ECT Why shouldn't I convert from Evangelical Protestant to Catholic?

[User Name]

There is no record of "weekly" first day observances in the Biblical Scriptures

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread...

1 Corinthians 16:2
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him...​

And pagans met on the first day of the week (Sunday) in honor of their SUNgod long before the supposedly newly converted Roman and Greek early fathers of the RCC began meeting on Sunday.

The scriptures liken Christ to the Sun, and liken the resurrection of Christ to the rise of the Sun on Sunday, all of which is no coincidence. Notice the connection between Sunrise and Sonrise in these verses:

Mark 16:2, 16:6
Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen...But he said to them, “...He is risen!​

When the Sun rose, the Son also rose! That was not a coincidence. He also made his very first appearance to the disciples after his resurrection on a Sunday (John 20:19).

By the way, it is no coincidence that the words SUN and SON are homophones! The Son's rise was prophesied by Malachi by likening His resurrection to the rise of the Sun:

Malachi 4:2
But to you who fear My name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings;​

Notice that Malachi likens Jesus Christ, the Son of God, with the Sun, and compares His resurrection with the rise of the Sun. As the Sun rises (in a manner of speaking), the Son also rises!

Jesus, the Son, is likened to the Sun in Luke 1:67, 78-79 NIV:

His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied: "...because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace.​

Other scripture passages do the same, such as 2 Peter 1:19.

The Sun is the bridegroom in Psalm 19:1, 4-5:

The heavens declare the glory of God...In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber...​

The Son is the bridegroom in John 3:29:

He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.​

In the gospel of John, Jesus was referring to the sun when he referred to "the light of this world":

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. (John 11:9)​

And in the same gospel, Jesus also referred to himself as "the light of the world":

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. (John 8:12)​

So we see that scripture likens the Son with the sun, and that is why Christians observe Sunday--because it is the day of the Son and the day of the Sun.

So it is entirely appropriate that under the New Covenant Christians observe Sunday as our day of observance because it is both the day of the Sun and the day of the Son.

The early Christian leader Justin Martyr wrote the following in chapter 67 of his First Apology:

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit (2 Corinthians 9:7); and what is collected is deposited with the president (1 Corinthians 16:2), who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter (Genesis 1:3-5), made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead (Mark 16:2, 16:9). For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.​

Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxvii.html

 

[Old man]

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread...

1 Corinthians 16:2
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him...​

The scriptures liken Christ to the Sun, and liken the resurrection of Christ to the rise of the Sun on Sunday, all of which is no coincidence. Notice the connection between Sunrise and Sonrise in these verses:

Mark 16:2, 16:6
Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen...But he said to them, “...He is risen!​

When the Sun rose, the Son also rose! That was not a coincidence. He also made his very first appearance to the disciples after his resurrection on a Sunday (John 20:19).

By the way, it is no coincidence that the words SUN and SON are homophones! The Son's rise was prophesied by Malachi by likening His resurrection to the rise of the Sun:

Malachi 4:2
But to you who fear My name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings;​

Notice that Malachi likens Jesus Christ, the Son of God, with the Sun, and compares His resurrection with the rise of the Sun. As the Sun rises (in a manner of speaking), the Son also rises!

Jesus, the Son, is likened to the Sun in Luke 1:67, 78-79 NIV:

His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied: "...because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace.​

Other scripture passages do the same, such as 2 Peter 1:19.

The Sun is the bridegroom in Psalm 19:1, 4-5:

The heavens declare the glory of God...In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber...​

The Son is the bridegroom in John 3:29:

He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.​

In the gospel of John, Jesus was referring to the sun when he referred to "the light of this world":

Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. (John 11:9)​

And in the same gospel, Jesus also referred to himself as "the light of the world":

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. (John 8:12)​

So we see that scripture likens the Son with the sun, and that is why Christians observe Sunday--because it is the day of the Son and the day of the Sun.

So it is entirely appropriate that under the New Covenant Christians observe Sunday as our day of observance because it is both the day of the Sun and the day of the Son.

