Why would God need a hell?

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell, when his habit is to gather those who the righteous have cast out? In Ps. 147: 2-3, " The Lord builds up Jerusalem, he gathers the outcast of Israel; he heals the broken heart and binds up their wounds." All the unbelievers that the religious world has cast out, God will gather them together and heal their wounds.

This is good news for unbelievers.

 

[serpentdove]

"Joshua 3:11-13...God obviously thinks in universal terms that include us all..."

"Josh 3:11 Lord of all the earth Yahweh was not merely the God of Israel but sovereign over all nations, peoples, and their gods (see Deut 32:8–9; compare Deut 2:9, 19; 26:19)." Barry, J. D., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Mangum, D., & Whitehead, M. M. (2012). Faithlife Study Bible (Jos 3:11). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

 

[serpentdove]

"You think God is passive with our future? In Isaiah 45:1 this God is subduing all nations before him..."

Ps 103:9, Ro 1:28

"Is 45:1 subdue nations—namely, the Cilicians, Syrians, Babylonians, Lydians, Bactrians, &c.; his empire extended from Egypt and the Mediterranean to the Indian Ocean, and from Ethiopia to the Euxine Sea." Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 1, p. 481). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

 

[Mickiel]

Let me show you something. Something about God. In Ps. 147:11, " The Lord takes pleasure in those who fear him; in those that " Hope in his Mercy!"

I want you to concentrate on the second half of verse; God likes it when humans hope in his Mercy. When we have hope that God will have Mercy on us AND others, that is pleasing to God. This is WHY I know eternal hell punishing belief is NOT pleasing to him, because the doctrine totally cancels out hope in God's Mercy.

Can you see that? I mean is that clear or plain to you? Or is it just hitting a brick wall and nothing getting through?

 

[serpentdove]

"Why would God need a hell, when his habit is to gather those who the righteous have cast out?"

:yawn: Jn 5:27, Mt 8:12

"In Ps. 147: 2-3...All the unbelievers...God will gather them together and heal their wounds."

Mk 16:16

"Ps 147:2 scattered ones of Israel The main way that Israel’s people were scattered was through invasion and exile." Barry, J. D., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Mangum, D., & Whitehead, M. M. (2012). Faithlife Study Bible (Ps 147:2). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

 

[serpentdove]

"Ps. 147:11...I know eternal hell punishing belief is not pleasing to him..."

"Ps 147:10, 11. The advantages afforded, as in war by the strength of the horse or the agility of man, do not incline God to favor any; but those who fear and, of course, trust Him, will obtain His approbation and aid." Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 1, p. 388). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

 

[Mickiel]

Lets stay in Psalms, I like it; 140:7, " O God the Lord, the " Strength of my salvation." There it is right there, God himself is the strength of our salvation; not our will, not our belief, not our acceptance, not anything that we can do; GOD is the strength- or the power behind WHY we are saved!

 

[Mickiel]

Let me tell you again why I dislike so much, this Christian doctrine of eternal conscious punishing; it totally destroys the Mercy of God. I mean just wipes it out. In Ps. 136:16 God's Mercy " Endures forever!" Mercy is compassion shown to an offender, the scriptures teach that God will show his compassion to sinners forever; which is to say his Mercy endures forever. Eternal punishing humans means his mercy has been thrown out the picture completely!

Hello! Are you there? Are you thinking?

Are you paying close attention to what you are swallowing into your spirit?

 

[serpentdove]

"Let's stay in Psalms, I like it; 140:7...God himself is the strength of our salvation."

You're not saved (2 Pe 2:1). :dizzy:

"Ps 140:6–8. David reiterated his opening cry for help, praying that the wicked would not have their way in carrying out their evil plans (cf. v. 2) and being proud of their success. In his prayer the psalmist described the LORD as his strong Deliverer who shields his head in … battle. This military figure stresses divine protection from the wicked." Ross, A. P. (1985). Psalms. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (Vol. 1, p. 893). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

 

[serpentdove]

...[T]his Christian doctrine of eternal conscious punishing; it totally destroys the Mercy of God.

The saved (Titus 3:5) and regenerated (1 Pe 1:3) have received (1 Cor. 7:25) his mercy. They have cast themselves on him (2 Sam. 24:14).

