Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.

[Lion]

We can find verses that show that Jesus is God and verses that show He is man. He IS God manifest in the flesh, the God-Man, one person with two natures.

Is that really you, sozo?:noway:

Wait... what is the man nature?

Do you mean sin nature? Because Christ didn't have that. If you mean anything else, please prove there is such a thing. I see no scripture to support that Adam's nature was in any way different than God's nature. It was God's Spirit that was breathed into him. It wasn't until Adam sinned that the flesh (or a propensity to sin) took over.

So Jesus had the same type of nature that Adam had before the fall, the only difference is that Jesus had it much harder than Adam because sin was everywhere around Him. But still He chose to stay holy.

 

[Lion]

Mr. Religion said;

Nevertheless, do you believe that the Second Person of the Trinity was limited in His presence to the geographical location of the body of Jesus during the Incarnation?

No, His soul was in Hell proclaiming victory against the fallen angels and their evil plans, during the three days His body was in the grave.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Hmm.... I don't think anyone here will say God makes mistakes. He is wrong sometimes, because of hope and love, and the fact that He's working with knuckleheads like us. But that doesn't mean He makes mistakes.

'Wrong' does not equal 'mistake'? Huh?

Next time you 'take a chance' and are wrong at work, try telling your boss that you were not mistaken. And good luck with that.:bang:

 

[Newman]

Mr. Religion said; No, His soul was in Hell proclaiming victory against the fallen angels and their evil plans, during the three days His body was in the grave.

body:soul::human:divine::flesh:spirit::Man:God

It seems you do have a hypostatic union idea of Jesus...
Am I wrong?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Mr. Religion said; No, His soul was in Hell proclaiming victory against the fallen angels and their evil plans, during the three days His body was in the grave.

Not what I asked. I am speaking of the time during the earthly ministry of Christ. Was the Second Person of the Trinity limited geographically to the physical presence of Our Lord while He walked about Palestine?

 

[Lion]

Please read this post very carefully. It answers your specific questions. Thank you.

Okayyyyy….but it didn’t.

My question was why didn’t Jesus know who had touched Him?

 

[Lion]

'Wrong' does not equal 'mistake'? Huh?

Next time you 'take a chance' and are wrong at work, try telling your boss that you were not mistaken. And good luck with that.:bang:

Oh funny play on words. Making a mistake assumes that the person doing the thing is responsible for the bad outcome of the action even though it wasn't the intended outcome.

It is never God's fault when we mess things up. He does things because of hope and love.

I tell my son not to take drugs. I teach him correctly as best I can all his life. I don't do drugs. I don't allow anyone around our house who does drugs. I home school him. I teach him the dangers of drugs and how they could destroy his life and even kill him. When he turns twenty and is on his own I let him move out and go on his own, hoping he will adhere to the training I have given him. If he doesn't and tries some heroin at a party and dies.

Did I make a mistake? No. I did everything I could and hoped he would make the correct choices. I thought he would choose correctly but he didn't. I was wrong, but I did not make a mistake.

Does that help?

Of course not. Because in your view God made him take the drugs and die anyway, didn't He?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Okayyyyy….but it didn’t.

My question was why didn’t Jesus know who had touched Him?

Christ's humanity is in view in the passage in question.

The entire discussion in the post I recommended to you related to Matthew 24:36 or Mark 13:32 directly applies to your question. I don't want to post the whole thing here. See also related post and discussions there around it here.

 

[Lion]

body:soul::human:divine::flesh:spirit::Man:God

It seems you do have a hypostatic union idea of Jesus...
Am I wrong?

No. The body has no nature. It has a Spirit/Soul. When we die, the Spirit/Soul departs and goes to Heaven or Hell. Jesus' soul went to hell for three days, then returned to His body and brought it back to life. Hence the resurrection.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Oh funny play on words. Making a mistake assumes that the person doing the thing is responsible for the bad outcome of the action even though it wasn't the intended outcome.

It is never God's fault when we mess things up. He does things because of hope and love.

I tell my son not to take drugs. I teach him correctly as best I can all his life. I don't do drugs. I don't allow anyone around our house who does drugs. I home school him. I teach him the dangers of drugs and how they could destroy his life and even kill him. When he turns twenty and is on his own I let him move out and go on his own, hoping he will adhere to the training I have given him. If he doesn't and tries some heroin at a party and dies.

Did I make a mistake? No. I did everything I could and hoped he would make the correct choices. I thought he would choose correctly but he didn't. I was wrong, but I did not make a mistake.

Does that help?

Of course not. Because in your view God made him take the drugs and die anyway, didn't He?

AMR makes the exact same mistake on this issue as Traditio (TOL's Catholic punching bag). Excellent response Lion, I have given similar ones on TOL but I like yours even better. :up:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Christ's humanity is in view in the passage in question.

