keypurr
Well-known member
Your untitled to your opinion. I see the content on more than one verse to think the way I do. I compare verses with other translations to try to see what they mean. My studies are not as shallow as you think friend.
What is the express image of God?
- Thread starter keypurr
- Start date
Your untitled to your opinion. I see the content on more than one verse to think the way I do. I compare verses with other translations to try to see what they mean. My studies are not as shallow as you think friend.
Me too ... but THAT MAN was God appearing in God's own personal image ... named LORD.
Isaiah 43:11
I (the invisible spiritual God), even I AM the LORD (The One God who appears using his created ONE image named LORD), beside ME (as God and LORD) there is no savior.
keypurr
Well-known member
Of course I agree with this... because:
1.) The Father is the invisible spiritual God who ultimately appeared in the world unto chosen people.
2.) The Christ (who is: the promised lordly Savior of Isaiah 43:11, the Son of God that was to become a son of man, My Lord Jesus the Savior) was also the invisible spiritual God who ultimately appeared in the world unto a chosen generation.
3.) Christ only said and did what the Father would have said and done.
4.) He did the miracles that the Father was able to do and told people, who did not believe what he said, to at least believe the miracles that he did.
5.) He agreed that he should be called Lord and that people should obey him.
6.) He said that he had shared the glorious image belonging to the ONE God with the Father even before the world was.
7.) He claimed that the Father now shared the image he bore in flesh in his day... when he said: If you have SEEN me, then you have SEEN the Father as well.
8.) It was said in John 3:34,35
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not THE SPIRIT by measure unto him. (IOW, he had a full association with the entire SPIRIT of God and only spoke the words of God - Now, how much better can equality to God be described in words?)
35 (Yet more to make it clear) The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
keypurr
Well-known member
You my dear friend are in agreement with me. You seem to understand what I have been trying to express for a year now. Mankind has yet to see the tip of the spirit world. All things I believe were done through spirit beings. But as human we fail to see it for we only believe what we can see. Like Thomas, we must see to accept.
We really do have one God and one Lord as Paul says. Thank God for sending his spiritual son to die for us.
Posted from the TOL App!
I have known for a long time that you and I reasoned in the same way ... I have just been dismayed that you seemed not to believe that our Lord Jesus is God the Christ.
Of course, for discussion sake, I must tweak one comment.
You wrote:
I would say: All things were/are done through the ONE spiritual being known as the ONE God.
Yet, God is able to impart his spirit by measure unto created beings ... but to the Christ it was given without measure.
We (angels and men) are all spirit beings having been given a measure of the Spirit of LIFE who is God.
Yet, God was able to make us as spiritual being to appear within a world he brought into visibility as well. Then he already knew how he was going to come into that realm of visibility to make himself known to those he created and loves.
keypurr
Well-known member
God uses his creations to do his will. I think we agree. Christ was the highest of all creation. Angels, men were all involved in doing his will. Christ was given all power in heaven and earth. No question about that, but it should be noted that he did not have the power until it was given to him. His father, who is also his God, loves him dearly. And to send him to die for us was not easy even for God.
Posted from the TOL App!
FACE TO FACE GODS FACE BEING INVISIBLE
OLD TESTAMENT
Exod 33:20-22
20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
21 And the LORD said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock.
22 "So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
Exod 33:10-11
10 All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door.
11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.
Num 12:6-8
6 Then He said, "Hear now My words: if there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream.
7 Not so with My servant Moses; he is faithful in all My house.
8 I speak with him face to face, even plainly, and not in dark sayings; and he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?"
Num 14:13-14
13 And Moses said to the LORD: "Then the Egyptians will hear it, for by Your might You brought these people up from among them,
14 "and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, LORD, are among these people; that You, LORD, are seen face to face and that Your cloud stands above them; and You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night.
Deut 5:4
4 "The LORD talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire.
Deut 34:10
10 But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
Judg 6:22
22 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the LORD. So Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord GOD! For I have seen the Angel of the LORD face to face."
Ezek 20:35-36
35 "And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face.
36 "Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD.
(NKJ)
NEW TESTAMENT
Heb 1:1-2
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
John 5:37
37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
I Jn 4:12-13
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 6:46
46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
John 14:9-10
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Col 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
1 Tim 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1 Tim 6:12-16
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
John 6:46
46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
(NKJ)
xxxx God is a Spirit, He always has been and always will be. God is invisible always has been. God is neither male nor female, God is a Spirit. So anyone can stand face to face with God and will never see Him. God also carries the title of He, and yet God is neither male nor female. "He" has always been a title of authority the higher authority. Man is not in the reality of the universe. The reality of the universe is in the spiritual realm. We are in the sub realm, not the supernatural realm. Man is the secondary realm of the universe. We will one day be in the supernatural realm. There is a misconception to the verse below.
John 14:9-10
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
If they would read the next verse it will explain the first verse. Jesus knew the Father is invisible, but He also knew that God was working through Him. Jesus said " and the Father in Me? " to many are trying to make a case out of one verse this is shallow and short sighted.
