Why Calvinist, Catholics, Others, Do NOT Have Saving Faith

[Robert Pate]

I trust in everything Jesus tells us to do.

I do NOT believe that Jesus came to earth, taught us the Way, and then God nailed all Jesus' words about obeying to the cross.

That is beyond ignorant and insane, see 2 Peter 3:16.

What is that terrible odor. It must be your filthy rags righteousness.

 

[God's Truth]

What is that terrible odor. It must be your filthy rags righteousness.

No, obeying Jesus' beautiful powerful words does not make us filthy and stinky.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

No, I am saying that all denominations teach some falseness, some more than others; and, even those who never join any group, they do not necessarily have the truth, unless they are obeying Jesus.

I disagree.

Jesus founded a Church (Matt. 16), He said the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matt. 16), He said He would be with it always until the end of the age (Matt. 28).

If His Church teaches falsehood....Jesus failed. He couldn't protect His Church from lying.

I don't buy that.

If all denominations teach some falsehood...Christianity is a free-for-all. Everybody with a belly-button gets to decide for themselves which parts of this or that Church are true or false. That isn't a biblical idea at all.

Not obeying God is disobedience.

I agree.

It is not what I say it is what God says.

Actually, it is what you say. Because it will really come down to not what the Bible says....but what is meant by what is said.

In other words, it will come down to which interpretation of what God says is correct.

Those who are disobedient make all kinds of excuses why they are disobedient.

Don't you think all sinners have a tendency to do that?

I was raised strict Catholic and the Catholics are experts on making excuses for not obeying. Not that they are maliciously doing that, mind you.

That is a pretty broad brush that you are painting all Catholics with right there. Don't you think it is more accurate to say all kinds of Christians are experts on making excuses for not obeying.

What you downgrade to calling God’s written Word a list, does not make it any less true.

Hang on a second. I never called God's written Word a list. You are putting words in my mouth.

You made a list of what you think are examples of Catholics not being obedient to God.

I called your list....well, a list. Because that is what it is. And making a list doesn't prove anything about the truthfulness or falsehood of what is on the list.

In other words, just because you make a list of what you think is disobedience, doesn't mean it is.
That doesn't prove anything.

In fact, you defaming the written Word by calling it a list is more proof that Catholics make excuses why not to obey. In this case it is you calling it a ‘list’.

C'mon, man. Now I "defamed" God's written Word because I called your list a list? You didn't quote scripture. You paraphrased some of what is in various different parts of Scripture and made a list.

Do you have something against lists?

I know all too well about the excuses the Catholics give for not obeying.

Me too. And other Christians as well.

Well, this thread is about Catholics and about being saved.

Well. Sortof. I responded to Robert because he stated that Catholics do not have faith in Christ or faith in God. (I'd have to go back and look at the OP).

I would like that.



Let’s discuss it publicly. Would you like to start the thread?

I am really excited about talking to you about this in detail. I was raised Catholic and my mom and dad died as Catholics. The Catholic denomination has a very personal interest for me.

Cool. But you must be a bit patient with me. Some people, I think, are on this site, like, all of the time. Everyday. I can't do that. I will try as best I can but my other commitments keep me from the screen. Life happens.

No. I don't want to start the thread. After all, you made the claim that Catholics are disobeying God by doing quite a few of the things that they do.

Why don't you pick the one that you most disagree with and we'll go from there. If I pick one, it could be like the 10th on your list or something.

And I am sorry both of your parents have passed on. Even if it has been awhile. I am blessed to have both of mine still here.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Catholicism is an effort to becoming pleasing to God by the works of the law, Romans 3:20.

Shame on you, Robert. That is a lie.

You can eat wafers and drink grape juice until the cows come home. That will never make you like Jesus.

Shame on you again, Robert. Catholics don't do that.

 

[jsanford108]

Let’s discuss it publicly. Would you like to start the thread?

I am really excited about talking to you about this in detail. I was raised Catholic and my mom and dad died as Catholics. The Catholic denomination has a very personal interest for me.

May I join in on that thread?


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[jsanford108]

May I ask how you derive your fundamentals from the Bible, Robert?

As well as, what are some of your key doctrines?


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[God's Truth]

May I join in on that thread?


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Oh definitely!

 

[God's Truth]

I disagree.

Jesus founded a Church (Matt. 16), He said the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matt. 16), He said He would be with it always until the end of the age (Matt. 28).

Think about what Jesus says. Think about it more carefully.
Jesus says the GATES of HELL will not prevail.

That means Hell has gates that keep people in.

Jesus was the one that went to Hell and the gates of Hell could not keep Jesus there, because Jesus rose from the dead.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

May I join in on that thread?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Hey jsanford,

It is my understanding that public threads are public threads so yeah, anyone can join in.

