of Christ. It is only in the death of Christ that we may find salvation. And it is only in baptism that we may contact the death of Christ (Rom. 6:1-6). Paul affirms that we are baptized into his death, that is the death of Christ, and that is very important. Some contend that baptism only symbolizes a dying to sin on our part, in turning from our sins; that the only death connected with baptism is the spiritual dying to sin that occurs within us. But this simply is not true. It is true that a dying to sin occurs within us in conversion. But it is not true that this dying to sin is all that baptism represents. Paul's teaching is that we are baptized into the death of Jesus. So remember, now, we are baptized into the one body (1 Cor. 12:13); Christ is the savior of the body (Eph. 5:23); we are baptized into Christ (Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27); into his death (Rom. 6:3) where his blood was shed; and in baptism we put on Christ (Gal. 3:27). In view of such plain passages, how can anyone honestly feel that water baptism is unimportant and has no validity? How can they say that we can be cleansed and saved any other way?

JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

Everything You Need To Know About Holy Spirit Baptism.

Everything You Need To Know About Holy Spirit Baptism.

Check out this Link...
http://www.christianlibrary.org/authors/David_B_Brown/7Myths4b.htm#c4241

 

[c.moore]

Here is something That will anwer alot of quetion about the water baptis that I found interesting, and has alot of true facts.
This not my work but my same understanding , and teaching.
Check it out water divers!

Do you believe water baptism is necessary for salvation?

ANSWER:
Water baptism is NOT necessary for CONVERSION. In other words, one can receive the real Spirit of God (which is the baptism of the holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues) WITHOUT water baptism.... so it is obvious that water baptism is a "work" that God has finished with in this dispensation. I need also caution you on the use of the word "salvation" as a synonym for "conversion" - it is not so used in the Scriptures. Salvation is what Jesus is bringing with Him for the faithful (1Pet.1:5,9) - it is not something we attain in this lifetime. We are "converted" now --- we will be "saved" in the end, when Jesus says "well done, good and faithful servant."

RECENT VIEWER'S QUESTION:
You say that water baptism is unimportant. John 3:5 states "verily,verily I day unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter intothe kingdom of God."
"Acts 8:36 - God went to a lot of trouble to see that the Eunuch was baptized with water.

Act 10:47 - again the coventant was sealed with baptism in the name of Jesus.

Acts 19:5 - another example of baptism in Jesus name, for in the next verse is when they recieved the Holy Ghost. Is says "AND" when Paul laid his hands upon them...

Each example is clearly a separate experience. These are only the ones off of the top of my head. Obedience is vital in God's economy. We have leaders, because it is God's teaching. The spirit ALWAYS lines up with the Word. Why do you say water baptism is not necessary if the Word says it is?


ANSWER:
Thank you for your comments. However, you have a very important decision to make. There are clearly two baptisms ordained of God for specific times and people in the Bible. 1) John's water baptism, which was given to John by God for Israel, as a sign of repentance and preparation for the coming of the Messiah. 2) Jesus' baptism in the Spirit, which was given by God to Jesus, as a sign that one had truly repented, been sanctified, and received into the body of Christ. (please read these scriptures: Luke 3:16, 1Cor.6:11, 1Cor.12:13).
In every Biblical example of water baptism, we must see whether the people being water baptized needed to be - and whether those baptizing them should have been doing so. There were some in the Bible that should NOT have been water baptized, and that is why Paul told some, "I thank God that I baptized NONE of you..." (1Cor.1) - because it confused them.

These are the ONLY two baptisms ordained by God. They each had a specific purpose, they were each for a different people, and for a different time. Now you must make your decision. Water or Spirit - because Paul said that NOW - in this dispensation we are in, there is only "ONE baptism" (Eph.4:3-4).

Which one do you practice? Spirit only - in obedience to Jesus? Or water AND Spirit in rebellion to the truth? There is only one that counts.


RECENT VIEWER'S QUESTION:
I have enjoyed your web page and the teachings on them. I noticed that you have revelation knowledge concerning the HOLY GHOST baptism. GOD has revealed this to you. However concerning your teachings on water baptism I would strongly encourage that you take this back to the LORD in prayer. SPIRIT baptism is a necessary part of the plan of salvation as also is the baptism of water. I am confident that you will better understand baptism and its purpose if you consider this: Notice that baptism was not JOHN'S idea, but had existed in GOD'S plan LONG before John was ever born. JOHN simply began baptism in a different manner making ready for the infilling of the SPIRIT.

