What is the express image of God?

StanJ

New member
That the 'logos' was 'a' god, is a possible translation of John1:1, or simply that the logos was 'divine', being of the nature of 'God', since the 'logos' has no other source but 'God', as everything else that is 'generated' from 'God'

This has been clearly established to NOT be factual and a deliberate erroneous translation of the Greek for eisegetical reasons.

You can read the correct translation from the Greek in the following link;

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1:1&version=MOUNCE
 

keypurr

Well-known member
The Young's Literal Bible Translation has already been posted in this thread and it totally refutes your version and your understanding:



Isaiah 9:6 YLT

6. For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.




The Princely Power, (of the empire, "ha-misrah") was upon the shoulder of the man Yeshua and the man Yeshua calls His Name: "Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace."



But besides this and all of the other things that have already been shown and discussed in this thread the primary error in what you have said is that you make a worse mistake than Moses did, (and he only made one mistake which he paid dearly for). How then will you escape the Judgement that comes with not giving the Father the glory? You will certainly NEVER enter "the Land" if you do not repent and give the Father the glory. Moses was kept from leading the people into the Land for the same reason, (but he entered the Land afterwards because we see him in the Land when he appears with Elijah, and they with Yeshua, in the holy mount at the transfiguration event). When you make Yeshua equal to the Father you ignore just about everything written in the Torah and Tanach before he came. He did not do what you do and neither did he ever ask or command anyone to bow down and worship himself: you do that of your own accord, and it is essentially a works and rewards based form of religion no different than the heathen nations of old, turning a man into your god. You have not only the one great "work" which you did when you prayed the so-called "sinners prayer" and decided for yourself on which day and in what hour you would be "saved" by your prayer, (which in itself is heretical and preposterous, as if you get to decide when and where you will be "saved" by doing your one great work and "giving yourself to God") but likewise you elevate a man to Godhead equality status so that you can essentially replace the Father with the man Yeshua. You may say that you do not do this but that is invariably always the result when you make yourself two equal masters: the man will always choose the one he prefers over the other, and he will love the one and hate the other, for a man cannot serve two masters, and this is the direct Testimony of Yeshua himself. Your second great "work" is your reward to Yeshua for "saving" you and that is your worship of him, as God Almighty, as a reward for supposedly taking all of your punishment which you apparently assume allows you to continue in your sins. For the same reason this is why the Trinitarian view has become so critically important to mainstream Christianity; for if one does not agree with your atonement theology and worship Jesus as God Almighty, so as to reward him for "saving" the individual, then the same cannot be "saved" because he or she completely disrupts and violates your pagan reward system.



Isaiah 45:1-13

1. Thus says YHWH to his Mashiyach-Christos, to Kyros, [Septuagint Kyros-Kuros-Kyrios-Kurios] whose right hand I have taken, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates, and the gates shall not be shut:

2. I will go before you, and make the crooked places straight; I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

3. And I will give you treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, [Matthew 13:35] that you may know that I am YHWH, He that calls you by your name, Elohey Yisrael.

4. For the sake of Yacob My servant, and Yisrael My chosen one, I have even called you by your name: I have surnamed you, [Elohey Yisrael] though you have not known Me.

5. I am YHWH, there is no other, there is no Elohim but Me: I gird you, though you have not known Me.

6. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me. I am YHWH, and there is none else:

7. I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I, YHWH, do all these things.

8. Drop down you heavens from above, and let the skies pour down tsedek-righteousness; let the earth open up, and let it bring forth the fruits of yesha-deliverance, and let tsdaqah-righteousness tsamach-sprout-shoots united: I YHWH did cut him down.

9. Woe unto him that strives with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashions it, What are you making? or, Your work has no handles?

10. Woe unto him that says unto his Father, What begettest you? or to the woman, What have you brought forth?

11. Thus says YHWH, the Holy One of Yisrael and his Maker, Of things to come inquire you concerning My sons? and concerning the work of My hands command you Me?

12. I make the earth, and a man cut down upon it: I, even My hands, stretch out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

13. I raise him up in tsdaqah-righteousness, and all his ways shall be straight: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, says YHWH Tsabaoth.




You fail to give the glory to the Father, just as Moses did in Numbers 20:10, but instead you make it twofold worse by replacing the Father with His Own Right Arm which He sent to you with the good news gospel and message of the kingdom. Therefore in your view no one may be "saved" unless they do as you do and begin rewarding your god with complete adoration and worship. However Yeshua never demanded worship from you or anyone else and the scripture clearly states that he was not ashamed to call those willing to become sanctified his BRETHREN. You therefore destroy the logic in every logical analogy and allegory that is given in the scripture because you replace the Father with the Son and worship him who says he is our brother: you worship the leader of the worship service while he and all his brethren worship the Father in spirit and in truth.



