Creation vs. Evolution

[MichaelCadry]

I agree!
I wouldn't insist that passage be taken literally. *Christians are often guilty of forcing literal interpretations on something which is poetic or allegorical. Others insist that historical passages might be poetic. Most scripture is pretty straight forward though. For example, we can read the gospels as true history, yet understand the parables may not be literal events.*

Anyways.... re that passage in Isaiah, it may be poetic language....it may be the answer to distant starlight. But, both you and I speculate / not science as to how things began.*

I was going to give an example of secular speculation under the guise of science. I Google 'big Bang first instant'. I come up with this gem ..... "If imagining the big bang makes your head ache, what happened an instant later might make it explode. Cosmologists think the just-born universe—a hot, dense soup of matter and energy—went through a burst of expansion faster than the speed of light. Like a magical balloon, the cosmos doubled its size 60 times in a span of 10 to the -32*seconds. This phase, known as inflation, ended well before the universe was even a second old."
http://news.sciencemag.org/physics/...es-first-split-second-boosts-inflation-theory

That must make even you smile at how non scientific they are in attempting to explain problems such as the light horizon at 92 billion years.*

Dear 6days,

Really Good Post!! Thanks for the link! It is all so complex, but I understand a good part of it. Well, I do know that you feel that the Universe was created in the matter of seconds and so do I. You do believe that, don't you? And the light horizon at 92 billion years. That's very long. Interesting!!

Michael

:wazzup: :shocked:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Michael,
As I understand it, the universe would be about 26 billion light years across if it was not expanding. However, it is.

Picture a raisin in a raisin cake being cooked. It is, because of the expansion of the cake being cooked, moving away from all the other raisins. The farther away another raisin is from our particular raisin, the faster it is moving away from it. So the speed of very distant galaxies would be effectively greater than the speed of light, seen from our galaxy. But:

Unfortunately, it is no longer true that we shall eventually see that light from those super clusters. The problem is that we now know that due to dark energy, the expansion of the universe is actually increasing at an accelerated rate (actually it has been accelerating for at least 3 billion years). Because of the accelerated expansion, those superclusters, which are now 46.5 billion light years from us, will be receding from us at a rate that is greater than the speed of light by the time we wait another 32.7 billion more years.

So, the diameter of 93 billion light years is, at most, a theoretical estimate of the current distance of all the matter that we can NOW see, even if the light we see is 13.8 billion years old (as in the case for the CMB images).

At 379,000 years after the big bang, there was a bump (overdensity) in the region of space where our super-cluster (the Virgo cluster), and our galaxy (the Milky Way) would eventually develop. You might wonder how far away the bumps were then that would eventually show up on the CMB image show above? Well we can calculate that! The CMB is at a redshift of z=1100. There is a scale factor for the universe that is a function of time, a(t). The redshift is related to the scale factor by
a(tNOW)a(tCMB)=z+1.

Which means that the diameter of those bumps that would become our CMB image would be 96 billion light years/1101 which is 87 million light years in diameter.
http://www.quora.com/How-can-it-be-...rs-across-and-yet-only-13-8-billion-years-old

Makes my head hurt to think about it. I'm just an old biologist.

With Respect and Love,
Barbarian

Dear The Barbarian,

Yes, it does make my head hurt too!! Intriguing, eh? I understand about 1/2 of what you said, maybe more. Thanks so much for explaining things. A lot of ly, eh? Do you know how incredibly far that is? Such things shouldn't be that way. I do believe that the Universe is not more than 6,000 years old. But I can believe that God made it that way in one day. It's been 6,000 years of growing for the Universe. That's a good amount of time. Maybe 6,000 light years is quite large too!! I'm the YEC, remember? Thanks so much for your intricate explanation, The Barbarian!