ANSWER:
If it is possible to be saved (in the end) without something - we don't need it any more. If it is possible to receive the holy Ghost WITHOUT water baptism - then God is telling us something about a baptism that he has finished with . . . it's no longer necessary.
It was a "type" of the baptism to come. If we are "baptized into the body" by water - then we need it. But we "are all baptized into one body BY THE SPIRIT" (as Paul taught in 1Cor.12:13). So if a person can be made a member of the church (which is what happens when one receives the Spirit), then "water" is something "extra" which only men require now - not God.

It was necessary in John's day, because John was performing it during a time when ceremony was part of acceptable worship to God . . . but as the other ceremonies of the law, God's "pattern" is fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and HIS baptism. In other words, as John said, "I must decrease, and he must increase". Notice that Jesus NEVER baptized anyone in water (John 4:2) - he has a better one, and as Paul wisely said as the "master builder", NOW, there is only ONE baptism (Eph.4:5).

I suggest YOU re-think YOUR position, because you are practicing TWO baptisms, and that is not what the scriptures teach. And, as important, is that the Spirit is NOT saying to do that today.

God bless

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Then show me the verses salvation is obeying commandment with these words in it!

Just because a verse doesn't contain specific words like "salvation" or "heaven" doesn't mean that it doesn't have an effect upon our salvation! Is your train of thought that narrow, c.moore?

I've already shown you 1John 2:4. Tell me, c.moore, will liars be in heaven? Don't just ignore me, answer the question! I've proven that they won't be in heaven. How can you tell me that 1John 2:4 doesn't effect our salvation, when the result of being a liar is being sent to hell? If someobdy is in hell, are they saved?! Well, are they?

Here are others:

John 8:51
51) "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.

I have provided a verse that shows that IF (key word there) somebody keeps Jesus's word shall never see death. Those who never see death will be saved. Those who see death will not be saved. Do you have a verse that shows that people who don't keep His word will never see death? I want scipture, not one of your analogies.


Hebrews 5:9
9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

This verse even spells it out for you. You asked for a verse that shows that obedient is linked to salvation, well there ya go! To whom is Jesus the author of eternal salvation? All who obey Him. Now show me a verse that says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all that do not obey Him. No analogies, I want scripture.


Revelation 22:14
14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Who has rights to the tree of Life? Those who do His commandmetns. Those who do not have rights to the tree of life will not be in Heaven, nor will they have eternal life. Now show me a verse that says that the disobedient will have rights to the tree of Life. No analogies, I want scripture.

Now, c.moore, I have shown you verses that indicate that it is those who are obedient to Christ that will:

• Never see death
• Have Jesus as their author of eternal salvation
• Have rights to the tree of life

Where are your verses (not analogies), c.moore, that show that the disobedient will have the things listed above? In your words: "The bible is big you shouldn`t have any problem with a couple of verses proving such an important fact"

I have this funny feeling that you're going say something like "I don't see salvation in those verses.". If you do, then explain to me how each one of those verses do not have a bearing upon our salvation, for I have shown how they do have a bearing upon our salvation.

 

[agape]

Re: Re: Re: Hey, Don't Overlook This...

Re: Re: Re: Hey, Don't Overlook This...

Originally posted by JustAChristian


You Wish!!
JustAChristian

You can't wish for something that is already there. Acts 1:5: For John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST not many days hence. :thumb:

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,



Just because a verse doesn't contain specific words like "salvation" or "heaven" doesn't mean that it doesn't have an effect upon our salvation! Is your train of thought that narrow, c.moore?

I've already shown you 1John 2:4. Tell me, c.moore, will liars be in heaven? Don't just ignore me, answer the question! I've proven that they won't be in heaven. How can you tell me that 1John 2:4 doesn't effect our salvation, when the result of being a liar is being sent to hell? If someobdy is in hell, are they saved?! Well, are they?

Here are others:

John 8:51
51) "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.

I have provided a verse that shows that IF (key word there) somebody keeps Jesus's word shall never see death. Those who never see death will be saved. Those who see death will not be saved. Do you have a verse that shows that people who don't keep His word will never see death? I want scipture, not one of your analogies.


Hebrews 5:9
9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

This verse even spells it out for you. You asked for a verse that shows that obedient is linked to salvation, well there ya go! To whom is Jesus the author of eternal salvation? All who obey Him. Now show me a verse that says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all that do not obey Him. No analogies, I want scripture.


Revelation 22:14
14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Who has rights to the tree of Life? Those who do His commandmetns. Those who do not have rights to the tree of life will not be in Heaven, nor will they have eternal life. Now show me a verse that says that the disobedient will have rights to the tree of Life. No analogies, I want scripture.

