toldailytopic: What do you believe is the most misunderstood thing about God and His

[Ps82]

I know how it's being interpreted. And I know which term has been misinterpreted. And it's still wrong.

The Bible was never meant to be taken as a "rule book from God". It was created to be used as a basis for contemplation, discussion, and debate. To the ancient Jews that created it, God was not some statue in a temple that you went to to plead for favors. The God of the Israelites was a God you lived with. It was a God that men had to grapple with, contend with, as they did with any relationship (this was innate to their culture). The books of the Bible were written to reflect and promote that kind of ongoing personal relationship by presenting stories that reveal the struggle between God and man. It was not a "how to" book from on high. It was a "this is how it is between us and God" testimonial, collected and edited out of a long history of people who grappled with their God on a daily basis.

I like the things you said. I believe that the Bible was recorded to reveal God as LORD and Savior to mankind (Isaiah 43:11) ... and, yet, all the stories can also be used to teach us lessons of life... regarding our behavior toward other people, our weaknesses, and our need for a relationship with our living Lord.

When I read scripture ... I don't dwell so much on the people stories ... but rather am looking for the LORD in the midst of the story. How is God working, what is he teaching us, what is he revealing to us about himself?

 

[Strefanash]

the most misunderstood?

it is a tossup between His love, which is degraded into sentimental indulgence

or his wrath, which is degraded into something rendering God into a genocidal maniac.

I see these two misunderstood everywhere, including by my me.

Oh, and by understanding i do not mean theological intellectual knowledge, but true spiritual comprehension which shows in the fruit of the Spirit

 

[Angel4Truth]

They express the ideals that the people who wrote them believed was God's will for them.

Be more specific please.

Ideally what is the purpose of a rule? At least try to answer the actual question ok?

 

[anna]

I know how it's being interpreted. And I know which term has been misinterpreted. And it's still wrong.

The Bible was never meant to be taken as a "rule book from God". It was created to be used as a basis for contemplation, discussion, and debate. To the ancient Jews that created it, God was not some statue in a temple that you went to to plead for favors. The God of the Israelites was a God you lived with. It was a God that men had to grapple with, contend with, as they did with any relationship (this was innate to their culture). The books of the Bible were written to reflect and promote that kind of ongoing personal relationship by presenting stories that reveal the struggle between God and man. It was not a "how to" book from on high. It was a "this is how it is between us and God" testimonial, collected and edited out of a long history of people who grappled with their God on a daily basis.

I remember reading in leviticus that an unmarried woman who gets raped has to marry her rapist, but then I remember reading also that Moses changed the law a little to help women who didn't have a male heir to their estate so this leads me to believe that PureX is probably right.

The old testiment laws seemed to be a living breathing document rather then some law etched in stone and never to be challenged. Plus the idea of the future being partially open partially settled makes me question whether the details of the end times are spelled out literally in scripture.

 

[anna]

I think my biggest struggle is knowing about what faith is. I know scripture says it comes by hearing the word of God and it is the evidence of things not seen and hope that is to come. I just don't really think I really know it though.

 

[Lighthouse]

Hi Lighthouse,
Show me where God explains that he is not omni-aware and I'll address the scripture.

And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
-Genesis 18:20-21

And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
-Genesis 22:12

And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’
-Jeremiah 32:35

I thought I was assigning less power to Satan than most people suspect.

If so then people are assigning him much more power than he has.

I realize that Satan is only allowed to do what God's permissive will allows him ... I saw that in the story about where Satan argued with an angel over the possession of the body of Moses. Even though Satan thought he had the right to possess the body of Moses; yet, God did not allow Satan to have it. I understand that he is not all-powerful.

The book of Job is a good illustration of this as well.

Oh, never mind...

But, if you take a look at what Satan was able to do to Job, to his children, and to his possessions on earth, I think you will see that he does have power when God allows him to work.

Certainly.

This concept of how God works and how his permissive will functions within creation may very well be yet another point which people misunderstand ... Do we really understand how God's will operates within heaven and earth and in our individual lives?

:idunno:

 

[PureX]

Be more specific please.

Ideally what is the purpose of a rule? At least try to answer the actual question ok?