:sheep:


Excellent post my friend.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
A biblical Unitarian View............

A biblical Unitarian View............

This has been clearly established to NOT be factual and a deliberate erroneous translation of the Greek for eisegetical reasons.

You can read the correct translation from the Greek in the following link;

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1:1&version=MOUNCE

Continuing from my previous commentary and video-presentation here on Is. 9:6, we continue to John 1:1, - just as you 'assume' that JWs (and other translators might have 'eisegetical reasons') for referring to the 'logos' as 'divine' or being 'a god')...it is still a possible translation within the context of the passage, and the greater cultural context in general,...since 'logos' has many different meanings and implications (which are not limited to personal implications, but principles, purpose and creative design). NOTE that Trinitarian bias and presuppositions MAY influence the translation of passages as well (as we see in many bible translations, whose boards consist of mostly Trinitarians),....not just Unitarian predispositions. However,...intellectual honesty coupled with spiritual wisdom, discretion and discernment leads us to consider all passages in the totality of all possible and probable interpretations....no matter what personal bias we have... or theology we personally favor.

John Schoenheit continues a general biblical Unitarian view of John 1:1, from which subtle variances may ensue, but the basics and plenty of food for thought are presented -

John 1:1 (Part 1)


John 1:1 (Part 2)


Jesus in this view, keeps his integrity, position, power and exaltation of being the Son of God, His Anointed Agent....as the Son of Man, empowered by the Spirit, revealing 'God', expressing 'God', speaking for 'God', representing 'God'. This is all that is essential to intuit or recognize, when we consider the person of Jesus and all other aspects of his service as the 'Messiah', for Jesus as this 'image' (and all that it means and reveals) is what is at the heart of the 'Christ-message', and the 'Christ-story' which unfolds to us the divine working of the Spirit in Man, embodied most perfectly in the man Jesus. Yes, the MAN. - note: this takes no divinity or Christhood away from Jesus, since Jesus is the AGENT of God, revealing 'God'.

Even beyond all Unitarian-Trinitarian descrepancies,....'Jesus' is just an 'idea', 'image', 'personality', 'conception' of 'God' anyways. 'Jesus' does not exist anywhere but in your own imagination, consciousness, awareness...that is it. Nowhere else, even if he appeared to you physically,...there is still the illusion and distortion of 'perception' in the realm of 'appearances' that are not absolute. You can assume or believe you will meet a person named 'Jesus' when you die, or if he were to physically appear in his so called 'second coming', but how would you know it was him? You have nothing to go on, except your own belief, idea, concept or imagination, beyond whatever else you might feel or what might come to you as 'revelation'. Back to the good ole measuring rod of 'subjectivity' ;) - because all that exists is consciousness,...toss in a 'god-concept' if you like....life goes on regardless.

In any case,...amid various interpretations within both Unitarian or Trinitarian schools,...I see valid points, logics and reason within aspects of both schools (varying),....so the greater spiritual truth or religious reality is really in who and what Jesus REPRESENTS, in spirit and truth, in meaning and value.



pj
 

StanJ

New member
How would you know? You do not show excellence.

singing-parrot-smiley-emoticon.gif
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Jesus, Son of Man/Son of God.......

Jesus, Son of Man/Son of God.......

I actually KNOW freelight, and please, stop polluting this thread with Uni doctrine. Point to the video if you want.

Again, such is a matter of 'interpretation' and as shared, there is much scriptural, traditional and philosophical support for a Unitarian view of things, just like those of other schools can find passages to support their concepts. The 3 videos and other resources on that particular resource (biblical Unitarianism) are good for starters, - we might also add that not all Unitarians are 'Arians' by formal definition, since there are some differences within the Christology of some Unitarian schools as far as Jesus human and divine nature(s).

The compound term 'Unit-arian' that I coined some time back (and any are welcome to see if anyone else coined it before I introduced it here, if archives go back that far) is more of a 'code-name' indicating that arians are by definition (in some respects) Unitarians, since they differentiate God from Christ, Jesus being the anointed agent of God. Again,....this is all that is essential...that Jesus is the REVEALER of 'God'....and by his way, teaching-word and example, we too can be 'perfect' as our Father in Heaven is 'perfect' (in love),...the 'God' whom he called jointly with us as "Our Father". In this sense Jesus included himself as one ascending to 'Our Universal Father'....remember, he said "my father and your father, my God and your God". Such speaks of One Universal Fatherhood of God, such a 'God' being the First Source and Center of all sentient beings.