Now, c.moore, I have shown you verses that indicate that it is those who are obedient to Christ that will:

• Never see death
• Have Jesus as their author of eternal salvation
• Have rights to the tree of life

Where are your verses (not analogies), c.moore, that show that the disobedient will have the things listed above? In your words: "The bible is big you shouldn`t have any problem with a couple of verses proving such an important fact"

I have this funny feeling that you're going say something like "I don't see salvation in those verses.". If you do, then explain to me how each one of those verses do not have a bearing upon our salvation, for I have shown how they do have a bearing upon our salvation.

You said:Just because a verse doesn't contain specific words like "salvation" or "heaven

I thought I would make it narrow and simple for you and you can`t twist the verse the way you like.

You asked :I've already shown you 1John 2:4. Tell me, c.moore, will liars be in heaven? Well I don`t think so,because if somebody is really saved already why would they want to be a liar?

the bible says:Col:3:5: Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col:3:6: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col:3:7: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col:3:8: But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col:3:9: Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col:3:12: Put on therefore, as the elect of God
holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col:3:13: Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col:3:14: And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col:3:15: And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body;


You asked:How can you tell me that 1John 2:4 doesn't effect our salvation, when the result of being a liar is being sent to hell? If someobdy is in hell, are they saved?! Well, are they?


This is the same as to ask if somebody doesn`t believe how can they go to heaven?:doh:

Joh:3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Regarding being baptized in "water" and in "spirit" (John 3:5) --- Jesus explained what he meant in the very next verse (John 3:6): "that which is born of the flesh [water] is flesh [i.e. a human birth]; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit [i.e. a spiritual birth]. Jesus was saying that being born the first time in this flesh (water), was not enough. We must be born a second time (in Spirit). If being born "of water" was, as you say, water baptism, then a person must be born again, AGAIN!(Three times - once into this world in the flesh, a second time in water baptism, and a third time in Spirit baptism). Regarding Peter's baptizing of the Gentiles --- that was something that Peter and the first Jewish believers did. When Peter and those with him were astonished that the holy Ghost was poured out on the Gentiles, Peter "could not forbid them water", because that is what every Jew who repented prior to this happening did. If you were a Jew, and you repented - then you submitted to John the Baptist's baptism of repentance - and then, submitted again to Jesus' baptism in Spirit. There was no other way (in Peter's and the Jews' minds, that is). However, as the gospel was going forward, and as the truth of Jesus's baptism was being made known, God needed a new man. He needed a man that could explain (as a wise master builder) what it was that was necessary in the dispensation we are now in - and that man was the Apostle Paul. HE was the one who would explain how a person was made one of God's children NOW. Paul taught that "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body". When a person receives the Spirit, it is God saying that the person receiving it has repented. That experience is being born again. That is the new birth experience - the baptism of the holy Ghost (with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. There were only two baptisms ever ordained of God: 1) John the Baptist's (in water) and Jesus's(in the Spirit). One was a shadow "type". The other was the reality in Christ. One has "faded away". The other is here. Or as Paul said, there is now "ONE baptism" (Eph.4:5). So we are faced with the stark reality of choosing, as Paul did, which baptism truly washed away sin. And once that choice is made, we must (as we do the other ceremonial shadow types of the law) let the "shadow" go. Which is the real ONE baptism now? Water or Spirit? If we choose water, then we choose to cling to what Paul called "dead works" --- works that were once ordained by God, but which he has now done away with. If we choose Spirit baptism - then it becomes obvious that water baptism is a useless

You said :Who has rights to the tree of Life? Those who do His commandmetns. Those who do not have rights to the tree of life will not be in Heaven, nor will they have eternal life. Now show me a verse that says that the disobedient will have rights to the tree of Life. No analogies, I want scripture.

Ro:3:9: What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Ro:3:10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro:3:11: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro:3:12: They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ro:3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I have to go I`ll be back with part 2 praise God

 

[agape]

Hi c.moore,

I agree with most of what you say and especially liked your explanation concerning Nicodemus; however, I cannot agree with your following quote:

"Regarding Peter's baptizing of the Gentiles --- that was something that Peter and the first Jewish believers did. When Peter and those with him were astonished that the holy Ghost was poured out on the Gentiles, Peter "could not forbid them water", because that is what every Jew who repented prior to this happening did."

Cornelius and his household were never water baptized. I know it "appears" to say so in the ending verses of Acts 10, but I believe it was "spiritual water" that Peter was referring to. He closes saying that he had commanded (arranged towards) them to be baptized with the holy spirit as it was proven that they were already baptized with the holy spirit because they spoke in tongues.