The early Christian leader Justin Martyr wrote the following in chapter 67 of his First Apology:

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit (2 Corinthians 9:7); and what is collected is deposited with the president (1 Corinthians 16:2), who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter (Genesis 1:3-5), made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead (Mark 16:2, 16:9). For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.​

Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.ii.lxvii.html

Weekly - every 1st day of the week, every week, no such found in the Bible, only the Sabbath weekly, every week OT and NT.

As for all the reasons for Sunday, still no such "weekly" tradition found in the Scriptures being done either by Christ or any of the Apostles. As was their manner (both Christ and the Apostle Paul) on the Sabbath.

If you have even one Scripture that shows where the weekly Sabbath of the Lord was changed to the weekly first day Sunday I would like to see it.

If not, it remains only a tradition (and command of the RCC) of men, nothing more.

Christ rose on the first day of the week? He was gone already very early on the first day of the week so there is no proof or reason for that claim either. "Three days and three nights" = 72 hours.

Friday afternoon to yet dark very early Sunday morning? Was Christ lying or is the late Friday death and early Sunday resurrection a lie?

Now understand, if you are going to give the reasoning of men instead of the fact of Scripture then any further discussion would be useless which I think you would also agree.

Have a good one.

 

[Cruciform]

And pagans met on the first day of the week (Sunday) in honor of their SUNgod long before the supposedly newly converted Roman and Greek early fathers of the RCC began meeting on Sunday.

...and pagans used sacred texts in their false religions, so apparently---by that logic---Christians ought not to use the Bible in worship or devotion! Clearly, your entire approach is one gigantic Non Sequitur Fallacy. Back to Post #1613 above, which stands exactly as given.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Old man]

...and pagans used sacred texts in their false religions, so apparently---by that logic---Christians ought not to use the Bible in worship or devotion! Clearly, your entire approach is one gigantic Non Sequitur Fallacy. Back to Post #1613 above, which stands exactly as given.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

"Pagans used sacred texts" what do you term as "sacred" texts? To me there is only one "sacred" text and that is what is written in the Holy Bible, no writings beyond that (Genesis - Revelation) do I consider "sacred".

"--- by that logic Christians ought not to use the Bible in worship or devotion!"

No, it is just the opposite, if you believe the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God then Christians ought to use the Bible in worship and devotion only, and here again, there is no weekly Sunday observance or annual Easter Sunday (Resurrection Sunday) and Christmas celebrated, observed or even hinted at in the Bible, all non-Biblical counterfeits added by men which were of ancient pagan practices used in the worship of their many false gods and most all going back to Babylon where the sun-god was their primary god and the names given to the other six days of the week were the lesser gods, the first day - the Suns Day and on down the list of days and gods.

I myself was a born, baptized and confirmed Lutheran which I dropped out of at the age of 40, I have not since joined or became a member of any organized religion or group.

There are 1000s of different Protestant denominations, 100s of different Sabatarian groups and said to be some 23 different Catholic Christians and all claiming to believe in and worship the same God, yet you read in the Scriptures there is ONE BODY, ONE FAITH of the Church of God found in the New Testament.

Which one is right? Is it the one you belong to and all others are wrong?

The 1000s of religious systems we see today are no more that organizations of confusion all believing THEY are the one and all the rest are wrong. So as for myself, I'll just stick with the Scriptures where we are told the Holy Spirit will impart the truth to all who earnestly seek it, not some so-called religious leader be it the Pope or any one else who claims THEIRS is the way to salvation (heaven).

 

[aikido7]

First off, evangelicalism (or Christian fundamentalism) IS Protestantism.

Second of all, if God is telling you to take a certain fork in the road, then by all means do it.

We have beliefs that we change every day. Every single day. So changing one's spiritual beliefs, while important, is no big deal in the bigger picture. It's called "revival."

 

[Cruciform]

...all non-Biblical counterfeits added by men which were of ancient pagan practices used in the worship of their many false gods and most all going back to Babylon where the sun-god was their primary god and the names given to the other six days of the week were the lesser gods, the first day - the Suns Day and on down the list of days and gods.