[Ps. 136:16]

"Ps 136:16 led his people through the wilderness The events of Israel’s wilderness journey begin after crossing the Red Sea (Exod 15:22) and continue through the book of Numbers. The psalmist doesn’t mention Israel’s disobedience (Num 13–14) and the subsequent 40 years of wandering, but he focuses on the end result of the journey." Barry, J. D., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Mangum, D., & Whitehead, M. M. (2012). Faithlife Study Bible (Ps 136:16). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

 

[Mickiel]

You're not saved (2 Pe 2:1). :dizzy:
.

Well I know that is how you feel, its your desires. I will not return such horrible judgments to you in return. I believe you are saved, as well as all Christians, and all religions, and all unbelievers.

It is ugly and callous for you Christians to tell people they are not saved, as if you are God himself. As if you are the judges of God. Its terrible self righteous judgment on display. Its mean and unloving, in my view. But many of you Christians are addicted to doing this, which is why I am glad you have nothing to do with human salvation. You condemn people at the drop of a hat, you enjoy doing it, and you think you are doing God a service.

Anyway, enough of that; the whole chapter of Psalms 136, notice how it keeps repeating that God's Mercy endures forever! The psalms has 26 verses in it, and they all end with that same admonishment; its a wonderful Psalms.

 

[KingdomRose]

Something is wrong with the use of " Everlasting destruction" in verse 9, in my view. Look at part of the reason for this in verse 8;" In flaming fire taking vengeance on them " That KNOW NOT GOD!" Why should people be killed for not knowing God?

Why should vengeance be taken on me because I just don't know God?

How can you ignore this? Something is wrong here.

You don't kill humans forever, because they don't know God.

People won't be killed for not knowing God. What Paul was referring to was those who refused to know God. They hear the truth but aren't interested in learning who God really is.

However, the point was.....the Bible clearly says that wicked people WILL be destroyed. So you can't pick and choose which scriptures you accept.

oly:

 

[KingdomRose]

What is the judgment to come on this world? What's going to happen to all us confused people? Again, listen to Jesus in John 12:31-32;

"Now is the judgment of this world; ( listen, here comes the judgment, Jesus explains what it is), now shall the prince of this world be cast out!" That's the judgment right there; humans are not going to be cast out, demons are!

"And if I be lifted up from the earth, I will " Draw", ( draw here is the Greek word " Helkuo", which means " To Drag!), ALL humans unto me!" This is a prophecy from Christ that has yet to be fulfilled, at no time in human history has Jesus " Dragged every human to him", which means force; yes force, that word that Christians hate to use. Jesus got lifted up, or killed, so half of the prophecy has occurred, so the other half is the coming great day of salvation.

There will be no need for the Christian hell, and no need for God to destroy any humans.

Well, wicked humans clearly will be cast out WITH the demons.

I have a feeling that "helkuo" might have some other nuances to it. Every meaning I see in my dictionary, for "draw," leans toward compelling something to go in a certain direction, but nothing indicates that there necessarily be "force." The meaning includes "leading in a certain direction." But....you know the old saying: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't MAKE them drink!"

There is no "hell"! So stop talking about it. I have given you ample passages to show you that it is a BOGUS doctrine. Rest assured that there is no such thing.

Either people will accept Jehovah's universal sovereignty or they will go to sleep forever. That's it. A lot of people will be informed during Christ's Thousand-Year Reign. They will have the opportunity to learn, if they never had that opportunity before. Then they can make a choice, as many of us are making now.

 

[freelight]

Does Love coerce?

Does Love coerce?

I disagree, God will use stunning force on humanity , he will make them love him. Now you can take the word of a Christian, who says God will not force humanity, or you can look at Revelations 6th chapter, and read about the stunning force of the 6 seals opened up and unleashed on humanity.

Or you can read about more incredible force unleashed on humanity in Revelations 8th chapter, the Four Trumpets sounded are awesome force! In the 9th chapter, this unreal force is continued to be used by God on humanity; when this incredible force is finished, all of humanity will bow to God.

I think I'll chime in here to say that real love born of God will have in us a natural motivation and inspiration to love, because that is love's nature,.....and love will do as it wills. Every soul in alignment or harmony with 'love' will naturally love 'God' and do God's will, as the Spirit of God leads, guides and directs. Love has within it its own lawful dictates, its own inherent constitution,.... so to love is to fulfill the law of our being. 'Sin' is to miss the mark of love.

