One Eyed Jack
New member
No.
You're not any kind of Christian.
ARCHIVE: Reason to Believe: Ps. 22
- Thread starter Turbo
- Start date
No.
You're not any kind of Christian.
OMEGA
New member
aikido7 & ONE EYED JACK
aikido7 & ONE EYED JACK
ONE EYED JACK SAID :
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You're not any kind of Christian.
----------------------------------------
ONE EYED JACK - I TEND TO DISAGREE .
I think that aikido7 is SEARCHING for Truth .
Does God Really Exist ?
Does God Really Love Me ?
Can I Trust and Rely on God ?
These are questions that young people ask of their Parents.
And every young person needs to know if they can Rely and
Trust their Parents to always be their to Nurture and Protect them.
--------------
Regarding Psalm 22 , Jesus obviously new his Scriptures
by Memory and must have Read Ps 22 many times and
thought about it when the Pharasees mocked him and
thought about it when he knew that soon he would be
crucified and his body would be pierced and he would be spit on
by the Roman Soldiers and the Sanhedron .
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(Psa 22:1 KJV) To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
(Psa 22:2 KJV) O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
(Psa 22:3 KJV) But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
(Psa 22:4 KJV) Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
(Psa 22:5 KJV) They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
(Psa 22:6 KJV) But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
(Psa 22:7 KJV) All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
(Psa 22:8 KJV) He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
aikido7 & ONE EYED JACK
ONE EYED JACK SAID :
----------------------------------------
You're not any kind of Christian.
----------------------------------------
ONE EYED JACK - I TEND TO DISAGREE .
I think that aikido7 is SEARCHING for Truth .
Does God Really Exist ?
Does God Really Love Me ?
Can I Trust and Rely on God ?
These are questions that young people ask of their Parents.
And every young person needs to know if they can Rely and
Trust their Parents to always be their to Nurture and Protect them.
--------------
Regarding Psalm 22 , Jesus obviously new his Scriptures
by Memory and must have Read Ps 22 many times and
thought about it when the Pharasees mocked him and
thought about it when he knew that soon he would be
crucified and his body would be pierced and he would be spit on
by the Roman Soldiers and the Sanhedron .
----------------------------
(Psa 22:1 KJV) To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
(Psa 22:2 KJV) O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
(Psa 22:3 KJV) But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
(Psa 22:4 KJV) Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
(Psa 22:5 KJV) They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
(Psa 22:6 KJV) But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
(Psa 22:7 KJV) All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
(Psa 22:8 KJV) He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
I have read that many of the rabbis and teachers before the Birth of Yeshua taught that Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 were Messianic scriptures. They taught that the Messiah would be a suffering servant, Messiah ben Joseph?, and that He would quote Psalm 22, My God, My God why has thou forsaken Me.
After the fulfillment of those scriptures by Yeshua, the Jews who believed His report, accepted the prior teaching and believed Yeshua was who he claimed to be. Those who rejected Yeshua expunged these prior teachings or admitted to their existence while denouncing them as false.
Either way it is quite a challenge for an orthodox Jew to set aside and reinterpret the teachings of revered rabbis, and claim that Isaiah 53 always referred to the nation of Israel?
After the fulfillment of those scriptures by Yeshua, the Jews who believed His report, accepted the prior teaching and believed Yeshua was who he claimed to be. Those who rejected Yeshua expunged these prior teachings or admitted to their existence while denouncing them as false.
Either way it is quite a challenge for an orthodox Jew to set aside and reinterpret the teachings of revered rabbis, and claim that Isaiah 53 always referred to the nation of Israel?
knoledgesponge
New member
Those verses were far too general, and because of there being no evidence of the fashion Jesus was crucified you can not use that in an arguement.
To knol:
I don't know if you were referring to my post specifically but the point of my post was that the acknowledged experts on the scriptures at the time just preceding Jesus had been telling their students that the suffering servant , or the Messiah Ben Joseph would be the person described in Isaiah 53. They likewise taught that he would specifically utter the words of Psalm 22. "My God, My God , why hast thou forsaken me?"
After Jesus, the rabbis who did not believe in Him, then began to teach that Isaiah 53 is NOT a messianic prophecy, and that psalm 22 was also not a messianic passage. Interesting to say the least, if, especially as you say, there is no evidence of the fashion in which Jesus was crucified. Then why did they change their teaching.