Peter, when he responded to the circumcised believers who were also born again of God's Spirit and who were bewildered that the Gentiles should also be baptized with the holy spirit, said "can any man forbid water"? No one ever mentioned water baptism for Peter to give an answer on water baptism. Even in Acts 11 when Peter gives the account of what occurred with the Gentiles water baptism is never mentioned. Rather, he tells those in Jerusalem that when he heard the Gentiles speak in tongues he remembered what the Lord had told him.

Acts 11:15-17:
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

He recalled what Jesus had said regarding being baptized with the holy spirit and also in verse 17 with Peter saying "...what was I, that I should withstand or "forbid, hinder or prevent" God? Who was he to stop or prevent God from having the Gentiles baptized with the holy spirit. This is why "forbid water" does not fit and this is why I believe he is referring to "spiritual water." This fits with both chapters 10 and 11.

Peter knew that they were already baptized; "...but ye shall BE BAPTIZED with the Holy Ghost...." He was clearly saying that it was not with water that they should be baptized with, but with the HOLY SPIRIT. Why would he then turn around and have them water baptized? Makes no logical sense whatsoever.

I encourage you to very carefully study both Acts 10 and Acts 11 together.

God bless you

 

[c.moore]

hello Agape

You saideter knew that they were already baptized; "...but ye shall BE BAPTIZED with the Holy Ghost...." He was clearly saying that it was not with water that they should be baptized with, but with the HOLY SPIRIT. Why would he then turn around and have them water baptized? Makes no logical sense whatsoever.

Quote c.moore

See This is why I started the thread what scripture is water baptism and spiritual baptism.

Well Agape I see it like this.
I know like you do that water baptism is not salvation and that`s for sure ,but if we are saved we should get water baptized as we do our christian walk and knowing jesus by following Jesus.
Water baptism is just a symbol, and I think you agree , and no way salvation,and they already believed so they were saved before any water baptism.

Ac:10:43: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

We see here that anybody can be saved by belief on Jesus and repentance of sins before any water baptism because we know it sins that depart us from Christ only.

Ac:10:44: While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Ac:10:45: And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here we see plainly that they was baptized in the Holy Ghost after they believed, and heard the Word of God.
We also see that preaching the gospel is the introduction and offer for salvation, and second is remission of sins and the baptism of the Spirit, so we can see this in these verse I showed.

So let`s continue Agape praise God!
Ac:10:46: For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

this verse is the evidence that they recieved the Holy Ghost baptism, and now Peter is saying this after all this has happen.

Ac:10:47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

I see this that everybody knew about John the baptist water baptism ,but they also realized the importance and the real baptism which everybody tarryed and waited for the spiritual baptism,so peter didn`t what anybody to say we shouldn`t let them do water baptism , and forbid it, because I believe Peter knew these people understood what the real baptism is, and that the water baptism was just for them a traditional ritual that they just wanted to do as a symbol, not salvation because they knew they had salvation we they believed and repented praise God.
I hope you can see it like me,and please feel free to correct me where I am wrong some where.

Ac:10:48: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Now this is the ice on the cake Agape about water baptism becáuse he now tells them to get water baptized in the Name of Christ Jesus.
If this is a Spiritual baptism in this verse then this would mean they got spiritual baptized twice because in verse 47 they have already recieved the Spiritual Baptism which is mention in that verse.
This is also proof that when somebody says we can`t get the baptism of the Holy Spirit until we are water baptism don`t know what they are talking about , and they have false biblical information, and will be decieved and not rightly dividing the Word of truth.

Now in Ac:11:14: Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Ac:11:15: And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Again we see in verse 14 the house was first saved and as the Word was preached the anointing came on them and they got Spiritual baptized ,and if this happen to them from the beginning this mean they spoke in tongue like in the beginning when they were Spiritual baptized praise God.


Ac:11:16: Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Now this is again proof they got Spiritual baptized and there is no mention of them being water baptised so I can agree this is only a Spiritual baptism.

But you must realize that there is a message about John water baptism which many did practise, but this is still no proof that they did the water ritual baptism in this verse.
I MYSELF or my personal thinking is that they could have got water baptized but my opinion is not biblical according to what this verse is really saying, so I just asume they might have got alsowater baptized but no way for salvation,or to get saved , they didn´t have to get save twice either according to the verse 14.

agape your doing a blessed work for the Lord, and I thank God that you are a Child of God praise God.

God Bless you

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,



Who has rights to the tree of Life? Those who do His commandmetns. Those who do not have rights to the tree of life will not be in Heaven, nor will they have eternal life. Now show me a verse that says that the disobedient will have rights to the tree of Life. No analogies, I want scripture.