Since Keypurr is categorized as a 'Unitarian' of sorts,....I'm sure hes happy to have my philosophical input on the subject, as it is ON TOPIC. All that proceeds forth from The Universal One (The Source), is 'imaged' (creatively formed) out from that Infinite Intelligence, hence Jesus even if identified as some eternal creative logos is still referred to as the 'express image of God', and rightly so, especially if Jesus is the perfect representation of both 'God' and 'Man', as a whole individual...and he is so as the 'Son of Man' (human prophetic image) and 'Son of God' (divine image prototype).





pj
 

StanJ

New member
Again, such is a matter of 'interpretation' and as shared, there is much scriptural, traditional and philosophical support for a Unitarian view of things, just like those of other schools can find passages to support their concepts. The 3 videos and other resources on that particular resource (biblical Unitarianism) are good for starters, - we might also add that not all Unitarians are 'Arians' by formal definition, since there are some differences within the Christology of some Unitarian schools as far as Jesus human and divine nature(s).

The compound term 'Unit-arian' that I coined some time back (and any are welcome to see if anyone else coined it before I introduced it here, if archives go back that far) is more of a 'code-name' indicating that arians are by definition (in some respects) Unitarians, since they differentiate God from Christ, Jesus being the anointed agent of God. Again,....this is all that is essential...that Jesus is the REVEALER of 'God'....and by his way, teaching-word and example, we too can be 'perfect' as our Father in Heaven is 'perfect' (in love),...the 'God' whom he called jointly with us as "Our Father". In this sense Jesus included himself as one ascending to 'Our Universal Father'....remember, he said "my father and your father, my God and your God". Such speaks of One Universal Fatherhood of God, such a 'God' being the First Source and Center of all sentient beings.

Since Keypurr is categorized as a 'Unitarian' of sorts,....I'm sure hes happy to have my philosophical input on the subject, as it is ON TOPIC. All that proceeds forth from The Universal One (The Source), is 'imaged' (creatively formed) out from that Infinite Intelligence, hence Jesus even if identified as some eternal creative logos is still referred to as the 'express image of God', and rightly so, especially if Jesus is the perfect representation of both 'God' and 'Man', as a whole individual...and he is so as the 'Son of Man' (human prophetic image) and 'Son of God' (divine image prototype).
pj


As you don't know God's word nor know God himself, I can't really take you seriously. IF you have followed this and other threads of it's kind and have not seen the truth of who our God and Savior Jesus Christ IS, then there is not much more I can show you. Keypurr doesn't input, he makes supercilious and condescending comments which SHOW he really doesn't KNOW what he believes. just because there still exist "false teachers" today doesn't mean I have to give them pause for thought. I already KNOW who God is and they that refuse to recognize Him are apostate, so they can NOT possibly show me ANYTHING.
Our basis for belief is God's written word and our allegiance to it. Eisegeting it needs to be dealt with vigorously and succinctly. There is NO room for opinion, our God is factual. Sadly you don't accept or believe that, but this is not a forum for the PC.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
As you don't know God's word nor know God himself, I can't really take you seriously. IF you have followed this and other threads of it's kind and have not seen the truth of who our God and Savior Jesus Christ IS, then there is not much more I can show you. Keypurr doesn't input, he makes supercilious and condescending comments which SHOW he really doesn't KNOW what he believes. just because there still exist "false teachers" today doesn't mean I have to give them pause for thought. I already KNOW who God is and they that refuse to recognize Him are apostate, so they can NOT possibly show me ANYTHING.
Our basis for belief is God's written word and our allegiance to it. Eisegeting it needs to be dealt with vigorously and succinctly. There is NO room for opinion, our God is factual. Sadly you don't accept or believe that, but this is not a forum for the PC.

You stopped learning a long time ago, bad move on your part Stan.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Notes to consider..........

Notes to consider..........

As you don't know God's word nor know God himself, I can't really take you seriously.


Hi Stan,.......that's an assumption on your part, based only on your own partial and biased opinion on what qualifies one to know God or his word. 'God' is the one and only primal reality, from which everything else derives and has an existence. God is All There Is...so how could I not know him, or be separate from the All-ness of 'God'? All there is...is 'God' :) - all is summed up in the self-cognizing statement of "I AM" (my own awareness/existence includes the prior-originating reality of 'God', its source). - as far as what God's word is,...that's subject to interpretation and various religious text-assumptions or other personal opinions depending on what religious cult-ure or tradition you've chosen to affiliate with.

IF you have followed this and other threads of it's kind and have not seen the truth of who our God and Savior Jesus Christ IS, then there is not much more I can show you. Keypurr doesn't input, he makes supercilious and condescending comments which SHOW he really doesn't KNOW what he believes. just because there still exist "false teachers" today doesn't mean I have to give them pause for thought. I already KNOW who God is and they that refuse to recognize Him are apostate, so they can NOT possibly show me ANYTHING.
Our basis for belief is God's written word and our allegiance to it. Eisegeting it needs to be dealt with vigorously and succinctly. There is NO room for opinion, our God is factual. Sadly you don't accept or believe that, but this is not a forum for the PC.

