Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.

[Nathon Detroit]

I see no reason to think that God didn't know what his own creation is capable of doing.

You see no reason??? :sigh: How about God's own words? Isn't that at least some reason.

Even in the open view God can know wether or not people are thinking about burning children to Baal, he doesn't needs to wait before they do it to know they are capable of it. What you seem to be implying here is that God cannot know anything about people before they actually do it

Nope, that isn't what I am saying at all, not even close we are not even on the same page.

God knows everything knowable. And at some point prior to people burning their children to Baal God knew men's intentions and knew this was a possibility, and then closer to these types of events He even knew these things were indeed going to happen because He knows men's intentions and all the other variables that lead up to these types of things. Yet at some point in the past way before all of that (maybe prior to the fall, maybe prior to creation, I really don't know because God doesn't say) AT SOME POINT IN THE PAST God hadn't imagined such an abomination.

This isn't conjecture. It's God's word, plain and simple no ands, ifs, or buts.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Jeremiah 19:5 “...which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind)

Jeremiah 32:35...nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’

Idiomatic expression of an anthropomorphic rebuke by God. Openists love using narrative passages and ignoring the actual didactic (teaching) passages that clearly contradict their position. They have invented their own hermeneutic.

Moreover, openists claim God knows all possibilities. So, for the sake of argument, if I grant them their wish to take the idiomatic expression above as a wooden literalism, then a larger problem arises. In these two verses we find something that apparently never entered God's mind. So I guess God did not know these possibilities.

:juggle::juggle::juggle::juggle:<o>
</o>

 

[Ktoyou]

God isn’t saying to Jeremiah that He just then realized it. He is saying that when people first started doing it He couldn’t believe it because it was so abominable.

It’s like me telling my son about a past event: Well son, when I was eleven, my best friend punched me in the face. It was so unexpected I didn’t even duck. I never thought Bobby would hit me. It never entered my mind.

Get it?

If God could not have known, then He would be less than omnipotent as a God who would know (Have foreknowledge). I was taught that God was all-powerful beyond human comprehension.

If God could create yet not fully know the result of His creation, then God is like a superman, not at all beyond human comprehension.

 

[Ktoyou]

The greatest difference we find here is a matter of whether one believes in the tenants of the early Church. It seems amiss to say that this was not the Roman Church as it was from Constantine were we find these terms so often mentioned. As I posted, these Ecumenical Counsels were under the Church, not any church, but the Roman Church. After the Reformation, not all that the Church held as Christian Canon was overturned.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Idiomatic expression of an anthropomorphic rebuke by God. Openists love using narrative passages and ignoring the actual didactic (teaching) passages that clearly contradict their position. They have invented their own hermeneutic.

Moreover, openists claim God knows all possibilities. So, for the sake of argument, if I grant them their wish to take the idiomatic expression above as a wooden literalism, then a larger problem arises. In these two verses we find something that apparently never entered God's mind. So I guess God did not know these possibilities.

Take five seconds and read the posts that have been made. Many of these topics have already been discussed.

Furthermore... if Jeremiah 19:5 and Jeremiah 32:35 are anthropomorphic or figures of speech what do these figures of speech mean??? Anthropomorpisms and figures of speech are intended to make the text more easily understood not less easily understood (I realize thats devastating for a man so fond of obfuscation such as yourself).

In other words... figures of speech don't mean the opposite, they mean the same except in more simple or different terms perhaps.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If God could not have known, then He would be less than omnipotent as a God who would know (Have foreknowledge). I was taught that God was all-powerful beyond human comprehension.

If God could create yet not fully know the result of His creation, then God is like a superman, not at all beyond human comprehension.

That isn't a picture of the God of the Bible. God didn't want to settle the future in advance. God gave His creation freedom. Our fates are not pre-determined, every man has room for repentance.

God chose to create that way because with freedom we can have an actual two way relationship with God.

 

[Ktoyou]

That isn't a picture of the God of the Bible. God didn't want to settle the future in advance. God gave His creation freedom. Our fates are not pre-determined, every man has room for repentance.

God chose to create that way because with freedom we can have an actual two way relationship with God.

Then my question to you would be:

“Is it possible for humans to have freedom if God has perfect foreknowledge?”

 

[Varangian]

:sigh:

Read this post over and over and over. Don't stop reading it until you get it. When you finally get it report back to us. If you don't get it please stop posting in this thread and may God have mercy on your soul because you are an idiot.

I read Lion's post and it's completely irrelevant to what the passage actually says. Quoted in full:

God isn’t saying to Jeremiah that He just then realized it. He is saying that when people first started doing it He couldn’t believe it because it was so abominable.

It’s like me telling my son about a past event: Well son, when I was eleven, my best friend punched me in the face. It was so unexpected I didn’t even duck. I never thought Bobby would hit me. It never entered my mind.

His example is irrelevant because the Biblical texts states that it HAD entered into his mind at least two full generation prior to the first time any Israelite actually worshipped a Canaanite god to the point where, through Moses, he issued specific commands forbidding it. This was a command issued to what were the grandparents of the Israelites who would first commit such an act. Seeing something coming at least 2 generations in advance is hardly equivalent to being surprised by a friend punching you in the nose.