May God Bless You Always,

Michael

:shocked: :think:

 

[MichaelCadry]

It's actually astrophysics which is the difficult part to get your head around imo, I won't pretend to have any skills there, never mind the theories about "dark matter".
Astronomy otoh is more usually about what we can see now, and how everything appears to be as humans throughout history have witnessed it, since in reality it's all in motion.
You really don't have to understand too much of it.
If any of it causes you problems then never mind, there are plenty of unexplained things that the experts don't have a handle on.

Dear alwight,

Yes, you are right! It is intriguing to say the least!! And I have an astrophysics question also soon, but I haven't asked it yet here on TOL. It's, in part, about black holes and dark matter. It's a long question, so I have to think about it. I love Astronomy very much and the stars and sun, and moon, etc. It is beautiful indeed!! Just awesome!!

Much Love And Cheerio!!

Michael

:shocked: :think:

 

[MichaelCadry]

I'm happy to accept that unknowns exist and that some may never be known, we can't expect that everything is knowable or explainable by humans, we just need to keep trying to find out and not pretend that we have answers when we don't.

Dear alwight,

Are you talking about God being an unknown? I'm glad you're trying. Wonderful for you, Al!! I believe because I do have the answers because of the phenomena that I've had happen to me. If it all happened to you, you would believe too, definitely!! It's been an awesome lifetime. I can't believe this is happening to me!! It defies all odds!!

Much Love For You, From God And Myself, Alwight!!

Michael

:think: :shocked:

 

[DavisBJ]

I agree!
I wouldn't insist that passage be taken literally. Christians are often guilty of forcing literal interpretations on something which is poetic or allegorical. Others insist that historical passages might be poetic. Most scripture is pretty straight forward though. For example, we can read the gospels as true history, yet understand the parables may not be literal events.

Anyways.... re that passage in Isaiah, it may be poetic language....it may be the answer to distant starlight. But, both you and I speculate / not science as to how things began.

I am not so sure you didn’t post the link to Isaiah intending to show the Bible spoke of the expansion of the universe before science did. I have seen that argument propounded rather often here at TOL.

If a Christian sincerely wants to say that passage in Isaiah is prescient of what science would eventually come up with, then they are admitting that it was little more than scriptural gobbledygook to generations of scientifically illiterate believers before the last century, and they are saying whatever natural explanations science comes up with for the expansion must be way God did it (and since “natural”, then not “supernatural”).

If I were a YEC, I would sneak out late at night with a shovel and bury that “Isaiah 45:12 means expansion of the universe” argument really deep, hoping it never sees the light of day again.

 

[DavisBJ]

… I was going to give an example of secular speculation under the guise of science. I Google 'big Bang first instant'. I come up with this gem ..... "If imagining the big bang makes your head ache, what happened an instant later might make it explode. Cosmologists think the just-born universe—a hot, dense soup of matter and energy—went through a burst of expansion faster than the speed of light. Like a magical balloon, the cosmos doubled its size 60 times in a span of 10 to the -32 seconds. This phase, known as inflation, ended well before the universe was even a second old."
http://news.sciencemag.org/physics/...es-first-split-second-boosts-inflation-theory

That must make even you smile at how non scientific they are in attempting to explain problems such as the light horizon at 92 billion years.

I fail to see what the connection is between the 92 billion ly horizon and Guth’s inflation model. I am not an expert on it, but I thought Guth was addressing a granularity and flatness problem, not an issue with how large the universe has become.

 

[MichaelCadry]

I am not so sure you didn’t post the link to Isaiah intending to show the Bible spoke of the expansion of the universe before science did. I have seen that argument propounded rather often here at TOL.

If a Christian sincerely wants to say that passage in Isaiah is prescient of what science would eventually come up with, then they are admitting that it was little more than scriptural gobbledygook to generations of scientifically illiterate believers before the last century, and they are saying whatever natural explanations science comes up with for the expansion must be way God did it (and since “natural”, then not “supernatural”).

If I were a YEC, I would sneak out late at night with a shovel and bury that “Isaiah 45:12 means expansion of the universe” argument really deep, hoping it never sees the light of day again.

