Why Calvinist, Catholics, Others, Do NOT Have Saving Faith

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The Catholic church and its people do not obey God.

God says don't call your brothers in Christ 'father'; pray only to God; worship only God; Jesus is the one who mediates; do not make statues and bow to them; do not say you follow a mere man.

Those are many of the things Catholics do not obey.

Catholics call their brothers in Christ 'father'; they pray to Mary and other "Saints"; they bow to the pope; they use Mary as a mediator; they say they follow Peter; they bow to statues and incense them...

Hey GT,

So I think what you are saying is that those who do not join a group (or at least the Catholic Church, in this case) are being more obedient to God because they do not do any of those things that you object to.

Ok, fair enough.

That is quite a list of disobedience. If it really is disobedience.

I think merely creating a list of what you believe to be disobedient acts doesn't prove that they are, though. Or that you understand what the Catholic Church teaches about those things, either.

It really doesn't prove anything about the truth or falsehood of those things. It just makes a list.

Each of those topics you brought up would have to be discussed one at a time to see if it is really disobedience or not.

I do not want to derail Robert's original post and go off on a tangent.

But I am willing to discuss those topics with you. But one at a time.

But I do not frequent this site often and I know there are rules for etiquette, etc.

Are we supposed to start a different thread for a topic or perhaps you would like to PM me and we discuss it that way?

I am willing to talk with you, but we can't cover all of those topics at once.

Let me know what you think.

(Oh, and just so you know, I don't believe anything that you listed entails disobedience to God).

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Bard_the_Bowman,

Did you miss this post?

No. Just slow.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I included them.

My point is that ANYONE who does not obey is not saved.



Again, you did not read what I said. I included EVERYONE. I included those in denominations, non denominational, and even people who never join any group.

The only way to get saved and to stay saved is by obeying Jesus' teachings.



God says do not call your brothers in Christ 'father', and many others things I posted for you.

Hey GT,

My bad for not reading more carefully.

Sorry about that.

 

[God's Truth]

No. Just slow.

No, don't say that. ha

 

[God's Truth]

Hey GT,

So I think what you are saying is that those who do not join a group (or at least the Catholic Church, in this case) are being more obedient to God because they do not do any of those things that you object to.

No, I am saying that all denominations teach some falseness, some more than others; and, even those who never join any group, they do not necessarily have the truth, unless they are obeying Jesus.

Ok, fair enough.

That is quite a list of disobedience. If it really is disobedience.

Not obeying God is disobedience.

I think merely creating a list of what you believe to be disobedient acts doesn't prove that they are, though. Or that you understand what the Catholic Church teaches about those things, either.

It is not what I say it is what God says.

Those who are disobedient make all kinds of excuses why they are disobedient.

I was raised strict Catholic and the Catholics are experts on making excuses for not obeying. Not that they are maliciously doing that, mind you.

It really doesn't prove anything about the truth or falsehood of those things. It just makes a list.

What you downgrade to calling God’s written Word a list, does not make it any less true. In fact, you defaming the written Word by calling it a list is more proof that Catholics make excuses why not to obey. In this case it is you calling it a ‘list’.

Each of those topics you brought up would have to be discussed one at a time to see if it is really disobedience or not.

I know all too well about the excuses the Catholics give for not obeying.

I do not want to derail Robert's original post and go off on a tangent.

Well, this thread is about Catholics and about being saved.

But I am willing to discuss those topics with you. But one at a time.

I would like that.

But I do not frequent this site often and I know there are rules for etiquette, etc.

Are we supposed to start a different thread for a topic or perhaps you would like to PM me and we discuss it that way?

I am willing to talk with you, but we can't cover all of those topics at once.

Let me know what you think.

Let’s discuss it publicly. Would you like to start the thread?

I am really excited about talking to you about this in detail. I was raised Catholic and my mom and dad died as Catholics. The Catholic denomination has a very personal interest for me.

 

[fishrovmen]

Robert does have a tendency to misrepresent the teachings of the Catholic Church.

To me, that makes what he says about Calvinism and other topics untrustworthy.

Exactly! It is deliberate and willing false witness, having been corrected too many times to mention over the course of many years. Accumulating post counts trumps the many warnings in Scripture about the fate of habitual liars. Truly sad.

 

[Robert Pate]

You should read Hebrews 4:11, Robert.

The very next verse says "Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience."

People are in danger of falling through their disobedience.

My Bible says, "The same example of unbelief" which could also mean being disobedient to the Gospel.

 

[jsanford108]

Just because someone believes that Jesus is the Christ, does not mean that they have saving faith.

The reason that we have peace with God is because we are now living by faith.

Saving faith is always faith in the work and the person of Jesus Christ.