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
(NKJ)
1 Tim 6:13-16
13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
(NKJ)
OLD TESTAMENT
Exod 33:20-22
20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
21 And the LORD said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock.
22 "So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
Exod 33:10-11
10 All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door.
11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.
Num 12:6-8
6 Then He said, "Hear now My words: if there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream.
7 Not so with My servant Moses; he is faithful in all My house.
8 I speak with him face to face, even plainly, and not in dark sayings; and he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?"
Num 14:13-14
13 And Moses said to the LORD: "Then the Egyptians will hear it, for by Your might You brought these people up from among them,
14 "and they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, LORD, are among these people; that You, LORD, are seen face to face and that Your cloud stands above them; and You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night.
Deut 5:4
4 "The LORD talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire.
Deut 34:10
10 But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
Judg 6:22
22 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the LORD. So Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord GOD! For I have seen the Angel of the LORD face to face."
Ezek 20:35-36
35 "And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face.
36 "Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD.
(NKJ)
NEW TESTAMENT
Heb 1:1-2
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
John 5:37
37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
I Jn 4:12-13
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 6:46
46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
John 14:9-10
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Col 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
1 Tim 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1 Tim 6:12-16
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
John 6:46
46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
(NKJ)
xxxx God is a Spirit, He always has been and always will be. God is invisible always has been. God is neither male nor female, God is a Spirit. So anyone can stand face to face with God and will never see Him. God also carries the title of He, and yet God is neither male nor female. "He" has always been a title of authority the higher authority. Man is not in the reality of the universe. The reality of the universe is in the spiritual realm. We are in the sub realm, not the supernatural realm. Man is the secondary realm of the universe. We will one day be in the supernatural realm. There is a misconception to the verse below.
John 14:9-10
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
If they would read the next verse it will explain the first verse. Jesus knew the Father is invisible, but He also knew that God was working through Him. Jesus said " and the Father in Me? " to many are trying to make a case out of one verse this is shallow and short sighted.
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
(NKJ)
1 Tim 6:13-16
13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
(NKJ)
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
How could the Lord Jesus be a creature since He created all things?:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (Jn.1:1-3).
If we are to believe you we must believe that the Lord Jesus created Himself--and that idea is absurd!
keypurr
Well-known member
He is God's first creation. God was alone before he created his express image. Then he created all things through his spiritual son Christ. Christ is the our/we/us that is recorded in the book of Genesis. I define beginning as the start of creation. Christ is the beginning. I also believe that using the word "logos"as word in John 1 is most likely incorrect. Plan or reason fits the verse better as God had a plan to use his Christ as a man to die on the cross. Either way it could be understood if folks would give it more thought.
I did not say that the Lord Jesus created himself. I quote Heb 1 that God created his exact image and used that image to create everything else. Jesus was a body to hold God's spiritual son Christ. It is quite clear that you have not understood my words Jerry.
Christ is firstborn of ALL CREATURES. Col 1:15. He is the image of the invisible God, that makes him a spiritual being, NOT A MAN. Christ was IN Jesus. Jesus was born, came into extance, in Bethlehem. Christ became a man to die for us. He needed a sinless body that is why God created Jesus. Heb 10:5.
.
It is not easy to try to see the spiritual world with human eyes, that is one of the reasons God sent his son Christ (not Jesus) to us. Christ is the son that was with God at the creation, christ did the creating for his Father.
The spiritual world runs very deep, we have so much to learn about it. It is easy to consider that Christ is the word of God, and to use he has the power of God, but he tells us very clearly that his father is the only true God.
Did he not say if you believe in the Father believe also in me?
Peace friend
Posted from the TOL App!
Okay, this is my version:
Christ was not created ... but being God was eternal. Christ is a name given by God to the promised ONE. Other names for him are Savior (Isaiah 43:11)and The WORD (John 1:1,2).
It was the IMAGE that was created... not the Christ/Savior/WORD.
God used the created image to come into the world - first as the super-natural presence of the Father God - second as the natural fleshly God the Son.
John 1:18 says that up until the days of John the Baptist that no one had ever seen God manifested visually as the Son/Savior.
No man at any time hath seen God the begotten Son ... he (John the Baptist) declared HIM.
Just amazing! My Lord was God who came to be our Savior. Isaiah 43:11
Moses knew about My Lord and so did King David... and even Abraham saw His Day and was glad of it.
keypurr
Well-known member
We continue to differ friend but I love you anyway.
keypurr, here you've said it! In your own words you stated:
Yes ... God created his only and express image!
I still say that the Christ was the eternal WORD of God as described in John 1:1,2 and the spiritual Christ/WORD was revealed within this world when God used His ONE created image to ultimately manifest His presence in flesh through Mary.
You say:
I say that there is only ONE Creator ... and that is the ONE God... who was not created but eternal. My Lord was that ONE Creator God.
You wrote:
Actually that KJV sentence says that the IMAGE was the firstborn of all creatures.
You wrote:
Please give me the verse where it says this so that I may check it out.