Now, c.moore, I have shown you verses that indicate that it is those who are obedient to Christ that will:

• Never see death
• Have Jesus as their author of eternal salvation
• Have rights to the tree of life

Where are your verses (not analogies), c.moore, that show that the disobedient will have the things listed above? In your words: "The bible is big you shouldn`t have any problem with a couple of verses proving such an important fact"

I have this funny feeling that you're going say something like "I don't see salvation in those verses.". If you do, then explain to me how each one of those verses do not have a bearing upon our salvation, for I have shown how they do have a bearing upon our salvation.

you Asked :Where are your verses (not analogies), c.moore, that show that the disobedient will have the things listed above? In your words: "The bible is big you shouldn`t have any problem with a couple of verses proving such an important fact


This is paul talking about himself not obeying Ro:7:18: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Ro:7:19: For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Ro:7:20: Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

So will Paul go to hell because of his disobedience?

Ro:7:24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

You said: Now show me a verse that says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all that do not obey Him. No analogies, I want scripture.


John 3:16
no where mention of obedience just believe.

believing is the key
1Jo:5:10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jo:5:11: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo:5:12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jo:5:13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


believing and obeying mean trusting in Jesus.

Ro:3:4: God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
peace

 

[Apollos]

What a joke !!!

What a joke !!!

Do you remember Laurel & Hardy?

They were quite the comedy team.

I remember one episode where they had very little money, but decided they would buy and share a soda. After the purchase Hardy graciously offered to allow Laurel to drink his half of the soda first. At that point Laurel drank all of the soda tipping the glass up high into the air to consume to the last drop.

Hardy, in astonishment and digust, asked why Laurel would do such a thing. Laurel whined in reply,

“I couldn’t help it. My half was on the bottom!”

When I read agape’s treatment of Acts 10 above, this scenario came quickly to mind. Agape’s treatment of Cornelius’ conversion reflects the same “logic”. And this he managed to do without a partner to help.

If you think your “half” is on the bottom, it will not matter how much truth and logic you run over to get to your “half” !!!
:nono:

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

You said:Just because a verse doesn't contain specific words like "salvation" or "heaven

I thought I would make it narrow and simple for you and you can`t twist the verse the way you like.

I'm not twisting anything, you're just too blind to realize that there are verses in the Bible which do not contain the words "heaven" or "salvation", yet they still have a bearing upon our salvation. Here's another example:

Luke 13:3
3) I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

The words "heaven" and/or "salvation" do not appear anywhere in that verse. Are you going to tell me that this verse has no bearing upon salvation?

quote kevin:
You asked :I've already shown you 1John 2:4. Tell me, c.moore, will liars be in heaven?

quote c.moore:
Well I don`t think so,because if somebody is really saved already why would they want to be a liar?

The question is not why somebody would want to be a liar, the question is, will liars be in Heaven? They won't be, and you agree with that by saying "Well I don't think so".

Now that you have stated that you don't think liars will be in Heaven, and the fact that those who do not do His commandments are liars, how can you say that doing Jesus's commandments are not necessary for salvation?

You asked:How can you tell me that 1John 2:4 doesn't effect our salvation, when the result of being a liar is being sent to hell? If someobdy is in hell, are they saved?! Well, are they?


This is the same as to ask if somebody doesn`t believe how can they go to heaven?

Exactly. They are two different questions with the same answer. Will somebody who doesn't believe go to Heaven? No. Will somebody who does not do His commandmtns, being liars, go to Heaven? No, because liars will not be in Heaven!

Joh:3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Regarding being baptized in "water" and in "spirit" (John 3:5) --- Jesus explained what he meant in the very next verse (John 3:6): "that which is born of the flesh [water] is flesh [i.e. a human birth]; and that which is born of the spirit is spirit [i.e. a spiritual birth]. Jesus was saying that being born the first time in this flesh (water), was not enough. We must be born a second time (in Spirit). If being born "of water" was, as you say, water baptism, then a person must be born again, AGAIN!(Three times - once into this world in the flesh, a second time in water baptism, and a third time in Spirit baptism). Regarding Peter's baptizing of the Gentiles --- that was something that Peter and the first Jewish believers did. When Peter and those with him were astonished that the holy Ghost was poured out on the Gentiles, Peter "could not forbid them water", because that is what every Jew who repented prior to this happening did. If you were a Jew, and you repented - then you submitted to John the Baptist's baptism of repentance - and then, submitted again to Jesus' baptism in Spirit. There was no other way (in Peter's and the Jews' minds, that is). However, as the gospel was going forward, and as the truth of Jesus's baptism was being made known, God needed a new man. He needed a man that could explain (as a wise master builder) what it was that was necessary in the dispensation we are now in - and that man was the Apostle Paul. HE was the one who would explain how a person was made one of God's children NOW. Paul taught that "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body". When a person receives the Spirit, it is God saying that the person receiving it has repented. That experience is being born again. That is the new birth experience - the baptism of the holy Ghost (with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. There were only two baptisms ever ordained of God: 1) John the Baptist's (in water) and Jesus's(in the Spirit). One was a shadow "type". The other was the reality in Christ. One has "faded away". The other is here. Or as Paul said, there is now "ONE baptism" (Eph.4:5). So we are faced with the stark reality of choosing, as Paul did, which baptism truly washed away sin. And once that choice is made, we must (as we do the other ceremonial shadow types of the law) let the "shadow" go. Which is the real ONE baptism now? Water or Spirit? If we choose water, then we choose to cling to what Paul called "dead works" --- works that were once ordained by God, but which he has now done away with. If we choose Spirit baptism - then it becomes obvious that water baptism is a useless

What does this have to do with our discussion? If you want to debate John 3:5, fine, but let's finish this first. Did you even write the stuff above about John 3:5?

You said :Who has rights to the tree of Life? Those who do His commandmetns. Those who do not have rights to the tree of life will not be in Heaven, nor will they have eternal life. Now show me a verse that says that the disobedient will have rights to the tree of Life. No analogies, I want scripture.

Ro:3:9: What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Ro:3:10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro:3:11: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Ro:3:12: They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ro:3:23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro:3:24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro:3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro:3:26: To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Well of course we are all sinners and fall short of His glory. This doesn't change the fact that we are expected to keep His commandments. Remember, Jesus is the author of salvation to all who obey Him, not to those who don't obey Him (Heb. 5:9). How do I know that Jesus is not the author of eternal salvation to all that don't obey Him? Because those that don't obey Him are liars, and liars will go to hell.

Nothing in the verses you quoted changes the fact that it is the obedient that will have rights to the tree of life. Nowhere in there did it say that the disobedient will have rights to the tree of life. Nowhere. Try again.

This is paul talking about himself not obeying Ro:7:18: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Ro:7:19: For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Ro:7:20: Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

So will Paul go to hell because of his disobedience?

If Paul was disobedient and didn't repent and ask forgiveness of his sins, then he would be turninig his back on God, and yes, he would be hellbound. But being guided by the Holy Spirit, I'm sure Paul had the sense to repent of his sins. Indeed, the writings of Paul shows His obedience.

You said: Now show me a verse that says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all that do not obey Him. No analogies, I want scripture.


John 3:16
no where mention of obedience just believe.

Oh, so since you can't find a scripture that says the disobedient will have Jesus as their author of eternal salvation, you pull up this verse, and give the pathetic defense of "no where mention of obedience just believe".

This is another example of you not taking what the whole Bible says into consideration! No, John 3:16 does not mention obedience, but Heb. 5:9 does! Are you just going to pretend that Heb 5:9 doesn't exist? You can't deal with it, can you? So instead of acknowledging what Heb. 5:9 says, you run and hide behnid another verse and pretend that Heb. 5:9 doesn't say what it does. To quote the movie "A Few Good Men": "You can't handle the truth!"

You see, I fully believe both John 3:16 AND Heb. 5:9, for they both fit what I've been preaching this entire time: that it takes belief (John 3:16) AND obedience (Heb 5:9)! Belief without obedience is NOTHING, for those who are not obedient are liars, and liars will be found in Hell, not Heaven.

Your arguement is ridiculous. What if I looked at the sciptures with the same narrow view that you do? What if I looked at Heb. 5:9 and came to the conclusion that belief isn't necessary because there is no mention of belief in that verse. See how ridiculous that is?!

Indeed, you can't defend your doctrine without ignoring other parts of the Bible. That should tell you something.

 

[HopeofGlory]

Kevin,

Paul said... "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me".

What does Paul mean by "it is no more I that do it"?

In Christ
Craig

 

[JustAChristian]

You've Forgotten Another Point...

You've Forgotten Another Point...

Originally posted by servantofChrist
Hello "Freak,"

You said, "Salvation is by faith and faith alone." And you cited several scriptures pertaining to salvation, saying that none of them mentioned baptism.