Already answered in Post #1613 above, as well as here.

Moving on... :yawn:

 

[republicanchick]

And pagans met on the first day of the week (Sunday) in honor of their SUNgod long before the supposedly newly converted Roman and Greek early fathers of the RCC began meeting on Sunday.



d.

ALL of pagan origin taken by the RCC and declared to be holy observances.
ch.

So as I said before, makes no difference, Catholic or Protestant.

The Catholic Church changed the day of worship b/c it was on SUNDAY that Jesus rose from the dead

It's as simple as that.. but you peple who are always learning and yet never learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth... well, you just can't admit the Cathlic Church is right on anything..


___

 

[Old man]

The Catholic Church changed the day of worship b/c it was on SUNDAY that Jesus rose from the dead

It's as simple as that.. but you peple who are always learning and yet never learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth... well, you just can't admit the Cathlic Church is right on anything..


___

Correct, the "Catholic Church" changed the day of worship.

But did "GOD"?

If so, show me where in the Scriptures?

The Apostle Paul's "weekly" manner after the resurrection;
Acts 13:14, "on the Sabbath day"
vs.42, "the next Sabbath"
vs.44, the next Sabbath"
15:21, "every Sabbath day"
16:13, "on the Sabbath"
17:2, "three Sabbath days"
18:4, "every Sabbath"

So from which do you draw your knowledge of truth, the Catholic Church or the Holy inspired Word of God?

 

[republicanchick]

"Pa, if you believe the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God then Christians ought to use the Bible in worship and devotion only, heaven).

so we throw out prayer?

please

The Bible (New T) came to us (was put togehter) almost 400 years after Christ ascended.

Where were the Christians before then? Were there any?

 

[republicanchick]

Correct, the "Catholic Church" changed the day of worship.

But did "GOD"?

d?

it is sad taht protestants are SO far removed from the ORiginal Church that they make statements like this, separating God from the Church he established in Christ

 

[Old man]

it is sad taht protestants are SO far removed from the ORiginal Church that they make statements like this, separating God from the Church he established in Christ

Why do you side step the question?

"the Catholic Church change the day of worship" - republicanchick

The question remains, But did GOD? If so show me where in the Scriptures?

 

[Cruciform]

"the Catholic Church change the day of worship" - The question remains, But did GOD? If so show me where in the Scriptures?

Right here. Thanks for asking.

 

[Old man]

Right here. Thanks for asking.

No, your "right here" as usual proves nothing, just more misuse and twisting of Scriptures attempting to prove the non-Scriptural tradition of a weekly Sunday observance, nor does the quoting of the early fathers of the RCC prove anything.

You quote a Catholic writing that uses Bible Scriptures that you claim shows the first day (Sunday) as the NT day but what does some of your Churches other writers have to say about that?

For instance father T. Enright C S S R states "I have repeatedly offered $1000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday Holy."

The Catholic Virginian, Oct.3rd, 1947
"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday."

So why do you post an article that attempts to claim the change is according to Scriptures? I have seen this in RCC writings before, one will claim Sunday is of Scripture (as you did) and another will claim that Sunday observance has nothing to do with the Bible, only the power of the Church.

Perhaps your Catholic Church should get it together and be of one mind.

As for the twisting and misuse of Rev.1:10. Nowhere in the Scriptures do you find Sunday as the Lord's Day, that term was applied to Sunday again by one of the early RCC fathers. John was writing prophecy and the book of Revelation covers the Day of the Lord i.e. the Lord's Day, and also Christ said no man knows the Day or the hour.

Both Christ and the Apostle Paul's weekly manner was on the Sabbath and no where in the Scriptures can you find otherwise

The "first day" references you use mean nothing when reading Paul's week after week (weekly) observance of the Sabbath as shown in Acts 13:14, 42, 44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2 and 18:4 . If the Day was changed after the cross, Paul did not get the memo, he kept right on observing the 7th Day Sabbath.

 

[Cruciform]

No, your "right here" as usual proves nothing, just more misuse and twisting of Scriptures attempting to prove the non-Scriptural tradition of a weekly Sunday observance, nor does the quoting of the early fathers of the RCC prove anything.