The entire discussion in the post I recommended to you related to Matthew 24:36 or Mark 13:32 directly applies to your question. I don't want to post the whole thing here. See also related post and discussions there around it here.

:sozo: Just answer the question!

And take your own advice and don't use any "weasel wording".

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Making a mistake assumes that the person doing the thing is responsible for the bad outcome of the action even though it wasn't the intended outcome.

You are twisting in the wind on this point and it shows. Now you say God is somehow 'not responsible'. We can nuance things to make them palatable, but in the cold light of reason it is clear that getting things wrong is a mistake. You know this. We all know this. Give it up and let's move on.

 

[Lion]

My bad. Do you think that God can die and still be God?

Yes. Can an angel die and still be an angel? Yes, although they are fallen angels. They are spirit beings also.

Christ was separated from God the Father, but He was pure and doing His Father's will. He was apart from Him, but still Him. His personality was still and forevermore will be Jesus Christ, God the Son, the Son of God.

 

[Lion]

Christ's humanity is in view in the passage in question.

The entire discussion in the post I recommended to you related to Matthew 24:36 or Mark 13:32 directly applies to your question. I don't want to post the whole thing here. See also related post and discussions there around it here.

Yes, it much too long to post here. So why not just give a quick answer?

 

[Evoken]

I don't think anyone here will say God makes mistakes. He is wrong sometimes...

He doesn't makes mistakes but is wrong sometimes...well...

As I said previously, even if you say that God takes chances or risks that sometime fail. Failed risks are quite simply...mistakes.

Some may want to put the blame only on us for the failure of God's plan but I don't see how that can hold up. For if God provides a plan thinking that it will succeed, it shows that he devised the plan based on what he thought we would accept or do, yet was wrong and the plan failed. If it did, either God's plan was not good enough to convince people or he didn't take into account some other factor that made the plan fail. Granted, humans are stubborn but doesn't God understands enough his stubborn creation to come up with something that convinces it and make it follow him freely, which is after all what he truly wants?


Evo

 

[Lion]

You are twisting in the wind on this point and it shows. Now you say God is somehow 'not responsible'. We can nuance things to make them palatable, but in the cold light of reason it is clear that getting things wrong is a mistake. You know this. We all know this. Give it up and let's move on.

Really? Well let me ask you, from your view point of God being responsible for everything, then how is God not wrong when we sin?

Never mind... I know the statuesque gobbly-gook of Calvinists... God makes it happen but we are still responsible... kind of like the two natures of Christ.

But wait, why not actually try and prove your point here for once? Why not take my example of my son on drugs and tell me, did I make a mistake, or was I just wrong, or is it both as you try and imply?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

He doesn't makes mistakes but is wrong sometimes...well...

As I said previously, even if you say that God takes chances or risks that sometime fail. Failed risks are quite simply...mistakes.

:sigh: Did you read Lion's response to that?

The answer is so painfully obvious but you close your eyes to it. Is your theology so weak that a concession of any kind is too threatening?

 

[Lion]

He doesn't makes mistakes but is wrong sometimes...well...

As I said previously, even if you say that God takes chances or risks that sometime fail. Failed risks are quite simply...mistakes.

Some may want to put the blame only on us for the failure of God's plan but I don't see how that can hold up. For if God provides a plan thinking that it will succeed, it shows that he devised the plan based on what he thought we would accept or do, yet was wrong and the plan failed. If it did, either God's plan was not good enough to convince people or he didn't take into account some other factor that made the plan fail. Granted, humans are stubborn but doesn't God understands enough his stubborn creation to come up with something that convinces it and make it follow him freely, which is after all what he truly wants?


Evo

God tells the Israelites that He planted them, watered them, nurtured them, did everything He could for them and He expected good grapes to come forth. But instead bad grapes grew. God then said, “What more could I have done?” He is taking away the argument you just used, Evo. He is saying the fault does not lie with His failed plan but with the stubbornness of the Israelites.

So instead of listening to creeds and false doctrines, listen to God’s own words.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

AMR, Evoken....

God said that at some point in the past it had never entered His mind that people would be burning their children to Baal. Yet, later that is in fact what happened.

Jeremiah 19:5 “(they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

Jeremiah 32:35 ‘And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’ ​

According to you this must mean God made a mistake. :dizzy:

THE TRUTH IS....
While God was wrong in thinking such a thing would never happen it wasn't a mistake on His part, instead it was another example of man's ability to use our will to do the unthinkable.

 

[Lion]

AMR, Evoken....

God said that at some point in the past it had never entered His mind that people would be burning their children to Baal. Yet, later that is in fact what happened.

Jeremiah 19:5 “(they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),

Jeremiah 32:35 ‘And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’ ​

According to you this must mean God made a mistake. :dizzy:

THE TRUTH IS....
While God was wrong in thinking such a thing would never happen it wasn't a mistake on His part, instead it was another example of man's ability to use our will to do the unthinkable.

Awesome!:jump: :thumb: :drum: