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Interaction with perfect foreknowledge?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by docrob57
    He does at times intervene to change the course from what would have happened otherwise.
    Is the "otherwise" what He foresees perfectly? Or does He perfectly forsee see the result of His interaction?
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    • #77
      Originally posted by Knight
      Is the "otherwise" what He foresees perfectly? Or does He perfectly forsee see the result of His interaction?
      Both really. I think He can see what happens as a result of his interaction and what would have happened otherwise.
      God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


      A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Knight
        If the "Fore" in foreknowledge means "before" (which of course it does) then your statement is false.

        Anything cannot happen if only one possible future exists which is contained in God's perfect foreknowledge which doesn't change.
        Yes it can....we make our free will choice...God doesnt interrupt...the choice we make is the one God knew we were going to make. I still had free will.

        In no sense is the statement false, it just implies that God is infallible.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by eccl3_6
          Yes it can....we make our free will choice...God doesnt interrupt...the choice we make is the one God knew we were going to make. I still had free will.
          Obviously your definition of the word "free" must mean something other than mine.
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          • #80
            Originally posted by docrob57
            Both really. I think He can see what happens as a result of his interaction and what would have happened otherwise.
            If God "sees" both versions of the future (The result of His interaction and the "otherwise") and BOTH versions of the future are actually possible His vision of the future must be open (open to BOTH possibilities). If this is what you believe - then we are in complete agreement.

            Do you believe . . .
            God's vision of the future must be open to both possibilities?
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            • #81
              Originally posted by Knight
              If God "sees" both versions of the future (The result of His interaction and the "otherwise") and BOTH versions of the future are actually possible His vision of the future must be open (open to BOTH possibilities). If this is what you believe - then we are in complete agreement.

              Do you believe . . .
              God's vision of the future must be open to both possibilities?
              Sure. Of course I think that He knows which possible outcome actually will occur.
              Last edited by docrob57; July 19th, 2005, 01:55 PM.
              God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


              A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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              • #82
                Clete,
                No I didn't miss it, you just said it and then started giving reasons why it didn't happen the way God said it would, as you've just done again...
                You're right, I did.....
                I agree with you completely here but the point is that in regards to whether or not God has exhaustive foreknowledge this is completely irrelivent. In fact, your reasoning here could only make sense if God did not have exhaustive foreknowledge because regardless of why God didn't do as He said (which we both agree was for good and righteous reasons), if He had known in advance what was going to happen then for Him to have said that He would do otherwise "without fail" would have been a lie. The only way to get God off the hook for lying is to concede that He did not KNOW the future exhaustively. Not that it's necessary to assume that the events that unfolded caught Him completely by surprise, He may well have anticipated the possibility but if He KNEW absolutely what would happen then this passage in Joshua is a big problem.
                I didn't say this before, but I'll say it now...I don't even see this passage as a prophecy so I definitely can't see it as an unfulfilled prophecy. I still disagree that God either didn't know the future or was a liar. God said He would do it, it didn't happen, and God could have known it wasn't going to happen. God still said it even though He knew it wasn't going to happen, mainly for the same reason He didn't tell Jonah that the people of Nineveh would repent. If God let us know everything it would take the living out of life.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Knight
                  Obviously your definition of the word "free" must mean something other than mine.
                  Mine's the one in the dictionary....

                  And yours?

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by docrob57
                    Sure. Of course I think that He knows which possible outcome actually will occur.


                    YES or NO . . .

                    If God knows the actual outcome is the other possible outcome an actual possibility?
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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Knight


                      YES or NO . . .

                      If God knows the actual outcome is the other possible outcome an actual possibility?
                      Don't confuse the poor guy.

                      BTW, been busy so I couldn't call.
                      The state — whatever its particular forms — always expresses itself as a collective form of property ownership. All political systems are socialistic, in that they are premised upon the subservience of individual interests to collective authority. Communism, fascism, lesser forms of state socialism, and welfarism, are all premised upon the state’s usurpation of privately-owned property. Whether one chooses to be aligned with the political "Left," "Right," or "Middle," comes down to nothing more than a preference for a particular franchise of state socialism.

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                      • #86
                        Hi everyone,

                        Originally posted by Knight
                        If God knows the actual outcome is the other possible outcome an actual possibility?
                        No, but it can still be a free choice! As in God knowing how he would choose, in any completely defined situation.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "Even now we seem to have dim glimpses into regions from which we receive no word to bring away." (George MacDonald)

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Knight


                          YES or NO . . .

                          If God knows the actual outcome is the other possible outcome an actual possibility?
                          Yes, it is what would have happened if God hadn't intervened. I find it interesting that you never answered my question about foreknowledge of the need for a Savior. I don't blame you, admit that and admit that God did not cause sin, and the whole thing comes tumbling down.
                          God . . .even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV


                          A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. . . . John Calvin

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by docrob57
                            No, but again, that doesn't solve the problem. Beleive it or not, I am open to this possibility, but I still haven't seen a convincing argument. The statement "God knows X is going to happen" is not the same as "God causes X to happen."

                            For example. Clearly God knew from the beginning that we would need a Savior. Did God cause us to turn from Him so that we would need that Savior? I don't think so, do you?

                            God knew and formulated a possible/potential plan that was implemented after the actual Fall. The plan of redemption only became actual centuries later.

                            The other aspect of Open Theism is that some of the future is settled and some is unsettled. Once the Fall happened, we have prophecies relating to the coming of the Messiah, the Lamb of God. These prophecies were centuries before He actually came. The incarnation was fully under God's control and thus knowable. We cannot extrapolate from this example that He foreknows every moral and mundane choice in the universe. Unless He predestines/decrees/controls who will win next year's Superbowl, it is not an object of certain knowledge from the beginning. Likewise, He does not know who goes to heaven or hell from eternity past. The Calvinistic TULIP (election/non-election) violates His revelation of impartial love and holiness. It also negates libertarian free will. You have given an example of one aspect that God has purposed to settle by His ability. You must not ignore the other examples that show God changing His mind or being uncertain about things. The classic view makes these figurative to maintain a preconceived theology. This is not defensible.
                            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by docrob57
                              Sure. Of course I think that He knows which possible outcome actually will occur.
                              How? Why? The future is not there to see/know and only becomes actual/fixed AFTER the contingent choice, not BEFORE.
                              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by docrob57
                                Yes, it is what would have happened if God hadn't intervened. I find it interesting that you never answered my question about foreknowledge of the need for a Savior. I don't blame you, admit that and admit that God did not cause sin, and the whole thing comes tumbling down.
                                docrob what question?

                                If I missed a question certainly isn't wasn't intentional.

                                I like you, you seem like a really cool guy and I am enjoying this discussion I hope you are as well. Please point me to your question and I would love to answer it for you.
                                Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                                TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

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