Dear DavisBJ,

I guess you don't like that Scripture, eh? God stretched out the heaven. It's okay. You don't believe the Bible, so it's fine. Heheheeee! It is funny, Davis!

Good Blessings,

Michael

:shocked: :think: :luigi:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear The Barbarian,

What do you think about the following, if you have an opinion on it:

(Alain Riazuelo of the French National Research Agency, via Wikipedia)
There's a common notion that at the edge of every black hole lies a back door to the universe — an exit from reality into a new realm where fundamental laws of nature, like time, no longer behave the way that we understand them.

What happens once you cross this threshold is a long-standing mystery that the world's leading scientists have been pondering for decades with little headway.

Now, a recent paper presented at a conference in Paris this week has proposed a solution by looking at black holes in a completely different way.

Taking a novel approach to this age-old problem, the theory proposes that there is no back door to the universe in the first place. Instead, black holes are impenetrable bodies, called fuzzballs.

Fuzzballs (yes, fuzzballs) are the new black holes
Samir Mathur, a professor of physics at The Ohio State University and sole author of the paper, says as you approach the fuzzball, your body will be destroyed but, oddly enough, you will not die. Rather, you'll be transformed into a copy of yourself, in the form of a hologram, that is forever embedded onto the surface of the fuzzball.

Does this make any sense to you? Is it highly probable or not? What do you think, Alwight and DavisBJ?? Black holes used to be a mystery to me and very scary! They eat stars.

Much Love, In Jesus Christ,

Michael

 

[DavisBJ]

Dear DavisBJ,

I guess you don't like that Scripture, eh? God stretched out the heaven. It's okay. You don't believe the Bible, so it's fine. Heheheeee! It is funny, Davis!

Good Blessings,

Michael

:shocked: :think: :luigi:

My interest is far less in the scripture itself than in why 6days presented it with no qualifications as though it was a Biblical reference to the expansion of the universe. He backed away from that only after it was pointed out that the passage would have been meaningless throughout most of Christian history.

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

Are you talking about God being an unknown? I'm glad you're trying. Wonderful for you, Al!! I believe because I do have the answers because of the phenomena that I've had happen to me. If it all happened to you, you would believe too, definitely!! It's been an awesome lifetime. I can't believe this is happening to me!! It defies all odds!!

Much Love For You, From God And Myself, Alwight!!

Michael

:think: :shocked:

I don't rule out a god Michael but I don't see any particular reason to presume that any such entity does in fact exist. Unknowns don't require that something should first be presumed as true regardless, they can remain unknown pending better evidence as far as I'm concerned.

Thinking that you have answers is fine, but if you can't demonstrate them with evidence to others then there is no obligation for others to also believe as you do.

 

[MichaelCadry]

My interest is far less in the scripture itself than in why 6days presented it with no qualifications as though it was a Biblical reference to the expansion of the universe. He backed away from that only after it was pointed out that the passage would have been meaningless throughout most of Christian history.

Dear DavisBJ,

Well, I can understand it well in the connotation it meant for those prior to us, just as now it pertains to each of us, now that we are more advanced. It is timeless, as far as I'm concerned.

Michael

:cloud9: :angel: :angel: :cheers:

 

[MichaelCadry]

I don't rule out a god Michael but I don't see any particular reason to presume that any such entity does in fact exist. Unknowns don't require that something should first be presumed as true regardless, they can remain unknown pending better evidence as far as I'm concerned.

Thinking that you have answers is fine, but if you can't demonstrate them with evidence to others then there is no obligation for others to also believe as you do.