Faith in any other thing than Jesus and his Gospel is not saving faith.

You use the connotations for "faith", but the strict denotations for "believe." I know you use the phrase "believe in Christ," which translates to "faith in Christ."

You claim that Calvinists and Catholics "believe" in Christ (strict denotation), yet lack "faith" (strict connotation). Yet argue "faith" in Christ (looser connotation) is the only requirement for heaven.

You interchange terms, depending on the post. Yet in your OP here, alienate two denominations by strict application of slant terminology. Essentially, creating a logical misapplication and excommunication.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Robert Pate]

You use the connotations for "faith", but the strict denotations for "believe." I know you use the phrase "believe in Christ," which translates to "faith in Christ."

You claim that Calvinists and Catholics "believe" in Christ (strict denotation), yet lack "faith" (strict connotation). Yet argue "faith" in Christ (looser connotation) is the only requirement for heaven.

You interchange terms, depending on the post. Yet in your OP here, alienate two denominations by strict application of slant terminology. Essentially, creating a logical misapplication and excommunication.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

You can believe that Jesus is the Christ and go straight to hell. I never said that Calvinist or Catholics believe in Christ. If they did believe in Christ they would not need their religion. They believe that there is a Christ, but they do not believe that Christ is able to save them from their sins, if they did they would not need their religion.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

My Bible says, "The same example of unbelief" which could also mean being disobedient to the Gospel.

It also says "...labour, therefore, to enter into that rest...". What would that labor be, do you think?

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

You can believe that Jesus is the Christ and go straight to hell. I never said that Calvinist or Catholics believe in Christ. If they did believe in Christ they would not need their religion. They believe that there is a Christ,

....don't do it, Robert.....

but they do not believe that Christ is able to save them from their sins,

...Dang! You did it again! You stated the exact opposite of what the Catholic Church teaches!

"The name 'Jesus' signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation, so that 'there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 432)

if they did they would not need their religion.

I know that the actual teachings of the Catholic Church do not fit into your made-up definitions of religion and such. But that is because you are making things up as you go.

Feel free to disagree with others, Robert. Lots of people disagree with others.

But at least have the honesty and decency to disagree with what others actually believe.

Not what you mistakenly think they believe.

Peace.

 

[Robert Pate]

It also says "...labour, therefore, to enter into that rest...". What would that labor be, do you think?

It means to persevere as a Christian. The work of salvation has already been done by Jesus Christ. We now stand complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

 

[Robert Pate]

....don't do it, Robert.....



...Dang! You did it again! You stated the exact opposite of what the Catholic Church teaches!

"The name 'Jesus' signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation, so that 'there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 432)




I know that the actual teachings of the Catholic Church do not fit into your made-up definitions of religion and such. But that is because you are making things up as you go.

Feel free to disagree with others, Robert. Lots of people disagree with others.

But at least have the honesty and decency to disagree with what others actually believe.

Not what you mistakenly think they believe.

Peace.

Catholicism is an effort to becoming pleasing to God by the works of the law, Romans 3:20.

You can eat wafers and drink grape juice until the cows come home. That will never make you like Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

It means to persevere as a Christian. The work of salvation has already been done by Jesus Christ. We now stand complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

The work is NOT we do not have to.

 

[God's Truth]

Catholicism is an effort to becoming pleasing to God by the works of the law, Romans 3:20.

You can eat wafers and drink grape juice until the cows come home. That will never make you like Jesus.

You do not say anything true.

The Catholics make up works for people to do, things that have to do with things God hates.

 

[Robert Pate]

The work is NOT we do not have to.

Your problem is that you do not believe... "That it is finished".

You are not trusting in Christ. You are trusting in yourself.

 

[Robert Pate]

You do not say anything true.

The Catholics make up works for people to do, things that have to do with things God hates.

You and the Catholics are in the same boat. You are trying to be good enough.

 

[God's Truth]

Your problem is that you do not believe... "That it is finished".

You are not trusting in Christ. You are trusting in yourself.

I trust in everything Jesus tells us to do.

I do NOT believe that Jesus came to earth, taught us the Way, and then God nailed all Jesus' words about obeying to the cross.

That is beyond ignorant and insane, see 2 Peter 3:16.

 

[God's Truth]

You and the Catholics are in the same boat. You are trying to be good enough.

No, the Catholics and you are in the same boat with them, for the Catholics say we have to obey but they do not obey, and you say we do not have to obey and do not.

You are a half sibling to the Calvinists, and to the Catholics.

 

[God's Truth]

Robert Pate,

You do not obey, as you say you do not. You are the opposite twin to the Catholic.

The Catholic does not obey, but says we have to.