I am not going to bother answering you anymore because:
1. you can't understand most of what I post, anyway, and
2. you neg-rep people for what you THINK they wrote or meant when in fact you didn't even understand what they wrote.

Go attack someone else.

 

[PureX]

I think my biggest struggle is knowing about what faith is. I know scripture says it comes by hearing the word of God and it is the evidence of things not seen and hope that is to come. I just don't really think I really know it though.

The term "word" that we are reading actually translates into the Greek term "logos".

The meaning of the word "logos" is a little difficult to express in English, but it is the root of our word "logic". Yet it means more than what we mean when we use the word "logic". The Greek "logos" refers to a kind of divine logic. Or perhaps we might better think of it as 'omni-logic'.

The ancient Greeks believed that everything we see is the physical form of an ideal. When we see a tree, for example, what we are seeing is a specific single physical/material expression of the ideal of tree-ness. (I realize that sounds a bit odd, but I can't think of a better way to convey the concept.) The Greeks believed that the whole universe (world and cosmos) exists first as a divine ideal (today we would think of it as an idea in the mind of God, or God's 'blueprint' for creation). And then the physical world that we are living in is the material expression of that divine ideal. But the logos wasn't just a blueprint of how all things work together, it also expressed the will and spirit of the Creator. It wasn't just what was in God's mind, but what was in God's heart and soul, too.

So the "word" being referred to in the Bible has nothing to do with words on paper. It has to do with that divine blueprint in the mind/heart/soul of God, from which, and through which all things have come into being. So to "hear the word of God" means being able to recognize that divine logos behind and within the physical world (material reality). The "word" (logos) refers to the reality behind reality. It refers to the nature, spirit, and will/plan of God that is being manifested by what we call 'reality'. And when the Bible says that the "word was made flesh" in the form of Jesus the Christ, what it means is that Jesus Christ is that logos in human form. What the author of that text is saying is that Jesus is a human manifestation of God's nature, spirit, and plan/will.

It's all quite beautiful and wonderful to contemplate, at least to my way of thinking. But what these passages definitely are not saying, is that the text itself is "God's word". What it is saying is that God's "word" (the logos) is being expressed through everything that exists, including even us (why Jesus called us God's "children"), but especially in the human form of Jesus of Nazareth. This is WHY Jesus is the Christ.

 

[anna]

The term "word" that we are reading actually translates into the Greek term "logos".

The meaning of the word "logos" is a little difficult to express in English, but it is the root of our word "logic". Yet it means more than what we mean when we use the word "logic". The Greek "logos" refers to a kind of divine logic. Or perhaps we might better think of it as 'omni-logic'.

The ancient Greeks believed that everything we see is the physical form of an ideal. When we see a tree, for example, what we are seeing is a specific single physical/material expression of the ideal of tree-ness. (I realize that sounds a bit odd, but I can't think of a better way to convey the concept.) The Greeks believed that the whole universe (world and cosmos) existed first as a divine ideal (today we would think of it as an idea in the mind of God, or God's 'blueprint' for creation). And then the physical world that we are living in is the material expression of that divine ideal. But the logos wasn't just a blueprint of how all things work together, it also expressed the will and spirit of the Creator. It wasn't just what was in God's mind, but what was in God's heart and soul as well.


So the "word" being referred to in the Bible has nothing to do with words on paper. It has to do with that divine blueprint in the mind/heart/soul of God, from which, and through which all things have come into being. So to "hear the word of God" means being able to recognize that divine logos behind and within the physical world (material reality). The "word" (logos) refers to the reality behind reality. It refers to the nature, spirit, and will/plan of God that is being manifested by what we call 'reality'. And when the Bible says that the "word was made flesh" in the form of Jesus the Christ, what it means is that Jesus Christ is that logos in human form. What the author of that text is saying is that Jesus is a human manifestation of God's nature, spirit, and plan/will.

It's all quite beautiful and wonderful to contemplate, at least to my way of thinking. But what these passages definitely are not saying, is that the text itself is "God's word". What it is saying is that God's "word" (the logos) is being expressed through everything that exists, including even us (why Jesus called us God's "children"), but especially in the human form of Jesus of Nazareth. This is WHY Jesus is the Christ.