I have noticed that if you leave a conversation for too long (like even a day or so) you can miss a lot and then it can be difficult to jump back in somewhere. That has happened to me.

Peace.

 

[God's Truth]

If His Church teaches falsehood....Jesus failed. He couldn't protect His Church from lying.

I don't buy that.

If all denominations teach some falsehood...Christianity is a free-for-all. Everybody with a belly-button gets to decide for themselves which parts of this or that Church are true or false. That isn't a biblical idea at all.

During the laying of the foundation, there were churches established, churches were the people’s homes where they got together to read and share the books and letters from the writers of the New Testament, and to hear the visiting apostle, to hear the truth for the first time.

The Catholic church is nothing like the churches of the New Testament times.


Colossians 4:16 After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.

1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers and sisters.

 

[God's Truth]

In other words, it will come down to which interpretation of what God says is correct.

No, there is a way to know what God says and what He means.

God gives wisdom and understanding to those who obey Him.

John 14:21 The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

Psalm 119:100 I have more understanding than the elders, for I obey your precepts.

Proverbs 3:32 For the LORD detests the perverse but takes the upright into his confidence.

Proverbs 1:23 Repent at my rebuke! Then I will pour out my thoughts to you, I will make known to you my teachings.

See Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

2 Timothy 2:25 correcting opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance and then knowledge of the truth.

 

[God's Truth]

Don't you think all sinners have a tendency to do that?

That is a pretty broad brush that you are painting all Catholics with right there. Don't you think it is more accurate to say all kinds of Christians are experts on making excuses for not obeying.

No, because many people who call themselves Christian say they do NOT have to obey.

Hang on a second. I never called God's written Word a list. You are putting words in my mouth.

I gave scriptures and you called it a list as if it were a bad thing.

You made a list of what you think are examples of Catholics not being obedient to God.

I know what the Catholic denomination teaches.

In other words, just because you make a list of what you think is disobedience, doesn't mean it is.
That doesn't prove anything.

Your mere denial is what does not mean anything.

C'mon, man. Now I "defamed" God's written Word because I called your list a list? You didn't quote scripture. You paraphrased some of what is in various different parts of Scripture and made a list.

No, I quoted scriptures and gave references.

Well. Sortof. I responded to Robert because he stated that Catholics do not have faith in Christ or faith in God. (I'd have to go back and look at the OP).

Cool. But you must be a bit patient with me. Some people, I think, are on this site, like, all of the time. Everyday. I can't do that. I will try as best I can but my other commitments keep me from the screen. Life happens.

I will be patient. I hope that you have noticed that I have been taking my time to explain and give scriptures to you already. I have to go for now but I hope we can keep discussing.

No. I don't want to start the thread. After all, you made the claim that Catholics are disobeying God by doing quite a few of the things that they do.

Why don't you pick the one that you most disagree with and we'll go from there. If I pick one, it could be like the 10th on your list or something.

And I am sorry both of your parents have passed on. Even if it has been awhile. I am blessed to have both of mine still here.

Peace.

Thank you, it means so much to me that you said that. Most people do not even have any empathy towards another to say that. My mom died when I was 24, and my dad died a couple years after that.

I was still a Catholic at that time and I wish I knew what I know now.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Think about what Jesus says. Think about it more carefully.
Jesus says the GATES of HELL will not prevail.

Prevail against what? His Church. The gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. That is what Jesus said.

That means Hell has gates that keep people in.

Well, maybe. I mean, it could be a metaphor. What kind of gate keeps bodiless people in? Those in hell have no bodies (at least, not yet). Fallen angels and Satan have no bodies.

Hell is the place of evil forces , Satan (the father of lies), that brings death, lies, and destruction.

Jesus is telling us that those evil forces with their lies and deception will not overcome His Church.

But if you believe that Jesus' Church can teach lies and falsehoods...well, then Satan, the father of lies, did overcome Jesus' Church.

And he got it to teach lies.

Jesus was the one that went to Hell and the gates of Hell could not keep Jesus there, because Jesus rose from the dead.

Agreed. But that isn't what He was talking about in Matthew 16 because He isn't the Church. He is the head of the Church.

He didn't say "the gates of hell will not prevail against Me.".

Peace.

 

[God's Truth]

I have to go for now. Please keep in touch with me Bard_the-Bowman.

I hope to be back on tonight.

 

[God's Truth]

Prevail against what? His Church. The gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. That is what Jesus said.



Well, maybe. I mean, it could be a metaphor. What kind of gate keeps bodiless people in? Those in hell have no bodies (at least, not yet). Fallen angels and Satan have no bodies.

Hell is the place of evil forces , Satan (the father of lies), that brings death, lies, and destruction.

Jesus is telling us that those evil forces with their lies and deception will not overcome His Church.