Let's take one of those verses you cited and use YOUR OWN reasoning and see where it takes us:

You cited Acts 16:31, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And you said that baptism is not mentioned in those words, therefore, you reason, baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Those words do not mention REPENTANCE either. So according to YOUR reasoning, repentance is NOT necessary for salvation either. And, according to your reasoning, neither is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ necessary for salvation, because they are not mentioned at all in Acts 16:31 either!

Your use of the scriptures is erroneous, "Freak." You need to read and apply ALL scriptures in the N. T. that pertain to our salvation, not just a few.

You believe and teach that baptism does not save a person. But the apostle Peter, SPEAKING BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, said: "BAPTISM NOW SAVES YOU" (1 Pet. 3:21). Therefore, it is YOU, not the advocates of baptism, who is speaking lies and advocating false doctrine! Your view, and your statements, are diametrically opposed to plain statements of truth in God's word about baptism and its relationship to salvation.

I hope you will give extend and careful consideration to these things, "Freak."

Though what you have said is true, there is one important fact for salvation. Being baptized is for the remission of sins, but salvation comes when one has "sown to the Spirit" -- "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

JustAChristian

 

[Kevin]

HopeofGlory,

Could you please reference the verse? Thanks.

 

[c.moore]

Hey Kevin
You asked: how can you say that doing Jesus's commandments are not necessary for salvation?

Because doing commandments for salvation trying to earn salvation, and work for salvation,and this is out of order for recieving salvation Kevin.
We do commandment because we are led by the Spirit to do them but no way for salvation which is just given to us as a gift.
You are completly right we should be obedient, and obey the commandments if we are children of God and belong to Him as adopted children Rom8:15.
A adopted child doesn`t have to obey or do commandment before being choosen in a family ,they are just elected and they only have to recieve there new family just like we only have to recieve Jesus whop has choosen us freely praise God.

Now to stay strong and a good faithful servant pleasing the Lord Jesus we should obey so we can be blessed and have long life and be prosperious.

The way you interpretate salvation is by earning salvation through obedience and you can`t do that because you are can`t get perfect,but you can try to hit the mark by not sinning.
Only Jesus can be righteous us, and make us perfect when we stand before God. Not our obedience to commandment ,because then this will cancel out grace and mercy and favor of God Kevin,that alot of work my brother. That`s a heavy ,heavy burden , and Jesus burden is light, and on your own works of trying to win salvation by commandments is hard core religion.
Now if you want scripture on belief ,and trusting God is the key and only way for salvation I can show you that.

I think the reason you are stucked on doing commanent to earn salvation is because you don`t understand wahat Grace is , and what grace does, and the meaning of a gift.

Jesus said it is finished all the things we must do to earn salvation was done by Jesus on the cross praise god.

This is the good news that all we have to do to have salvation is to trust Jesus and to repent and have the relatioship with Jesus
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Now if this verse said Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto doing commandment and not becoming a liar so we can have salvation, I would say you are right with your doctrine of belief,but it doesn`t say that praise the Lord.

You and I know that the bible doesn`t contradict itself so you can`t say the scripture I use fight against your scriptures.
it really come down how we interpretate the scriptures.

For instance 1Jo:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

We see here that Jesusis the righteous and only through Him he speaks for us and makes it right for us

1Jo:2:2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus is the way we can be free from sins, including being a liar.

1Jo:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Jesus wants us to have a personal relationship and know Jesus and have Jesus in us, and when Jesus is really in you you would want to act like Jesus because you will have the character of Jesus in you , and Jesus loves to obey, and knows how to obey, and will help you to have the desire to do the commandments after you are saved and have salvation. Knowing Jesus is really the trusting and relationship in Jesus, and this grows day by day the knowing of Jesus, and obedience.

if there is no change whatsoever in a person I doubt that they know Jesus,and they are maybe not saved yet,even if they say they are saved,they might be lieing, and they don`t have Jesus in them,so they can`t go to heaven,because they haven`t recieved jesus in thier heart to do what Jesus would do,or the Spirit say to do, so we that why this next verse comes and says this.

1Jo:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But this is not saying you must earn doing commandment to get salvation.

It`s because of Jesus in us that help us to do the will of God , and this Spirit is what guides us and motivate us to train our soul to do good things, and quicken our mortal body praise God, but Jesus doesn`t live in a liar,or a person who practise sins and don`t repent. Jesus can only come into a person when the blood had cleaned out the heart from sins also lieing and lust, when they are born again,and also have fallen in thier first love with Jesus.
Now we do have some people who really got saved and have salvation, but they still are smoking or doing some of the old sinful sins, or habits, but you see them going to the elders for prayers, and pastors , and other grown christian to help them get renewed in thier minds as they learn to walk and the strong man destroyed.
The growing and walk is a prossess and it takes time and somtimes failures, and falls,but the thing that´counts the most is to get up and keep letting Jesus live in you.
So when the truth which is Jesus is not living in you and you stay in the same sins and there is no guiltyness when you sin and you feel it ok to do all the fleshly sins freely with any forginess then you are not a christian and you are not a believer , and unbeliever are condemned according to M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;( but he that believeth not shall be damned.)