You asked:
This statement does not rule out that the Father Emmanuel and the Son Emmanuel were both the ONE God.
Yes, there was a Father who appeared unto men. The Father was Emmanuel ... LORD God among men in super-natural form. Yes, people believed upon him. They believed the miracles he did and they, frequently, believed the words he said.
Also, God the begotten Son appeared unto men... and My Lord Jesus was he. He wanted people to believe he was who he said he was ... and if they didn't accept his words, then, at least, believe because of the miracles he performed.
The Father and the Son were both God ... believe on Him.
Yes ... God created his only and express image!
I still say that the Christ was the eternal WORD of God as described in John 1:1,2 and the spiritual Christ/WORD was revealed within this world when God used His ONE created image to ultimately manifest His presence in flesh through Mary.
You say:
I say that there is only ONE Creator ... and that is the ONE God... who was not created but eternal. My Lord was that ONE Creator God.
You wrote:
Col 1:15.
Actually that KJV sentence says that the IMAGE was the firstborn of all creatures.
You wrote:
Please give me the verse where it says this so that I may check it out.
You asked:
This statement does not rule out that the Father Emmanuel and the Son Emmanuel were both the ONE God.
Yes, there was a Father who appeared unto men. The Father was Emmanuel ... LORD God among men in super-natural form. Yes, people believed upon him. They believed the miracles he did and they, frequently, believed the words he said.
Also, God the begotten Son appeared unto men... and My Lord Jesus was he. He wanted people to believe he was who he said he was ... and if they didn't accept his words, then, at least, believe because of the miracles he performed.
The Father and the Son were both God ... believe on Him.
Okay ... but one day ...
keypurr
Well-known member
We agree that there is one God but I believe that only the Father is God. John 17:3 is where Jesus tells you that.
The express image is the firstborn of all creatures so that is saying that Christ is a creation. Also the fact that he is an image proves that he is a creation. Now the father gave him his fullness and made him a god but not the most high God.
Emmanuel means God with us so the question is how was God with us? I believe by sending his son he was with us in spirit.
I believe on only one God and Jesus has a God. He tells us that he was going to HIS GOD and our God
Blessings friend
The New American Standard Version says Jesus is the exact representation of God's being (edit- actually it says "nature", not "being").
Hebrews 1:3 NASB - And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
keypurr
Well-known member
What is the difference between express image and exact representation?
It comes out the same friend.
It's not to say it is different except if you get Spirit from image and don't see Son of God in exact representation.
Thanks for the scripture - I'll check it out in context.
For me The Christ was a spiritual entity (being God) ... and the Christ became a spiritual + a finite entity when the ONE creator manifested his own presence within the world as Our Savior Lord Jesus the Christ.
The Christ had two natures at that time: The Spirit of God + the image of God in mortal flesh.
The Father had similar natures being: The Spirit of God + the image of God in a super-natural angelic form - called the Angel of God and the Angel of the LORD.
John 17:3
This was a prayer that was recorded for us that our Lord Jesus spoke out loud.
Christ makes a request in verse three which was that people would know the only true God AND Jesus Christ whom was sent by God.
In verse 5 Christ goes on to explain that HE (being the WORD/ the Christ/the Savior of Isaiah 43:11/My Lord/the Son of God-son of man) had shared the glory that belonged to God with God the Father before the world was.
The reason that Lord Jesus said that he shared the glorious presence with the Father before the world was ... is because God created only ONE image for his personal use.
God came as the Father bearing that ONE image and God came as the Promised Son/the Christ/the WORD bearing that same ONE image.
Eternal life is knowing the Father and the Jesus. They are the ONE God!
God created all things. All things were created by HIM and for HIM!
God was able to reveal himself as both the originator and the inheritor. God is they and they are Him.
Keypurr,
I have a question for you:
How do you interpret this NT verse ...
Matthew 1:
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is - God with us.
when it is linked with these OT verses?
Isaiah 7:14 (A sign for house of David of Immanuel)
14 Therefore the LORD himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:11
11 I (God), even I am the LORD, beside ME there is no savior.
Isaiah 45:21,22
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together:
Who hath declared this from ancient time?
Who hath told it from that time?
Have not I the LORD?
And there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside ME.
22 Look unto ME and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I AM God, and there is none else.
Keypurr, this is why we must look upon (acknowledge) that our Lord Jesus the Christ is the Savior who is God that saves.
What do you say about these verses?
I have a question for you:
How do you interpret this NT verse ...
Matthew 1:
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is - God with us.
when it is linked with these OT verses?
Isaiah 7:14 (A sign for house of David of Immanuel)
14 Therefore the LORD himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:11
11 I (God), even I am the LORD, beside ME there is no savior.
Isaiah 45:21,22
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together:
Who hath declared this from ancient time?
Who hath told it from that time?
Have not I the LORD?
And there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside ME.
22 Look unto ME and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I AM God, and there is none else.
Keypurr, this is why we must look upon (acknowledge) that our Lord Jesus the Christ is the Savior who is God that saves.
What do you say about these verses?