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ARGH!!! Open Theism makes me furious!!!

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  • #16
    How do you know you are elected then??
    Grace is getting what you don't deserve, Mercy is not getting what you do deserve.

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    • #17
      Re: Re: ARGH!!! Open Theism makes me furious!!!

      Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

      Swordsman! Welcome back! I haven't seen anything from you in a while.
      Howdy Clete!

      First of all, are you suggesting that people who do not beleive in Calvinism do not believe the gospel and are therefore not "Christian"?
      No, I am not suggesting that. I didn't go into further detail about my friend. He comes from a unitarian background and is currently being misled by the writings of Boyd and Sanders.

      Secondly, if Calvinism is right and your "friend" has no free will, then wouldn't he have "come up with this idea" because God predestined that he would? Wouldn't you have to say, in order to be consistant, that your friend had been predestined to believe in free will?

      Resting in Him,
      Clete
      I would have to agree with you on this.

      To some people God doesn't grant the truth and blinds them so they may believe in false doctrine. In John 12, Christ tells why the people did not believe and he quotes from Isaiah, 39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by kidd94

        How do you know you are elected then??
        I believe that I was dead to my sins and unable to come to Christ on my own. (Ephesians 2, Romans 8) I believe that God provided a way of salvation from my sins through the blood of His only Son Jesus Christ. And I believe I have been united to Christ by faith, a faith I did not develop, but received as a gift of God's saving grace. I believe my sins are paid for and that righteousness has been imputed upon me as though I had never sinned (Galatians 2).

        And that is what unconditional election is all about. He chose me. He plucked me out of the fire. A damnation I fully deserve. But God saved me. And I owe every facet of my life to Him.

        That one word - grace. If only modern-day believers really understood what it really means.....

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        • #19
          Originally posted by kidd94

          When you accepted this gift, what did you do then?
          Faith is trusting in the work of Christ for my salvation. I do not ever remember saying to myself; "OK, now I am deciding to believe." I was simply listening to preaching and I was overwhelmed by the the love God had shown me in Christ and I found I was trusting in that for my salvation and had a new desire to obey him. I new very little theologically, but I had a new trust and love for God. I think if we are all honest with ourselves, we will admit that we never actually "decided" we would have faith. This also squares with what the Scriptures say about us being dead in sin, and God making us alive (Eph), comparing our conversion to raising us from the dead. Or in John where it says that those who received him were born not of the will of man, nor of the flesh but of God (Jhn).
          For I am not ashamed of the Gospel; it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith...(Rom 1:16)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Swordsman

            I believe that I was dead to my sins and unable to come to Christ on my own. (Ephesians 2, Romans 8) I believe that God provided a way of salvation from my sins through the blood of His only Son Jesus Christ. And I believe I have been united to Christ by faith, a faith I did not develop, but received as a gift of God's saving grace. I believe my sins are paid for and that righteousness has been imputed upon me as though I had never sinned (Galatians 2).

            And that is what unconditional election is all about. He chose me. He plucked me out of the fire. A damnation I fully deserve. But God saved me. And I owe every facet of my life to Him.

            That one word - grace. If only modern-day believers really understood what it really means.....
            Ok.

            So your "pre-belief" state was what? A sinner who knew nothing of God. A sinner that did not know he was a sinner?

            You had to have had some type of "belief" system before you "Believed", right?

            So how did you know that you went from a "sin" state of belief to a "saved/elected" state of belief
            Grace is getting what you don't deserve, Mercy is not getting what you do deserve.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by kidd94

              Ok.

              So your "pre-belief" state was what? A sinner who knew nothing of God. A sinner that did not know he was a sinner?
              Correct.

              You had to have had some type of "belief" system before you "Believed", right?
              Nope. Believe in what? The things of this world? OK. You could say I was once lost shaped by worldly things. But now I'm found. Was blind, but now I see.

              So how did you know that you went from a "sin" state of belief to a "saved/elected" state of belief
              The invasion of the Holy Spirit upon my life making me realize I was a sinner and that I offending the Almighty God. I was moved to confess my sins, and was told that when I did, He would forgive me and make me righteous like His Son.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Swordsman

                Well, it was never man's decision to be damned. It is man's nature to love darkness and hate light. He didn't wake up one day and say "I think I wanna go to hell."

                The doctrine of Total Depravity is vital to understand if a believer wants to grow to know the power and sovereignty of the Almighty God. And since man is depraved, he is unable to accept or understand God.

                But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1 Corinthians 2:14

                ...both Jews and Greeks are all under sin as it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one'. Romans 3:9-12

                So I think that explains very well who is responsible for our salvation. And you can only deduce that it is not man.
                Uh... we already know you think man has no responsibility in his choice to accept Christ.

                That isn't what I asked.

                I would like you to be consistent and admit that man also has NO responsibility in his decision to NOT choose Christ.

                What's a matter? Cat got your tongue?
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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Knight

                  Uh... we already know you think man has no responsibility in his choice to accept Christ.

                  That isn't what I asked.

                  I would like you to be consistent and admit that man also has NO responsibility in his decision to NOT choose Christ.

                  What's a matter? Cat got your tongue?
                  slightly off topic, i just want to say congrats to knight on reaching 10k posts!

                  way to go
                  There is no neutral ground in the universe: every square inch, every split second, is claimed by God and counterclaimed by Satan.

                  C.S. Lewis

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

                    slightly off topic, i just want to say congrats to knight on reaching 10k posts!

                    way to go
                    Look at that purple star glimmer!
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                    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Knight

                      Uh... we already know you think man has no responsibility in his choice to accept Christ.

                      That isn't what I asked.

                      I would like you to be consistent and admit that man also has NO responsibility in his decision to NOT choose Christ.