Your preference for the mere opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect over the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Catholic Church is noted. :yawn:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Old man]

Your preference for the mere opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect over the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Catholic Church is noted. :yawn:

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

The Apostle Peter died long before a Vatican (Catholic Church) even existed. Peter would have been speaking of the "Church of God" in Babylon/Rome (fits)

And kissing the foot of an idol which supposedly represents Peter is another anti-Biblical (sick) Catholic tradition.

And even if Peter would have had been the first Pope (NOT) then your first Pope would have been married and had a wife.

 

[Cruciform]

The Apostle Peter died long before a Vatican (Catholic Church) even existed.

On the contrary. By the close of the 1st century, the one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself was already commonly known as "the Catholic Church." This is a demonstrable fact of history.

And kissing the foot of a [statue] which supposedly represents Peter is another anti-Biblical (sick) Catholic tradition.

Try again.

And even if Peter would have had been the first Pope (NOT) then your first Pope would have been married and had a wife.

It is true that, at one point, Peter had been married. Your point is...?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Old man]

Your preference for the mere opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect over the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Catholic Church is noted. :yawn:

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Pro.18:17
"He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbor cometh and searcheth him."

Was Peter the first Pope of Rome?

www.remnantofgod.org/pope1.htm

 

[jamie]

But we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread and in five days joined them at Troas where we stayed seven days. Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight. (Acts 20:6-7)

I have seen people try to use Acts 20:7 to establish Sunday observance, but does it really? It seems they often fail to mention the preceding verse about the Days of Unleavened Bread.

The Days of Unleavened Bread occur annually from Nisan 15 through Nisan 21. During this seven day period there are normally three Sabbaths, two annual Sabbaths and the weekly Sabbath. Occasionally one of the annual Sabbaths will coincide with the weekly Sabbath and there will only be two Sabbaths during Unleavened Bread.

Paul stayed at Troas seven days which would be Monday through Sunday. Luke does not tell us whether Paul spoke at the synagogue on the Sabbath but he does say that when the people broke bread that evening (the beginning of Sunday) he spoke until daybreak Sunday morning.

Paul evidently had a lot to say to the people of Troas and he wanted to get it in before the people continued their harvest the next day and Paul moved on. Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem for Pentecost.

There is nothing about Paul's all night speaking that established a precedent for Sunday observance. If anything it establishes the observance of Unleavened Bread. Too bad that is usually skipped over.​

 

[Old man]

But we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread and in five days joined them at Troas where we stayed seven days. Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight. (Acts 20:6-7)

I have seen people try to use Acts 20:7 to establish Sunday observance, but does it really? It seems they often fail to mention the preceding verse about the Days of Unleavened Bread.

The Days of Unleavened Bread occur annually from Nisan 15 through Nisan 21. During this seven day period there are normally three Sabbaths, two annual Sabbaths and the weekly Sabbath. Occasionally one of the annual Sabbaths will coincide with the weekly Sabbath and there will only be two Sabbaths during Unleavened Bread.

Paul stayed at Troas seven days which would be Monday through Sunday. Luke does not tell us whether Paul spoke at the synagogue on the Sabbath but he does say that when the people broke bread that evening (the beginning of Sunday) he spoke until daybreak Sunday morning.

Paul evidently had a lot to say to the people of Troas and he wanted to get it in before the people continued their harvest the next day and Paul moved on. Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem for Pentecost.

There is nothing about Paul's all night speaking that established a precedent for Sunday observance. If anything it establishes the observance of Unleavened Bread. Too bad that is usually skipped over.​

Correct, take Acts 20:7 to the Greek, the breaking of bread was nothing but an evening meal and Paul was discussing with those there, not preaching a sermon.

As the Cath's misuse that verse is just more of their twisting and misusing the Scriptures to try and justify Sunday-keeping as the NT way.

 

[Cruciform]

Pro.18:17 "He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbor cometh and searcheth him."

Consider yourself "searched."

Was Peter the first Pope of Rome?

Yes.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+