Dear alwight,

Yes, others can only go on my testimony. I tell others what I've seen and heard. That is the only proof I have, except for my Proof Pages. They hold a proof of my experiences. I would have to mail them to you with a copy of my autographed book. You would have to provide me a home address in a PM so I could send it all to you. In the Proof Pages, I have a sign from God of seven inches of snow being sent onto a NYC newspaper bldg. on a certain day, so that he would know that God was with me. I have the letter written on ABC-TV stationery telling him of the sign that God would send him, which God told me Himself that He would do, and the New York Post's article of the snow falling. I also have other pertinent proof. So I guess I am not proof-less after all. ABC-TV is among the three greatest TV stations in the U.S. I worked there at the time. I was allowed to use their letterhead by my boss.

God's Blessings And Cheerio, Mate,

Michael

:guitar: :angel: :cloud9: :cloud9: :angel:

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Barbarian,

Will you see Post #9929, Pg. 662? I'm interested in what you think and how you feel about it. You are the specialist! They evidently think black holes are fuzzballs or something. Will you read it and give us your feedback? I have more info on black holes if it helps, but it is not an extension of Post #9929.

God Be With You Always,

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear All Of My Friends,

You're welcome to post what you think of Post #9929. Why would black holes appear as fuzzy balls? That's quite a chuckle!!

Much Love To All Of You!!

Michael

 

[alwight]

Dear The Barbarian,

What do you think about the following, if you have an opinion on it:

(Alain Riazuelo of the French National Research Agency, via Wikipedia)
There's a common notion that at the edge of every black hole lies a back door to the universe — an exit from reality into a new realm where fundamental laws of nature, like time, no longer behave the way that we understand them.

What happens once you cross this threshold is a long-standing mystery that the world's leading scientists have been pondering for decades with little headway.

Now, a recent paper presented at a conference in Paris this week has proposed a solution by looking at black holes in a completely different way.

Taking a novel approach to this age-old problem, the theory proposes that there is no back door to the universe in the first place. Instead, black holes are impenetrable bodies, called fuzzballs.

Fuzzballs (yes, fuzzballs) are the new black holes
Samir Mathur, a professor of physics at The Ohio State University and sole author of the paper, says as you approach the fuzzball, your body will be destroyed but, oddly enough, you will not die. Rather, you'll be transformed into a copy of yourself, in the form of a hologram, that is forever embedded onto the surface of the fuzzball.

Does this make any sense to you? Is it highly probable or not? What do you think, Alwight and DavisBJ?? Black holes used to be a mystery to me and very scary! They eat stars.

Much Love, In Jesus Christ,

Michael

Fanciful notions have always surrounded black holes Michael. Portals to other places, times, universes? Imaginations flourish where there is mystery and unknowns.
As I understand it black holes are thought to contain a small infinitely dense chunk of matter at the core that creates a gravity well so strong that even light cannot escape. At the edge of where light cannot escape is an "event horizon" where time slows down and events and images would appear to stand still. But of course my understanding may be fuzzy.:help:

 

[MichaelCadry]

This is a copy of another post I wrote on another thread:

Dear All,

I have this feeling that there are more Christians who believe in Christ, and are saved, than the Jews. But now, the other ten tribes who are scattered among the people in all cities and nations around the world also we can count as Israelis who believe in Christ. Perhaps this is because of Paul, in part. I believe the ten tribes of Israel are in all countries, including the U.S. definitely. We have so many people here from different nations. We do not realize how much Israeli blood is in us, because the Israelis ten tribes had sex with other persons in each country and city they were sent to. I mean, they get horny too and intermingle with each other from different ethnic backgrounds. An angel told me that my mother had blood in her from all twelve tribes of Israel. She also has Cherokee in her. So she is part Indian, but not much. She has English (England), Irish and Scottish in her also. I'm quite a mutt!! Plus Lebanese from my father's side of the family. He didn't mind marrying her. She was pretty and a redhead, so she was definitely unique. And so consecrated to the Lord God. Such a wonderful mom!! The angel also said she was the woman in Rev. 12:1KJV. If you can't believe me, I can't help it. You can ask the Lord when you're in His presence. God will bear witness to these things and to myself. I don't need to bear witness of myself. I've told you what I can.

Praise God!!