                      What's a matter? Cat got your tongue?
                      C'mon Knight. You know I will not bow out and fit into your ideology on that.

                      Man has a responsibility if he rejects God. And he will be judged accordingly and cast into the Lake of Fire.

                      The flip side to the coin is that when God chose particular men unto salvation, they weren't responsible for that choosing. God even gave them the faith to believe. They could not resist His sovereign election. That IS the defining point of the word grace, and how misunderstood it is among modern-church goers.

                      There is nothing a man can boast about when it comes to his salvation. Arminians/Open Theists believe you can though. I would argue that they have no idea as to what grace is. But you go to their churches and they preach a "Salvation by Grace." (a twisted form of it)

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Swordsman

                        C'mon Knight. You know I will not bow out and fit into your ideology on that.

                        Man has a responsibility if he rejects God. And he will be judged accordingly and cast into the Lake of Fire.
                        Uhg.... why is it you Calvinists cannot find it within yourself to answer that question consistently?????

                        If man can do nothing of himself (which you assert) it only follows he has no responsibility in his eternal destination for heaven OR hell.

                        So there you have it folks yet one more in the long line of Calvinists that assert man has no ability to make a choice.... but IS responsible for the choice as long as it's the WRONG choice. And therefore God has predestined the majority of souls to hell and to be held eternally responsible for a choice they had no ability to affect.

                        You continue...
                        There is nothing a man can boast about when it comes to his salvation. Arminians/Open Theists believe you can though. I would argue that they have no idea as to what grace is. But you go to their churches and they preach a "Salvation by Grace." (a twisted form of it)
                        LOL... it would be more fun to debate you if you actually understood the arguments.
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                        TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Knight

                          Uhg.... why is it you Calvinists cannot find it within yourself to answer that question consistently?????
                          You mean consistant with your perception of it.

                          If man can do nothing of himself (which you assert) it only follows he has no responsibility in his eternal destination for heaven OR hell.
                          Book, chapter, verse please.

                          So there you have it folks yet one more in the long line of Calvinists that assert man has no ability to make a choice.... but IS responsible for the choice as long as it's the WRONG choice. And therefore God has predestined the majority of souls to hell and to be held eternally responsible for a choice they had no ability to affect.
                          And it would be more fun to debate you if you actually understood what Calvinism teaches about predestination. But I would expect nothing less from one of Enyart's sheep.

                          You continue... LOL... it would be more fun to debate you if you actually understood the arguments.
                          Great comeback! Did that make you feel good to say that to me? Or were you just out of words and felt the need to sling a little mud my way?


                          Let me ask you something now.

                          With everything in your life up until now, are you accountable for? If so, did you choose to be born? Did you choose to be born in the USA? Did you choose your personality/character traits you have? What about your parents? Did you choose how you would be reared?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Swordsman
                            I was moved to confess my sins, and was told that when I did, He would forgive me and make me righteous like His Son.
                            You were moved to confess your sins. At any time prior to this moving, did you decide that you should move to confess your sins?

                            See what I am getting at is that there has to be at one point in time, when you conciously decide that yes, I am a sinner, I am lost, going to hell, that you decide that you want to remove yourself from that condemned state by accepting with your heart and proclaiming with your mouth that Christ is Lord.

                            The words you use SM sound as if everything was done unconciously... As if you went to bed one, and got up the next morning and realized you were saved. The whole experience of getting saved was almost like a dream. As if you had no control over the circumstances at all.
                            Grace is getting what you don't deserve, Mercy is not getting what you do deserve.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Swordsman

                              You mean consistent with your perception of it.
                              I mean consistent as in using logic.

                              You continue...
                              Book, chapter, verse please.
                              Your theology isn't in the Bible! That's the point.

                              You continue...
                              And it would be more fun to debate you if you actually understood what Calvinism teaches about predestination. But I would expect nothing less from one of Enyart's sheep.


                              Have I mentioned Bob? No?? I haven't have I?

                              I expect an apology and a retraction. That was beyond rude.

                              You continue...
                              Let me ask you something now.

                              With everything in your life up until now, are you accountable for?
                              Huh??? That didn't make sense.

                              You continue...
                              If so, did you choose to be born? Did you choose to be born in the USA?
                              No... and no. So what?

                              Did you choose your personality/character traits you have?
                              To some extent yes. So what?

                              What about your parents? Did you choose how you would be reared?
                              To some extent yes. And my parent had a great deal of responsibility in those decisions. So what?
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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Knight

                                Your theology isn't in the Bible! That's the point.
                                Keep reading your Bible, partner.



                                Have I mentioned Bob? No?? I haven't have I?

                                I expect an apology and a retraction. That was beyond rude.
                                You are a follower of his aren't you?

                                OK then. How was that rude?

                                Let's move on.....

                                Huh??? That didn't make sense.
                                I asked you are you accountable for everything in your life up until now and you don't understand the question?

                                Its just a question Knight. I'm not drilling you.

                                No... and no. So what?
                                So you admit you didn't choose to be born nor where you were born. Good. At least you understand that.

                                To some extent yes. So what?
                                I don't agree here. Your personality traits are yours whether you like them or not. They make you who you are. I don't think you woke up one day and decided you wanted to be a belligerent, homosexual bashing open theist. It was obviously in His divine plan.

                                To some extent yes. And my parent had a great deal of responsibility in those decisions. So what?
                                And I disagree here as well. You made no choice at all in your childhood how your parent would rear you.

                                My point is, is that its all by the grace of God we are who we are. Its by the grace of God I wasn't born in Afghanistan. Its by the grace of God I wasn't reared by two lesbian moms. Its by the grace of God my parents taught me Christian values at a young age.

                                So you see, grace goes a long way. It isn't something us puny little humans can decide to get. If you believe that, then you don't understand grace. Simple. Accept it. Embrace it.

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