Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why didn't you answer my question?:
Then why did you come on this thread in the first place? This thread is strictly in regard to those who are saved.
I challenge you to quote me saying that.
Last edited:
Theology Club: Why Will No One in the Neo-MAD Camp Address John 3:16?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Why didn't you answer my question?:
I challenge you to quote me saying that.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I challenge you to quote me saying that.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Addressed by what JS likes to call a "Neo-MAD": John 3:16 KJV What it isn't and what it is!
John 3:16 KJV is not the gospel of Christ! It won't save anyone. It is not about how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that He was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16-17 KJV), the word of truth that after hearing and believing we are saved and sealed (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV).
John 3:16 is about Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The "us" in the passage is Israel. We are not Isael. Israel fell (Romans 11:11 KJV), diminished and by the close of the Acts period was cast away for a time and for a season. Israel awaits their sins to be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19-21 KJV). The apostle Paul confirms it in Romans 11.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
That is FUTURE. It is not happening today. It will not happen until the Body of Christ is taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2:7) by the catching up (1 Thes. 4:16-18 KJV) and then the prophetic clock will resume with the time of Jacob's trouble, the Great Tribulation.
As for today, God is not dealing with a nation, but a filling up of a mystery Body by the foolishness of preaching (not foolishness preaching 1 Corinthians 1:18-21 KJV) of a mystery gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Romans 16:25-27 KJV, Galatians 1:11-12 KJV) extended to even the likes of people like you and me (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV, Ephesians 3:1-12 KJV).
The doctrine written directly to the church, the Body of Christ is found in the form of sound words (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV) of Romans through Philemon.
I joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, to be in the Body of Christ after trusting Him believing the word of truth (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV) by Whom we have NOW (presently and already) received the atonement!
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
John 3:16 KJV is not the gospel of Christ! It won't save anyone. It is not about how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures and that He was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), which is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16-17 KJV), the word of truth that after hearing and believing we are saved and sealed (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV).
John 3:16 is about Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The "us" in the passage is Israel. We are not Isael. Israel fell (Romans 11:11 KJV), diminished and by the close of the Acts period was cast away for a time and for a season. Israel awaits their sins to be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19-21 KJV). The apostle Paul confirms it in Romans 11.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
That is FUTURE. It is not happening today. It will not happen until the Body of Christ is taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2:7) by the catching up (1 Thes. 4:16-18 KJV) and then the prophetic clock will resume with the time of Jacob's trouble, the Great Tribulation.
As for today, God is not dealing with a nation, but a filling up of a mystery Body by the foolishness of preaching (not foolishness preaching 1 Corinthians 1:18-21 KJV) of a mystery gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Romans 16:25-27 KJV, Galatians 1:11-12 KJV) extended to even the likes of people like you and me (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV, Ephesians 3:1-12 KJV).
The doctrine written directly to the church, the Body of Christ is found in the form of sound words (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV) of Romans through Philemon.
I joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, to be in the Body of Christ after trusting Him believing the word of truth (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV) by Whom we have NOW (presently and already) received the atonement!
Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
I just did.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The discussion is not about whether or not John 3:16 is the gospel or if believing John 3:16 will save anyone.
Instead, it says that those who "believe" in Him should not perish but have everlasting life:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
So when anyone believes in the Lord Jesus that person is saved.
All you are doing is saying what John 3:16 isn't but you are not giving us the interpretation of what is said in that verse.
Even if you are right about that the fact remains that the verse says that "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
The Greek word translated "whosoever" in this part of the verse means "any one, every one" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
So the verse says that any one who believes in the Lord Jesus is saved.
But according to the teaching in the Neo-MAD camp a Jew who lived under the law could believe in the Lord Jesus but yet not be saved. According to that teaching a Jew who lived under the law could believe yet never be saved if he didn't do works!
If you can't see that the teaching of those in the Neo-MAD community is contradicted by what is said at John 3:16 then you are absolutely lacking in even the slightest degree of spiritual discernment.