 

[Newman]

Then my question to you would be:

“Is it possible for humans to have freedom if God has perfect foreknowledge?”

You and Knight are getting off topic, I think.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Then my question to you would be:

“Is it possible for humans to have freedom if God has perfect foreknowledge?”

No.

And that question has been discussed a billion times here on TOL. You may be interested in this:

Interaction with perfect foreknowledge

Part one
Part two
Part three

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Lets try to get back on track. In an effort to do so lets have AMR and all the objectors respond to Sozo's post here.

 

[Ktoyou]

Knight

I do believe that God has perfect foreknowledge and would like to discuss this. I think AMR has a take on this and has explained it here and here. (Of course my here is not linked, as I do not know how to do that)

I think it is tangential to the topic, but related if one contends that Jesus is eternal, that is, without creation, at least His Divinity. Then we may assume that Jesus has always known about His coming in the flesh.

Those threads being old, I think it might be prudent if I were able to engage with AMR on this topic, perhaps on a new thread.
Kat

 

[CRASH]

Jesus is still part of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit and the Father are the other parts of the Godhead. The Holy Spirit saw Nathaniel and conveyed it to Jesus.

Thats exactly what I thought when AMR went off assuming and extrapolating!
The answers can be so simple but the scales of religion on the eyes can be so blinding!

 

[Ktoyou]

“When you are born in this world what identifies you as a man? Your body, soul, and spirit?”

all these make the man (person)
“ If the body is destroyed do you cease being a man?”

At death one ceases to be a man or woman because the body is no longer present


“ Are those who are absent from the body and present with the Lord, void of their identity?”

No they have a spiritual identity

“ Since you believe that Jesus is "fully man", does He have a soul that did not exist before He was born?”

question is a bit disorganized, but I will say Jesus has always had an eternal soul, or spirit

“When Jesus died on the cross, was He still "fully man"? “

personally, I would say yes, but from theology He was man and God

“Was He still "fully man" when His body laid in the tomb? Is He still "fully man" as He sits in heaven?”

No

 

[CRASH]

Yes, it much too long to post here. So why not just give a quick answer?

:rotfl::chuckle:

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

When you are born in this world what identifies you as a man? Your body, soul, and spirit?

I have a post completed and ready to post for your questions, but before I waste everyone's time, I just want to make sure I am understanding your properly.

Are you asking what identifies a male human? I don't think this is what you mean.

Or, are you asking what identifies an individual? I have assumed this is your meaning.

If I am wrong, please elaborate on what you mean "as a man". Thanks.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Furthermore... if Jeremiah 19:5 and Jeremiah 32:35 are anthropomorphic or figures of speech what do these figures of speech mean???

As I clearly stated, it was a rebuke.

When God said their behavior did not come into His mind, it was not a declarative sentence.

For example, when someone says, "I never thought you would do such a thing!", it usually means an expression outrage at the actions of another and has nothing to do with knowledge.

Another example, a man pushes his way past an old lady to get to the head of a line. The old lady, exclaims, "Well..I never!"

Outrage! Scandal! That is what the passage referring to something not entering God's mind means. Nothing more.


Moreover, another problem with your interpretation is that it means that not only does God know the future, but He apparently is forgetful. God had warned Israel about this specific act in Deuteronomy 12:31, a few hundred years earlier.

 

[Sozo]

I have a post completed and ready to post for your questions, but before I waste everyone's time, I just want to make sure I am understanding your properly.

Are you asking what identifies a male human? I don't think this is what you mean.

Or, are you asking what identifies an individual? I have assumed this is your meaning.

If I am wrong, please elaborate on what you mean "as a man". Thanks.

Actually, that is what I am hoping that you will do, since you say that Jesus is "fully man". In your mind, what do you think makes a man a man, as opposed to being God?

Does Jesus have a soul? In other words, does he have an identity as a man, that you have, since you say that He is "fully man".

These are simple questions, that have the Bible as a source to gather the answers, so I really don't want some religious philosophy constructed at some council by a bunch of men who never knew God in the first place.

I look forward to your answers to all the questions posed.

 

[Mr. 5020]

:noway:

 

[Sozo]

“When you are born in this world what identifies you as a man? Your body, soul, and spirit?”

all these make the man (person)
“ If the body is destroyed do you cease being a man?”

At death one ceases to be a man or woman because the body is no longer present


“ Are those who are absent from the body and present with the Lord, void of their identity?”

No they have a spiritual identity

“ Since you believe that Jesus is "fully man", does He have a soul that did not exist before He was born?”

question is a bit disorganized, but I will say Jesus has always had an eternal soul, or spirit

“When Jesus died on the cross, was He still "fully man"? “

personally, I would say yes, but from theology He was man and God

“Was He still "fully man" when His body laid in the tomb? Is He still "fully man" as He sits in heaven?”

No

Based on the two highlighted answers, what happen to the "fully" man?