Also please explain the meaning of your assertion of no evidence etc. Do you not consider the New Testament accounts as evidence?
I don't know if you were referring to my post specifically but the point of my post was that the acknowledged experts on the scriptures at the time just preceding Jesus had been telling their students that the suffering servant , or the Messiah Ben Joseph would be the person described in Isaiah 53. They likewise taught that he would specifically utter the words of Psalm 22. "My God, My God , why hast thou forsaken me?"
After Jesus, the rabbis who did not believe in Him, then began to teach that Isaiah 53 is NOT a messianic prophecy, and that psalm 22 was also not a messianic passage. Interesting to say the least, if, especially as you say, there is no evidence of the fashion in which Jesus was crucified. Then why did they change their teaching.
Also please explain the meaning of your assertion of no evidence etc. Do you not consider the New Testament accounts as evidence?
knoledgesponge
New member
Well if you look at it totally seperated from faith in that the New Testament is the inspired word of God, it is using circular reasoning to use scripture to back up scripture. I guess that is why Jesus is famous for saying "Blessed are they are believe without seeing".
Although most bibical scholars accept these as prophecy, how does anybody really know what Jesus said in his last hours? Crucifiction is death by pain and suffocation so he couldn't of had enough breath to yell something. We are forced to take New Testament writers at their word, and given that the New Testament was written around 50-60 AD this was probably oral tradition...not to mention I think it would have gone into history if people were really coming back from the dead at the same time as the temple veil was rent...
Although most bibical scholars accept these as prophecy, how does anybody really know what Jesus said in his last hours? Crucifiction is death by pain and suffocation so he couldn't of had enough breath to yell something. We are forced to take New Testament writers at their word, and given that the New Testament was written around 50-60 AD this was probably oral tradition...not to mention I think it would have gone into history if people were really coming back from the dead at the same time as the temple veil was rent...
Christ died around 33AD. James, Mark, Matthew, Luke, Acts, and 1 Peter are believed to have been written by AD 65--there is of course debate about the exact dates, James is placed in my reference as AD 45-50, 1 Peter at around AD 64.
So what makes you think this was probably oral tradition? If James, Mark, Matthew, Luke, and Peter were the same age as Christ, it is very likely some of them would have surely have survived to age 65--this is within the age range of a human lifetime. James was probably written within 12-17 years after Christ died. If some of the disciples were in their late teens or twenties, then all of the NT books could have been written within the lifetimes of those who actually witnessed Christ's ministry and the crucifixion.
I can't give you solid proof that the above people wrote the books attributed to them. It has been lost, just as much 2000 year old proof has been lost.
So, how do we know that men wrapped their feet in rags because they didn't have shoes at Valley Forge? We don't have photos, no one is still alive that can testify to that fact, and that's only around 230 years ago. Sure, people wrote about it, but how can we prove that the people who said they wrote about it are the actual people who wrote about it?
We can't know unless we count on written descriptions and accounts left by others. People who did not have the ability to take photos, and who we cannot call back to testify that "Yes, I did write this and it is true." There are books written about the event, but many of these were probably written years later.
Add nearly 1800 years, and the problem of verifying the facts increases. Ye old family legends that "great-great-great-great-grandpaw" served with Washington would be likely be lost. Little by little, more original documents are lost to human carelessness, accident, fire, whatever.
I have researched parts of my family back into the 1100's. How do I know the records are true? They might have lied. I can't ask the guy who recorded it, so it might have just been oral tradition.
Church registers in Pewsey England from the 1300's that show how my family's surname came about could be made up for some ulterior purpose. I can't interview the people who wrote the stuff. The births and marriages might have been recorded years later by people who never knew or met the actual people they wrote about.
If we are to know anything of the past, then we have to take those who recorded it at their words, particularly the further we are from the time of the even.
To knol:
Using circular reasoning, you said that Jesus said, "Blessed are they who believe without seeing." But perhaps He said blessed are they who do not believe anyone or anything. Or perhaps it was really Batholomew who said it, and it was wrongly attributed to Jesus???