I asked you to give me your interpretation of the meaning of John 3:16 and you only gave me an interpretation of half of it. You left out any interpretation of there words:
"...that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
If you want to take credit for interpreting the verse then first you have to interpret the meaning of what is said there.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I call them Neo-MAD because they are the New MAD. These people have abandoned the sound teachings of both Sir Robert Anderson and J.C. O'Hair of the original Mad and have adopted many of the teachings of the Acts 28 crowd.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Leave it to JS to jump to conclusions and conveniently omit that Israel's salvation was/will be dependent upon them doing something by faith (James 2:18 KJV):
Repent, and believe the gospel (Mark 1:4 KJV) by baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4 KJV, Mark 16:16 KJV, Acts 2:38 KJV), keep the commandments (John 14:15 KJV, Matthew 23:2-3 KJV, John 15:5-10 KJV), endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 10:22 KJV), go through the trial of their faith (1 Peter 1:7 KJV), receiving the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls (1 Peter 1:9 KJV). That salvation is of the grace that "should" come unto them (Acts 15:11 KJV, 1 Peter 1:10 KJV).
heir
TOL Subscriber
Where's your dispensational chart that begins with Paul?
1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
He couldn't.
So why did you even bring your ideas about Saul to this thread about John 3:16 since you knew that Saul had nothing to do with what is said in that verse?
Do you have anything at all to say about the actual subject of this thread?
Shasta
Well-known member
I do not think there is any mystery to this at all, at least there is none if we have not become confounded by our theological systems. The simple meaning which former sinners all over the world have come to understand is that if we put our faith in Christ he will save us now and in the world to come. Jesus' promise is true and open for men of all generations and time periods. I keep hearing that Jesus taught a so-called Jewish gospel. I do not believe the Bible teaches any kind of salvation by works.
When Jesus told people to keep the commandments He was using the Law as it was intended to be used - to show the impossibility of keeping it and to silence the pride of men. "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.( Romans 3:20) This truth is applicable for all fallen humanity. It is just as true before the cross as it was afterward. It did not become true one day when Paul wrote it down. Jesus used the law to demolish people's faith in themselves and then He called them to put their faith in Him instead.
An example of His method can be seen in His answer to the lawyer.
25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” 29 But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” (Luke 25:25-29)
If this man or any of us were perfectly conformed to the image of the Son we would reflect perfectly the nature of God who is Love. Then Loving God and our neighbor would be as easy as first grade Arithmetic. However it was obvious the lawyer did not love the world but that he wanted to exclude at least some of them. Like a good lawyer he tried to escape the essence of all the Law through a technicality. He asked Jesus this question, not to clarify but to obscure the truth. His motive, the Bible said, was to "justify" himself (that is, to make himself righteous). Rather than admitting he was a sinner who loved himself first and foremost he wanted to falsify the scales. Jesus set the standard of Godliness - not through teaching an abstract principle but through telling a story that exemplified personified agape.
Jesus did not say to people, "do good works to be saved." To say that is to say Jesus propagated a lie for no one can be acceptable to God through the Law because no one can keep it perfectly. James said, "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it" (James 2:10) James could have expected people to become righteous by fulfilling the law. If he ever had such a thought he defeated his own purpose by setting the bar too high." Paul agrees with him in this "I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision (as a means of achieving righteous before God) is obligated to keep the whole law.
Jesus always called men to have faith in Him.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36)
Jesus was not offering some "Jewish Gospel" that involves an incongruent mixture of faith and works. His is a Gospel based on faith (believe = faith). However, the step of faith (to trust in, rely upon, have confidence in Him) brings a person into God's will. Hence in this verse having faith in the Son is equivalent to being in obedience to Him.
To agree with Jerry is to affirm he has been right to hound after others attempting to force his view on them all these decades.
The issue is not whether he is right or wrong in his beliefs but that he is dead wrong in what he has done with it.