You're stuck in your own limited belief-system and concept-frame, so you really cant LEARN anything new or be in a more malleable place to be flexible or lenient of other points of view, perspectives or insights related to the subject at hand. A locked mind cant be open to new concepts or lend itself to expand consciousness to consider all possible and probable points of view. I think that would be advantageous for you to do, expanding your over-all research and consideration of the subject,....since after all....Jesus is recognized as the "image of the invisible God".....remember...Jesus reveals 'God' to us, and he calls us to be like 'God', to embody his spirit-nature and will, to live in harmony with such. This universal understanding is what is essential here.



pj
 

aikido7

BANNED
Banned
The Bible has scores and scores of differently expressed "images" of God.

He has been called a spring of water, an old woman, an eagle, a potter, a mountain, a storm and many, many other metaphors.

Everyone who is a Christian should see God in everything. After all, it's God that is responsible for all of this. He pronounced it "good" after Creation.
 

StanJ

New member
Hi Stan,.......that's an assumption on your part, based only on your own partial and biased opinion on what qualifies one to know God or his word. 'God' is the one and only primal reality, from which everything else derives and has an existence. God is All There Is...so how could I not know him, or be separate from the All-ness of 'God'? All there is...is 'God' - all is summed up in the self-cognizing statement of "I AM" (my own awareness/existence includes the prior-originating reality of 'God', its source). - as far as what God's word is,...that's subject to interpretation and various religious text-assumptions or other personal opinions depending on what religious cult-ure or tradition you've chosen to affiliate with.

Yes, assumption/deduction based on evidence YOU supply in your own words.
God IS the one and ONLY reality. He tells us so IN His written Word and by His Holy Spirit. He doesn't tell those who want proof or don't believe what IS written. He rewards FAITH, not skepticism.
I choose GOD and all that entails. It's called Christianity today. The Body of Christ. NOT to be confused with any other claims. It IS what it is just as God is I AM.


You're stuck in your own limited belief-system and concept-frame, so you really cant LEARN anything new or be in a more malleable place to be flexible or lenient of other points of view, perspectives or insights related to the subject at hand. A locked mind cant be open to new concepts or lend itself to expand consciousness to consider all possible and probable points of view. I think that would be advantageous for you to do, expanding your over-all research and consideration of the subject,....since after all....Jesus is recognized as the "image of the invisible God".....remember...Jesus reveals 'God' to us, and he calls us to be like 'God', to embody his spirit-nature and will, to live in harmony with such. This universal understanding is what is essential here.

Of course you would like to believe that, as it simply alleviates your own desire for a lack of commitment, and cognitive dissonance.
God has NOT change in the entire time this universe has existed and He never will.
You assume in the 45 plus years I have been a believer, that I have NOT done so, and again you would be wrong. Just as God doesn't change, my ability to perceive His truth has not either. He provides the evidence within my faith EVERY day.
To be Christ like is what He has indeed predestined true believers to be.
Rom 8:28-30 (NIV)
 

Ben Masada

New member
The Bible has scores and scores of differently expressed "images" of God.

He has been called a spring of water, an old woman, an eagle, a potter, a mountain, a storm and many, many other metaphors.

Everyone who is a Christian should see God in everything. After all, it's God that is responsible for all of this. He pronounced it "good" after Creation.

Yes, the Lord indeed pronounced every thing good He had done but, He had to grant man with Freewill and man has overturned this world into chaos. (Eccles. 7:29) Also, by granting man with Freewill, the Lord cannot be charged with the responsibility for the evil done on earth. Man is the one to be blamed for.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Another part of this, explained by R. Cassuto (I think) is that it doesn't matter what the image of God is but the fact that man has it means that there are markers all around the world that the world belongs to God as Creator. This was important in the early scenes of Genesis because the earth was formed out of the chaos of 1:2. When something like this is done and put into shape, there needed to be a marker to the rest of the world of who was in charge. That marker was man, each man.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
The Bible has scores and scores of differently expressed "images" of God.

He has been called a spring of water, an old woman, an eagle, a potter, a mountain, a storm and many, many other metaphors.

Everyone who is a Christian should see God in everything. After all, it's God that is responsible for all of this. He pronounced it "good" after Creation.

There is only one express image of God.

True that there are expressed images of God but that is not the same topic.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Another part of this, explained by R. Cassuto (I think) is that it doesn't matter what the image of God is but the fact that man has it means that there are markers all around the world that the world belongs to God as Creator. This was important in the early scenes of Genesis because the earth was formed out of the chaos of 1:2. When something like this is done and put into shape, there needed to be a marker to the rest of the world of who was in charge. That marker was man, each man.

Man does not have the express image of God. God is a spirit, his express image would also be a spirit. This subject goes very deep, it speaks of a spiritual being that everything was created through. A spiritual being that needed a body prepared for it to become flesh.
 
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