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Fanciful notions have always surrounded black holes Michael. Portals to other places, times, universes? Imaginations flourish where there is mystery and unknowns.
As I understand it black holes are thought to contain a small infinitely dense chunk of matter at the core that creates a gravity well so strong that even light cannot escape. At the edge of where light cannot escape is an "event horizon" where time slows down and events and images would appear to stand still. But of course my understanding may be fuzzy.:help:

Dear alwight,

I just laughed so hard when I read Fuzzy Balls. I understand what you're saying. Can you believe it? The gravity is so dense that it sucks even light into it. There is some infinitely dense chunk of matter that is causing the strong gravity. WOW!! I worry about these black holes because I suppose one could just suck up a planet or another star. Me no like!! Very good Astrophysics alwight!! Thank you so much for helping me. How did you find out about this intricate subject and knowledge of it? I guess you understand black holes. That will come in handy sometime. Well, I can't THANK YOU enough Alwight for your explanation to a layman like me. Okay, I'm going to eat a Burrito!! Back soon!!

Much Love From God And Me!!

Michael


:guitar: :cloud9: :cloud9: :thumb: :angel:

 

[DavisBJ]

Dear DavisBJ,

Well, I can understand it well in the connotation it meant for those prior to us, just as now it pertains to each of us, now that we are more advanced. It is timeless, as far as I'm concerned.

Michael

:cloud9: :angel: :angel: :cheers:

Michael,

First off, somehow in your composing or editing the original of the post I quote above, you managed to delete a colon that should have been after the “:cloud9”, and another colon that should have been just before the “angel:”. I fixed them in this reply to you so they show as emoticons. You might want to edit your original post to get those emoticons to show properly.

But dealing with God spreading out the heavens, I will take you up on your claim that you “understand it well in the connotation it meant for those prior to us”. Let’s go back 1500 years, to some dim and damp crude room in central Europe where a small group of believers have gathered to hear the Bible read to them. The scribe opens the scroll to Isaiah and reads (in whatever European dialect was in use): “I stretched out the heavens …”

Bard, a local young farmer with no concept of cosmology beyond seeing the pinpoints of light in the sky at night, thinks about this and then asks the priest/scribe what that means. Tell us what you would tell to Bard if you were the reader. Remember, what you say has to be truthful, and the meaning important enough to the common man that it was included within the Bible text.

A secondary comment – you say, speaking of God spreading out the heavens, “now it pertains to each of us, now that we are more advanced”. In fact, even in relatively advanced countries such as Europe and the US, most people have at best only a vague understanding of what expansion of the universe really is. You yourself had to ask for clarification. Even in the present day most of us are NOT “more advanced” enough to know if that Biblical passage has any relevance to scientific cosmology.

Zeus and Poseidon both send their love.

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

I just laughed so hard when I read Fuzzy Balls. I understand what you're saying. Can you believe it? The gravity is so dense that it sucks even light into it. There is some infinitely dense chunk of matter that is causing the strong gravity. WOW!! I worry about these black holes because I suppose one could just suck up a planet or another star. Me no like!! Very good Astrophysics alwight!! Thank you so much for helping me. How did you find out about this intricate subject and knowledge of it? I guess you understand black holes. That will come in handy sometime. Well, I can't THANK YOU enough Alwight for your explanation to a layman like me. Okay, I'm going to eat a Burrito!! Back soon!!

Much Love From God And Me!!

Michael


:guitar: :cloud9: :cloud9: :thumb: :angel:

No I don't understand that much Micheal, I just like documentaries about the universe.opcorn:

 

[The Barbarian]

Does this make any sense to you? Is it highly probable or not? What do you think, Alwight and DavisBJ?? Black holes used to be a mystery to me and very scary! They eat stars.

I have no idea what sort of data he's basing this on. Interesting, though. I'll look it up. I don't think that anything could approach the event horizon of a black hole without being ripped apart by the acceleration due to gravity.