Think about that a minute; that is what he has done with what he believes is the truth; hounded after others for decades now; attempting to shame and or force it on them.
Meaning; to prove him wrong, if he is, would only arm him with the actual truth, for him to hound after others with, should he embrace having been proven wrong.
There is no wining this that he believes is about winning.
In other words, to engage this mini, would be, bully of a pope at all, is for more others to have to suffer him all over again, for who knows how much longer.
There is your dead horse, people. There is your nut, in a nutshell.
The issue is not whether he is right or wrong in his beliefs but that he is dead wrong in what he has done with it.
Think about that a minute; that is what he has done with what he believes is the truth; hounded after others for decades now; attempting to shame and or force it on them.
Meaning; to prove him wrong, if he is, would only arm him with the actual truth, for him to hound after others with, should he embrace having been proven wrong.
There is no wining this that he believes is about winning.
In other words, to engage this mini, would be, bully of a pope at all, is for more others to have to suffer him all over again, for who knows how much longer.
There is your dead horse, people. There is your nut, in a nutshell.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You couldn't care less about what the Scriptures reveal.
All you care is getting back at me because I demonstrated that you are wrong when you say that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.
Your idea cannot possibly be right because the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law in the following verse contradict your idea:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
The very moment when the Jews who lived under the law "believed" they were saved. It was His words which saved those same Jews, as witnessed by these words He spoke to them:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
way 2 go
Well-known member
Way 2 go, the sense of what you are asserting by way of your bringing up Saul, as an example, is very simple to follow, when one actually has an open mind to the views of others, and doesn't just call for that from them.
What's his name wrote "The Neo-MADs on this forum are absolutely convinced that the Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works. How can they be certain of that with John 3:16 in view."
You responded with "1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him."
You brought up Saul as an example of , and in your response to what's his name's assertion that "Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works."
Not that I agree, or disagree. My point is that what you wrote is very simple to follow when some one actually has an open mind, and is not just blowing hot air at others about how they would get what he is talking about if they had an open mind.
One more case of the blow hard what's his name proves himself to be; exposing his inability by his own words, in his failure once more, to get the sense of another's simple words, unless he's first read some interpretation about them in some fifty, sixty, one hundred year old external source somewhere.
What's his name wrote "The Neo-MADs on this forum are absolutely convinced that the Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works. How can they be certain of that with John 3:16 in view."
You responded with "1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him."
You brought up Saul as an example of , and in your response to what's his name's assertion that "Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works."
Not that I agree, or disagree. My point is that what you wrote is very simple to follow when some one actually has an open mind, and is not just blowing hot air at others about how they would get what he is talking about if they had an open mind.
One more case of the blow hard what's his name proves himself to be; exposing his inability by his own words, in his failure once more, to get the sense of another's simple words, unless he's first read some interpretation about them in some fifty, sixty, one hundred year old external source somewhere.
i'm sure somebody in camp addressed John 3:16 KJV -
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Jews who believed and lived under the law were saved the same way which David was saved, apart from works:
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).
There is no great mystery to this truth but those in the Neo-MAD community are unable to understand this fact.
In fact, Paul made it plain that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
Since the Jews under the law were saved by grace through faith it is obvious that they were saved apart from works. That is because if it is of works then it cannot be described as being of grace:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).
This is so simple but those in the Neo-MAD community just refuse to believe it.
What do you think? do you think that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith apart from works?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Then please tell me which post number we can see that one of those in the Neo-MAD crowd gave an interpretation of the meaning of the verse?
Plenty have over the years. But what can you expect from someone who one size fits all everyone who he thinks does not agree with him, into this Neo label of his.
He has yet to lay out what said Neo's beliefs supposedly are.
Only that he alone has the truth and has been given some special dispensation of some sort that he conduct this fool, decades old hunt down of these Mid Acts criminals his Don Quixote joke of mind compels him to hunt down and try them by the fire of his hot air.