So we see here very clearly and plainly this verse is not talking or meaning salvation , it is meaning if the person is a true believer and HAS salvation he has Jesus in them, and when Jesus is not in them they are still a sinner,or liar and unbeliever with no cleaning of the blood of Jesus.

1Jo:2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Jesus is the Word John 1:1 and this is also saying we will fall more in love with Jesus meaning we will want to do more and obey more and train more by knowing Jesus by studying His Word and letting the Spirit of God be in us and guide us because we are God sheeps, and the sheeps hear his voice, and LOves to hear the shepard voice praise God , and when the Shepard call we will Love to come, we don`t have to qualify to come or earn or do any works to be able to come, we are qualifyed already because we are sheeps, and don`t have to prove to our shepard we are His sheep he can see it plainly and everybody else can see the different from a sheep from a pig.
A sheep doesn`t have to do commandments to become what he already is as a sheep.
now some sheeps do wounder away and the shepard has to go and find that disobedient sheep that can get eaten by the wolf, but praise God that disobedient SHEEP is still a sheep.

If everytime this sheep runs away and the sheperd come to get that sheep and the sheep run away from the sheperd and won`t come back to the sheperd, sooner or latter the sheep will be eaten from a hunger wolf, that why we must learn to stay in the presence of the Lord and go for help when we can so we don`t get eaten up one day.
Kevin do you understand know, because I can`t make these verse any simple as this,to show the true revelation ,and message.

1Jo:2:6: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If Jesus is IN you you will walk the walk , and if you are a believer saved with salvation you will go walk and follow Jesus including getting water baptized after being saved and have salvation as a symbol of your walk , not salvation, because you have salvation as soon as you confessed and repented, and was wahed by the blood of Jesus which is spiritual. AMEN

God bless you

 

[c.moore]

Hello Kevin

you saidid you even write the stuff above about John 3:5?

No, it just some true facts that I agree with that explained very good about salvation.


You said :Nothing in the verses you quoted changes the fact that it is the obedient that will have rights to the tree of life. Nowhere in there did it say that the disobedient will have rights to the tree of life. Nowhere. Try again

I was just trying to show that it only through Jesus alone we are righteous without doing any commandment, and we have salvation as soon as we recieve Jesus as our personal savior that makes us not liars,we are righteous like I quoted in Rom 3:23,24.

When you said nowhere in the verse is disobeying will have right to the tree is basically saying unbelievers have no right to the tree, and those who don`t trust Jesus as thier savior have any right , and those who are not washed in the blood of Jesus have no right ,of course there in condemnation to these people,they are not even elected children of God.

You try to put legalism on salvation and you can`t do that Kevin.

Jesus is the one who set us free indeed, that why he came with grace and favor of mercy praise God.

We are saved by grace not saved by commandment, we live in the new testament grace law, and led by the Spirit which you agreed when I ask you if we are led by the spirit is this ok.

Of course unbeliever are sinners and they are led by thier flesh and lie and do sinful things, but not the believer we have Christ in us that gave us salvation as a free gift not earn or worked for or obeyed for.

You can not do the work of the cross for Jesus only Jesus can do the finished work.
We don`t have to work for the ticket to get through the heaven gates, we just recieve it, take it as a gift bought and paid by Jesus.

You said:Oh, so since you can't find a scripture that says the disobedient will have Jesus as their author of eternal salvation, you pull up this verse, and give the pathetic defense of "no where mention of obedience just believe".

It true there is no verse that say this what you wrote "but "really you are saying show me a verse that say sinners can have eternal salvation.


Heb:5:9: And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This verse is first of all saying and proving Jesus is the creator and the way to salvation and all them who trust and love Jesus will obey and believe Jesus as thier personal savior will do all that Jesus will do because Jesus is in those who have accepted Him.
If somebody gave me a million dollars as a gift , I will have no problem doing all I can for them forever,after recieving my present, or gift,or free million dollar with no work or string attached. I would what to help just to please the person who gave me the money as a gift, but I am a millionaire before I did any works or obeying anything they said,or command me to do.

So is this the same principle by entering Jesus Kingdom and the free gift of salvation.

I hope this help you to understand the good news of God faith praise God.


be blessed