Unbeliever impressions of BR X debate
- Thread starter avatar382
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I think Sam's last post did a tremendous job showing the problems of the OV with the generally accepted Christian properties of God.. I think Bob will eventually counter by explaining how the exhaustive foreknowledge view places the responsibility of theodicy (evil) on God. Yes, you heard that right, a theist using the Problem of Evil. Imagine that!
It will be very interesting how see how Sam counters. I think it will be very hard for him to use the free will defense. I think Bob will grill him, rightly so, on how free will can truly exist if God has exhaustive foreknowlege.
But, unfortunately for Bob, the POE (Problem of Evil) doesn't negate the very valid points Sam is making now.
So, The OV side has a clever answer to the problem of evil, but Sam is doing a heck of a job challenging it's orthodoxy, showing how the OV limits a supposedly all-powerful, infinite being to a human level.
The Exhaustive foreknowledge side seems to be orthodox, and more consistant with the Bible, but it cannot deal with the pesky, pesky problem of evil.
Maybe at the end of this debate, both will admit that this is one of "God's mysteries" (read: we don't know... ) Very ironic, if you are reading this debate as an agnostic.
*grabs popcorn*
It will be very interesting how see how Sam counters. I think it will be very hard for him to use the free will defense. I think Bob will grill him, rightly so, on how free will can truly exist if God has exhaustive foreknowlege.
But, unfortunately for Bob, the POE (Problem of Evil) doesn't negate the very valid points Sam is making now.
So, The OV side has a clever answer to the problem of evil, but Sam is doing a heck of a job challenging it's orthodoxy, showing how the OV limits a supposedly all-powerful, infinite being to a human level.
The Exhaustive foreknowledge side seems to be orthodox, and more consistant with the Bible, but it cannot deal with the pesky, pesky problem of evil.
Maybe at the end of this debate, both will admit that this is one of "God's mysteries" (read: we don't know... ) Very ironic, if you are reading this debate as an agnostic.
*grabs popcorn*
Zakath
Resident Atheist
It seems that the OV side has quite a few "clever answers"... it's almost as if a group of theologians sat around a table with a list of "non-believer objections" and tried to reconstruct a deity to answer as many of them as possible. :think:
Unfortunately, in the process, the deity they cobbled together is not the same one that is worshipped by many orthodox Christians. :nono:
I will be interested to see if Enyart actually substantively addresses Lamerson's questions or merely redefines terms and dances around to his own prescripted agenda...
Unfortunately, in the process, the deity they cobbled together is not the same one that is worshipped by many orthodox Christians. :nono:
I will be interested to see if Enyart actually substantively addresses Lamerson's questions or merely redefines terms and dances around to his own prescripted agenda...
Both views affirm the great attributes of God. They understand them differently. The root issue is the nature of time/eternity, nature of the future, nature of sovereignty vs free will, nature of creation, etc. It is not primarily about the openness of God. Both views affirm that God is absolutely omniscient. They disagree with what are possible objects of God's knowledge and whether He meticulously or providentially 'controls' the universe. Certainly, theodicy is a stumbling block for the peanut gallery (atheists), but Open Theism maintains God's attributes and man's free will and responsibility for evil.
avatar382 said:
Interesting statement...
If I were ever to "deconvert" it would probably be for similar reasons.
Perhaps it's because my background was math/science rather than philosophical, but I have always felt more comfortable with Bible exposition rather than systematic theology, and after years of personal study and teaching/preaching with an emphasis on Bible expostion, I just happen to remain more of a dispensationalist with Calvinist leanings.
I recognize that systematic theology is important and has its place. However, when I read the writings of authors in diverse orthodox camps (reformed, dispensational, Wesleyan, etc.), each one of them gives such good arguments as to sway one to their own camp. It can be extremely confusing, and might easily lead one to the conclusion that the Bible is filled with contradictions.
I'm not recommending that anybody fear, shun or totally ignore studies or discussions in systematic theology. All I'm saying is that I have found more joy, more interest, and less confusion when studying the Scriptures as they were written rather than viewing the Bible as a boutique of proof texts.
In other words, I would recommend that believers temper their topical studies with whole-book studies.
I am not "Unbeliever", and have never liked Labels for "Believers".
Every single word that came out of mouth of Jesus Christ was Pure Truth, the thing is, that
His name is not Jesus Christ today, so label "christian" is played out.
What can be said about debate of two blind men on topic " what do you see ? "
If these two Men debating, know the Truth, there wouldn't be a debate.They believe differently.
Question for the Debate itself is inappropriate, and @ the same time serves as an answer,
of how much that Person who came up with the Question,knows and respects God.
God created Everybodys Life from start to the end, and question is "Does God knows you future ? " ??????
This don't even requires Inteligence to answer, this is Question for David Spade, King of
Sarcasm .
much love !
Every single word that came out of mouth of Jesus Christ was Pure Truth, the thing is, that
His name is not Jesus Christ today, so label "christian" is played out.
What can be said about debate of two blind men on topic " what do you see ? "
If these two Men debating, know the Truth, there wouldn't be a debate.They believe differently.
Question for the Debate itself is inappropriate, and @ the same time serves as an answer,
of how much that Person who came up with the Question,knows and respects God.
God created Everybodys Life from start to the end, and question is "Does God knows you future ? " ??????
This don't even requires Inteligence to answer, this is Question for David Spade, King of
Sarcasm .
much love !
You do not believe that Christ was raise from the dead. Therefore you are an "Unbeliever."pheelme said:
You don't really believe that.
From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day. Matthew 16:21
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Mark 8:31
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. Mark 8:31
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Jesus Christ was God, do you really believe God was dead for two days ??????Turbo said:
Two days for God are like Two Thousand Years, He was dead in your Beliefs, today, after
2000 years He is Alive in flesh again, and it is on you, dear Turbo to Call His Name, or
Die. Joel 2 : 28 - 32 and Acts 2 : 17 - 21
No, I do not "Believe" that, I KNOW, and I FEEL His words, just like I feel and Know my Future.
Do You "Believe" in difference between " I know " and " I believe ", between
truth and belief ??
Christs entire Mission was told in Prophecy, it was that flesh's Destiny, created by that
Spirit, who created that Prophecy.
What is so surprising about suffering and death of that flesh God was In ??
much love !
P.S try to be like Christ, and don't judge who and what I am, please :rotfl:
pheelme said:
Huh? Is that like the illusion of the science fiction movie "The Matrix"? We are responsible/accountable for our choices. They originate in our minds and wills. They are not illusory.
Do you have a faith background or influences? I do not recognize your thinking.
The Matrix is just a Metaphore of already Existing Metaphore, the Bible , the Truth.godrulz said:
Everybody Except disciples felt that Jesus is Lie and Illusion, because well Established Beliefs based on The Law of God.
Your Life wasn't you Choice, it was given to you as a gift from God.It is Entirely His Creation,
how can you believe that Anyone is in Control over Destiny.By that Logic, People who died, let say, by Tsunamis, commited Suicide.
The Matrix is just Vision of Bible's Prophecy.And Neo is just that Dude, who Finaly came second Time, who was more Important than Trinity.Because Holy Trinity is Going to Die
when that Glorious End / New Beginning Happen '
much Logic !