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ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

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  • #31
    Well, Lucky has given a great response. I see no need to add to it.
    sigpic

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    • #32
      Originally posted by ChristisKing
      Does God make you sin?
      According to Calvinism, yes!
      http://prolifeprofiles.com/

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by ChristisKing
        God hasn't asked you to any such thing, who do you think you are, an Apostle? How ridiculous!
        But God did predestine Knight to post what he posted, correct?
        http://prolifeprofiles.com/

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        • #34
          Who & what should I pray for tonight before I lay down for bed?




          Aahh, nevermind, it's useless, since the future is exhaustively settled I'd just be wasting my time, darn, I'm sorry guys, I forgot.
          He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
          For all His ways are justice,
          A God of truth and without injustice;
          Righteous and upright is He. - Deu 32:4

          'It is foolish to admire the design and ignore the designer'

          Comment


          • #35
            If God, at some point, exhaustively predestined everything, then did God, at that point, surrender His own free will?

            The answer pretty much has to be yes, but I just want Calvinists to admit and realize all that their theology involves.
            Reason is always a kind of brute force; those who appeal to the head rather than the heart, however pallid and polite, are necessarily men of violence. We speak of 'touching' a man's heart, but we can do nothing to his head but hit it. -G.K. Chesterton

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by ChristisKing
              "Open theists proclaim that God cannot know future contingent events. That is the fancy way of referring to events in the future, which result from human beings making free choices. Now that claim sounds innocent enough, but let me show you some of the consequences of that. Think back to the moment when Jesus Christ was dying on the cross. Incidentally, let me tell you what John Sanders, one open theist, says about the cross. He says that God the Father had no knowledge that His Son would end up being crucified. And at that particular moment, when God the Father looks down from heaven and sees His Son hanging on the cross, John Sanders put it in language somewhat like this, "Oops, I guess we have to switch to plan B." Because, you see, to these open theists, God is completely surprised by any large number of events that happened in the world. But this poor, impotent deity, who is described by the open theists, this finite God of open theism, had no way of knowing at the time that Jesus was dying if even one human being would accept His Son as Savior. This poor, impotent deity faced the possibility that the suffering of His Son on the cross would bring about the salvation of no one. Another open theist, who happens to be a friend of mine, Bill Hasker, teaches at a college in Indiana, says that the very fact that there is a church of God is a matter of God's dumb blind luck because God had no way of controlling whatever outcome might follow the crucifixion of Jesus on the cross. Now I believe all of these consequences are absurd."--Ron Nash

              Trustees of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the flagship school of the 16 million-member Southern Baptist Convention, passed a resolution saying, "Open theism's denial of God's exhaustive definitive foreknowledge constitutes an egregious biblical and theological departure from orthodoxy and poses a serious threat to evangelical integrity."

              The Evangelical Theological Society approved a resolution rejecting open theism and supporting the position that "God has complete, accurate and infallible knowledge of all events past, present and future, including all future decisions and actions of free moral agents."

              I agree with Ron Nash, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and the Evangelical Theological Society. What do you think?
              This is a typical straw man caricature of Open Theism. In reality, God knows some of the future as settled, but knows other aspects of the future as unsettled, open, or possibilities vs certainties. God is also omnicompetent in all views. To say He is impotent shows a gross misunderstanding of the Open View. This view is more about the openness of God's creation rather than about God. It is logically absurd to say an omniscient being can know future free will contingencies exhaustively. The open view affirms that God is omniscient, but that He correctly knows reality as it is: certainites/actualities, possibilities, necessities, etc. This view does not limit God, but affirms revelation and reality as it truly is without the trapping of Augustinian/Greek philosophy.
              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Shimei
                If God wanted to, could He create a free will being?
                He created free moral agents. This is why things are a mess (Lucifer=Satan; Adam fell; Hitler slaughters, etc.).
                Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by ChristisKing
                  I picked up on that just from the responses to my limited posts in here. That is why I posted this, what a horrible theology! I can't imagine how you could ever believe that God "doesn't know" something. What kinda god is this?

                  But if it helps your arminian theology work better then I guess it's tempting to run with it. I mean anything is better than God choosing, electing and predestinating us, right?
                  Election is corporate, not individual. God does predestine some things, but this does not mean He predestines all things. He is not responsible for heinous evil and people going to hell (we are accountable). Even Calvin called double predestination a 'horrible' doctrine, but he believed it anyway (contrary to God's explicit revelation, character, and ways). God knows all that is knowable. He knows reality as it is. He correctly distinguishes past, present, future, possibilities/contingencies, certainties/actualities.