But if you believe that Jesus' Church can teach lies and falsehoods...well, then Satan, the father of lies, did overcome Jesus' Church.

And he got it to teach lies.



Agreed. But that isn't what He was talking about in Matthew 16 because He isn't the Church. He is the head of the Church.

He didn't say "the gates of hell will not prevail against Me.".

Peace.

Hell is where spirits of many people go.

Jesus is the Church.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

During the laying of the foundation, there were churches established, churches were the people’s homes where they got together to read and share the books and letters from the writers of the New Testament, and to hear the visiting apostle, to hear the truth for the first time.

The Catholic church is nothing like the churches of the New Testament times.

During the laying of the foundation.....ok. Sure. During the laying of the foundation.

What happens after a foundation has been laid? Just leave it at that? Always a foundation and nothing else?

Naw. Build up the Church over time.

Yeah, the Church today looks different today than then. So what? Jesus said it would look like a mustard seed that grows over time. And it did.

1st century Christians had some New Testament writings, and some writings that didn't end up being in the New Testament. But they didn't have a New Testament.

Should we not have a New Testament because they didn't either?

And you left out the part about sharing in the breaking of the bread in those early home churches.(Acts 2:42)

A lot of people just skip all that, I think.

Peace.


Colossians 4:16 After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.

1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers and sisters.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

No, there is a way to know what God says and what He means.

God gives wisdom and understanding to those who obey Him.

John 14:21 The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

Psalm 119:100 I have more understanding than the elders, for I obey your precepts.

Proverbs 3:32 For the LORD detests the perverse but takes the upright into his confidence.

Proverbs 1:23 Repent at my rebuke! Then I will pour out my thoughts to you, I will make known to you my teachings.

See Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

2 Timothy 2:25 correcting opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance and then knowledge of the truth.

Then why are there so many differences in Christianity? Is God not doing a good job of giving people understanding?

Or are all people just not obeying good enough to gain understanding?


And so begins the massive merry go-round of each person believing that they have the truth and anyone who disagrees with them doesn't.

We are back to too many belly-buttons again.

So tell me...if two Christians love God, and obey Him, but disagree....how can we tell who knows what God says and means and who doesn't?

For example, some Christians will say we can never lose our salvation, some say we can.

Some will say we should baptize infants some will say we shouldn't.

We've even already had a difference of opinion in what is meant by "the gates of hell" in Matthew 16.

How can we tell whose is right?

Where can we turn to find the foundation of those truths?

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

No, because many people who call themselves Christian say they do NOT have to obey.


I gave scriptures and you called it a list as if it were a bad thing.

Hey GT,

So this is quite interesting. You read my words to mean that I thought your list of paraphrasing various parts of scripture is a bad thing. To me, it was not a bad thing but merely an honest observation I made.

We cannot even understand what each other means in a simple dialogue.

Yet we think we are going to pick up a Bible which was written over thousands of years, by multiple authors, in different languages, in different genres...we are gonna pick that up and just know what it means because the Holy Spirit will guide us.

But Christians do not agree on what the Bible says. Is the Holy Spirit not going His job well enough?

Or maybe Jesus left a different way for us to understand, perhaps?

I know what the Catholic denomination teaches.

The list you made in an earlier post demonstrates that you have many misconceptions of what the Catholic Church teaches. Much of what you stated isn't even true.

But we'd have to tackle that one topic at a time.

Your mere denial is what does not mean anything.

I agree. My denial does not prove anything about the truth or falsehood of your concerns. And, like I said before, neither does creating that list of supposed disobediences.

Those would have to be examined one at a time.

No, I quoted scriptures and gave references.

No, you paraphrased scriptures from various different parts of the Bible.

Just creating a list of paraphrased scripture verses does not prove that the Catholic Church is in error.

That remains to be seen.

I will be patient. I hope that you have noticed that I have been taking my time to explain and give scriptures to you already. I have to go for now but I hope we can keep discussing.

Good. 'Cause I gotta go too. I will try to be on later tonight as well.

Thank you, it means so much to me that you said that. Most people do not even have any empathy towards another to say that. My mom died when I was 24, and my dad died a couple years after that.

I was still a Catholic at that time and I wish I knew what I know now.

Peace to you.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Hell is where spirits of many people go.

Jesus is the Church.

Jesus is the Head of the Church. Christians are His body. He isn't the whole Church.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

What does Paul mean...."what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions"?

What was lacking?

 

[Robert Pate]

Shame on you, Robert. That is a lie.



Shame on you again, Robert. Catholics don't do that.

Of course they do. Catholicism is man's effort to becoming pleasing to God by the works of the law. A work of the law is any religious thing that one might do.

Listen to what Paul says, "Therefore by the deeds of the law (religion) there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.