I don't know about all the metaphoric language of the book of Revelation,....some early fathers rejected that book for various reasons, and as you know...supporters of ECT use this book to push 'eternal hellfire and damnation'. I'd stick with the laws and principles of truth or Spirit, as these apply to all souls in all time and eternity. Universalism holds that all souls will eventually/ultimately surrender to love. This is a wonderful sentiment, and I usually hold a universalist disposition, however, the passages that speak of a soul perishing are evident,...unless we re-define or re-interpret what 'perish' means.

I don't think using the book of Revelation helps much in any case, but has some wonderful symbolic language and imagery, and can be translated in various ways.

 

[Mickiel]

Well, wicked humans clearly will be cast out WITH the demons.

I have a feeling that "helkuo" might have some other nuances to it. Every meaning I see in my dictionary, for "draw," leans toward compelling something to go in a certain direction, but nothing indicates that there necessarily be "force." The meaning includes "leading in a certain direction." But....you know the old saying: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't MAKE them drink!"

There is no "hell"! So stop talking about it. I have given you ample passages to show you that it is a BOGUS doctrine. Rest assured that there is no such thing.

Either people will accept Jehovah's universal sovereignty or they will go to sleep forever. That's it. A lot of people will be informed during Christ's Thousand-Year Reign. They will have the opportunity to learn, if they never had that opportunity before. Then they can make a choice, as many of us are making now.

This thread is discussing hell, so I will continue talking about it.

 

[Mickiel]

I think I'll chime in here to say that real love born of God will have in us a natural motivation and inspiration to love, because that is love's nature,.....and love will do as it wills. Every soul in alignment or harmony with 'love' will naturally love 'God' and do God's will, as the Spirit of God leads, guides and directs. Love has within it its own lawful dictates, its own inherent constitution,.... so to love is to fulfill the law of our being. 'Sin' is to miss the mark of love.

I don't know about all the metaphoric language of the book of Revelation,....some early fathers rejected that book for various reasons, and as you know...supporters of ECT use this book to push 'eternal hellfire and damnation'. I'd stick with the laws and principles of truth or Spirit, as these apply to all souls in all time and eternity. Universalism holds that all souls will eventually/ultimately surrender to love. This is a wonderful sentiment, and I usually hold a universalist disposition, however, the passages that speak of a soul perishing are evident,...unless we re-define or re-interpret what 'perish' means.

I don't think using the book of Revelation helps much in any case, but has some wonderful symbolic language and imagery, and can be translated in various ways.

Understanding some of the nature of Love, is easier than understanding the book of Revelations, which I don't understand much.

 

[KingdomRose]

I don't think real love can have hatred with it. To me this is a common misunderstanding encouraged through identification with the dual nature of the mind. God is oneness.

Yes, but the Bible also says that He hates evil. That stands to reason. Jehovah is a Person who has feelings! He is said to be sad, grief-stricken, happy, joyful....and for Him to hate what is bad is expected of anyone who is just.

"You shall not set up for yourself a sacred pillar [possibly a phallic symbol, to be worshiped] which the LORD your God hates." (Deuteronomy 16:22, NASB)

"Jehovah examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates." (Psalm 11:5, NWT)

"There are six things which the LORD hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, a false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers." (Proverbs 6:16-19, NASB)

"Hate evil, love good, and establish justice in the gate!" (Amos 5:15, NASB)

:thumb:

 

[KingdomRose]

God, salvation and heaven are unconditional.

No, not at all. The Bible, from one end to the other, cites conditions for salvation.


oly:

 

[Danoh]

Why would God need a place like this traditional eternal hell? Why would he co-exist with such a place in eternity? Does God need a garbage dump for humans? How and when did the grave become the traditional explination of hell?

Throughout Scripture, God is showing man his utter hopelessness to ever redeem himself no matter what blessing or curse as a motivating incentive God might come up with.

Be it the ultimate curse - a lake of fire - or the ultimate blessing - His Son's shed Blood on the Cross.

This, that He might save some from the one, through the other.

Look around; how's man doing so far? How's he measuring up in the face of either of those two motivations - be it the impending wrath of God, or the offer of the Grace of God?

Read Romans 1:16 to the end of chapter 3.

Its the answer to your Romans 9:16-24 question

 

[Mickiel]

Both eternal hell punishing or eternal death would be a " Casting off forever." No doubt about it, both would have eternal continual reach. IF they were true, it is my view that they are not. In Lamentations 3:31, " The Lord will NOT cast off forever." This cancels out both eternal hell or death. God will not do that. And you can find support against both these unusual assumptions in the bible, and sadly some support for them.