                  Pinnock: "Aspects of the future, being unsettled, are not yet wholly known even to God. It does not mean God is ignorant of something He ought to know, but that many things in the future are only possible and not yet actual. Therefore, He knows them correctly as possible and not actual".

                  This is not a limitation on God's omniscience, but a correct understanding of it.

                  'As omnipotence is limited by the possible, so omniscience is limited by the knowable....we do not limit omnipotence by denying its power to do impossible or self-contradictory things (like creating a rock too heavy to lift). Neither do we limit omniscience by denying its power to foreknow unknowable things (future free will contingencies)'.

                  God is not an aloof, unchanging monarch. He is providential, dynamic, relational, responsive, transcendent, and immanent.
                  Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                  They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                  I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                  Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                  "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                  The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Shimei
                    God knows everything that is knowable.

                    BTW, Open theism is not arminianism.
                    Most feel open theism is a subtype of Arminianism or free will theism as opposed to deterministic Calvinism. It has similarities, but many other differences. I like to call it an alternative, biblical view (mediate between Arm. and Cal.).
                    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ChristisKing
                      God knows everything.
                      Does God know for sure who will win the 2010 Superbowl trillions of years ago? If He did, then He must control all the players and negate their freedom and self-determination. The future is not there yet to know as a certainty (God would only know aspects of the future as a certainty if He purposed to bring them to pass by His power...e.g. the First and Second Coming of Christ, future judgments, the end of Satan, etc.).
                      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Knight
                        Does God have control of His knowledge? Or does God's knowledge control Him?

                        In other words....
                        If God decided He didn't want to know something could He choose to NOT know it? Or is God a slave to His own knowledge?
                        The way God decided to not know aspects of the future as a certainty was to create other free moral agents.

                        What are some other examples of God chosing to not know something. Forgiveness is not literal forgetting. It is chosing to not bring it up again. If we can bring to our minds our sins, God cannot chose to not know an object of knowledge in the universe (compromises our definition of omniscience= knows all that is knowable; Enyart's definition is not classic Open Theism).
                        Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                        They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                        I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                        Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                        "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                        The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ChristisKing
                          No, He didn't just know, He presdestined it!

                          He created me, then elected me, then predestined me, then called me, then saved me, and now He's going to resurrect me. All I did was sin.

                          ROM 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
                          ROM 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.



                          Yes all "types" of men"

                          TIT 2:2 Older men
                          TIT 2:3 Older women
                          TIT 2:4 ...young women
                          TIT 2:6 ....young men
                          TIT 2:9 ....bondslaves ... masters

                          In summary, " the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men" TIT 2:11



                          Yes, but they can't. They are dead in their sins and held as satan's slaves, only God can grant them repentance, and as many as are ordained to eternal life will believe.

                          2TI 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

                          2TI 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

                          ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
                          Classic proof texts that have a better, alternate understanding.
                          Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                          They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                          I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                          Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                          "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                          The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Does anyone happen to know the philosophical name for open view theism? For instance, Determanism and Fatalism are basically the same as Closed View.
                            says:

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ChristisKing
                              Of course He predestined I would be a sinner, but I did the sinning. God predestined Christ would be killed, but the Romans and Jews killed Him. God predestined Judas would betray Christ, but Judas did the betraying.

                              ACT 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

                              JOH 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
                              Theological debate: Compatibilism vs incompatibilism...that is the question (is free will compatible with decrees/predestination? No. Incompatibilism has my vote).
                              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by lighthouse
                                Arminian? Open Theism is diametrically opposed to Arminianism. Arminianists beleive that God didn't predestine, but that He knows everything that will ever happen. Open Theists beleive that God can not know that which does not exist.
                                1. Did God from all eternity decree whatever will come to pass?

                                Yes= Calvinism (no contingencies/uncertainties).

                                No= Arminianism
                                Open Theism (contingencies)

                                2. Is everything certain in God's mind from all eternity?

                                Yes= Calvinism= decree
                                Arminian= simple foreknowledge (whatever that means?)= certainties

                                No= Open Theism (alternative)= uncertainties.

                                God is resourceful, creative, providential, omnicompetent vs meticulously controlling.

                                Open Theism is not diametrically opposed to Arminianism in every sense. They both believe in contingencies and free will. However, simple/exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is an absurdity or logical contradiction, making Arminianism fall short of a cogent view of God's omniscience.

                                Rep points for effort?
                                Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                                They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                                I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                                Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                                "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                                The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                                Comment

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