You find it hard to believe that a suffocating man could summon up enough energy to yell out 4 or 5 words. Yet you also find it hard to believe that if He did say it, that it could not be accurately recorded if written down by someone who heard it 25 years prior?
Lastly you are not willing to accept the many miraculous events written down and recorded in the new testament, and then ponder why if people rose from their graves when the temple veil was rent in two, why it wasn't recorded in written and oral history so that we could believe it?
Using circular reasoning, you said that Jesus said, "Blessed are they who believe without seeing." But perhaps He said blessed are they who do not believe anyone or anything. Or perhaps it was really Batholomew who said it, and it was wrongly attributed to Jesus???
You find it hard to believe that a suffocating man could summon up enough energy to yell out 4 or 5 words. Yet you also find it hard to believe that if He did say it, that it could not be accurately recorded if written down by someone who heard it 25 years prior?
Lastly you are not willing to accept the many miraculous events written down and recorded in the new testament, and then ponder why if people rose from their graves when the temple veil was rent in two, why it wasn't recorded in written and oral history so that we could believe it?
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Karaite
New member
Nice, but let's take a look at what the Hebrew Bible says, instead of a translation.
Now, your translation has the words 'they pierced'. This is no-where in the Hebrew Bible, the word here is "Ka'ari", which means "Like a Lion".
Most Christian translators that translate this passage say that the reading of "Karu", which they translate as 'piereced'. The problem here is that "Karu" does not mean "they piereced" - it means "they dug".
The word that translates as "pierced", would be Daleth-KOf-Resh-Vav, as in Zechariah 12:10.
Though it is long, I believe the article at the Messiah Truth Project, http://www.messiahtruth.com/psa22.html, lays down a good case for this being about David.
Now, your translation has the words 'they pierced'. This is no-where in the Hebrew Bible, the word here is "Ka'ari", which means "Like a Lion".
Most Christian translators that translate this passage say that the reading of "Karu", which they translate as 'piereced'. The problem here is that "Karu" does not mean "they piereced" - it means "they dug".
The word that translates as "pierced", would be Daleth-KOf-Resh-Vav, as in Zechariah 12:10.
Though it is long, I believe the article at the Messiah Truth Project, http://www.messiahtruth.com/psa22.html, lays down a good case for this being about David.
Karaite
New member
Which Septuagint are you reffering to? (I need to know this to see if it was around before 0 a.d.)
The original Septuagint was translated by some of the Rabbis, but it was only a translation of the Torah.
In the Septuagint you are refferencing, what is the greek word used? This would be helpful so I can see what other words were translated as this greek word, in the Tanakh.
The original Septuagint was translated by some of the Rabbis, but it was only a translation of the Torah.
In the Septuagint you are refferencing, what is the greek word used? This would be helpful so I can see what other words were translated as this greek word, in the Tanakh.
yoshiah_ap, I posted what I said from memory.
I just did a quick google search for [psalm 22 septuagint pierced]. There is an abundance of information out there showing that early (BC) translations of Psalm 22, including the Septuagint, translate Psalm 22:16 saying "pierced" rather than "like a lion."
I just did a quick google search for [psalm 22 septuagint pierced]. There is an abundance of information out there showing that early (BC) translations of Psalm 22, including the Septuagint, translate Psalm 22:16 saying "pierced" rather than "like a lion."
Guy Incognito
New member
This may have been posted, sorry for not reading through all 10 pages of the thread, but verse 14 of Psalm 22 says
"I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax"
or, in the NIV;
"My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me." Ps 22:14b NIV
Now when the soilder pierced Jesus' side "blood and water" came out as it says in John. Blood and water is a clear sign of death by a ruptured heart;
"My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me." Ps 22:14b NIV
"I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax"
or, in the NIV;
"My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me." Ps 22:14b NIV
Now when the soilder pierced Jesus' side "blood and water" came out as it says in John. Blood and water is a clear sign of death by a ruptured heart;
"My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me." Ps 22:14b NIV
God_Is_Truth
New member
i find this link to be quite fascinating in light of this psalm. what is your take on it guys?
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/like-a-lion.html
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/like-a-lion.html
Guy Incognito
New member
My Bible here regarding the word pierced has the footnote
"Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts/ like the lion,"
If that means anyting to anyone!!
"Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts/ like the lion,"
If that means anyting to anyone!!