I remember witnessing to this lady and when I came to the section where it says the word became flesh (Jesus), the world logos popped into my head but I had never done a word study on it so this is interesting.

 

[Ps82]

Hello Lighthouse;
Your examples of how God is not omni-aware:

And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
-Genesis 18:20-21

And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
-Genesis 22:12

These are two great examples. I also have pondered both of these in the past, because I noticed the use of personal pronouns in reference to God. (I will go down now and see ... now I know that you fear God)

I have come to a personal conclusion about them based on my understanding of the identity of the LORD God. Hopefully without being too long winded I will share my thoughts.

My first and second premises, which I base on truth revealed from scripture, are that
a.) God is omni-aware,
b.) but that he, on occasion, relates to human beings within his own creation as a literal visible presence among them (an Emmanuel sort of ability)

Next,
c.) I perceive that, even though God is omni-aware (to the point that he knows people before they are born ... and he knows the invisible contents of their hearts ... knows what people are thinking before they speak ... etc. etc.), yet Satan, angels, and human beings are not omni-aware (Even the angels wonder ... Satan questions God - Ps 82:2,3,4 and Job 1:9,10,11... and humans walk in darkness Ps 82:5 - duh.)

Lastly,
d.) I am aware (but cannot totally comprehend the truth) that somehow God's omni-awareness and total control co-exists still is able to allow mankind to express some freewill of their own.

So, to deal with the seeming contradiction MY QUESTION became:
Would knowing the purpose about why the LORD personally communicated with Satan, angels, and men like Abraham in the form of the LORD - IOW, as the super-natural presence of Emmanuel clear up the confusion?

Well, with your examples I focused on what God may have been "up to" before he came unto Satan and Abraham.
Since men are not omni-aware ... I noticed that God took the time to explain what he was about to do to Sodom and G. I believed that the LORD demonstrated by his actions that He had a special regard for Lot and his family ... with his being the nephew and adopted son of Abraham... and the LORD also had regard for the inhabitants of Sodom and G. He went down into the area and spent all night in the streets acting as their JUDGE ... testifying of their sins and need to repent. IOW, the LORD, came to offer salvation to Lot and the people.
Reminds me of what God did in the day of our mortal Lord Emmanuel.

Did God come as the Savior ... because he did not know who would accept or reject his good news ... or did he come specifically to perform his predestined work among men and mercifully offer salvation at that time? I pick the second. I think that is what he did in the days of Sodom and G. He came to perform a specific divine work among men ... but showed mercy by offering the chance for men to also repent at that time. His works among men became a divine testimony of who He was ... and His conversation with Abraham became a testimony Abraham could share with his descendants ... just as God ALREADY KNEW he would.
Quote:
Gen. 18:19 ... in fact this is the crux of the reason of why God spoke personally to Abraham (using the personal pronoun I to reference himself). He knew that Abraham would testify of what God said and did to his own children... of how merciful God was because he came among men to look around and have a chance to repent before he brought judgement.

The same sort of situation existed with Abraham and Issac. The LORD did not tempt Abraham without a purpose in mind. He already knew how Abraham would ultimately react ... but Isaac did not. Abraham went through his test ... as a testimony in the eyes of Isaac of how God is real, alive, and knows what is going on in the world... and of how important it is to obey him - even when it is difficult. This is also probably why God spoke in an audible voice from heaven in the ears of Abraham and Isaac reiterating the promise made to Abraham and his descendants through Isaac: Gen. 22: 16, 17,18

MY ANSWER:
Since people are not all knowing ... God personally comes to give a visual and audible testimony of himself ... and to leave a testimony for men to forward to their descendants. Aren't we even now still discussing the testimony left by the
God did among men in Sodom and G. and on Mount Moriah?

The events were not respecting what God knew or didn't know ... but with leaving a historical testimony that happened in the eyes and ears of men.

Another good one, but this one I've never noticed; so, I will need to read more about it.

And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’
-Jeremiah 32:35

Thanks for the references.
Hope I didn't get too long for you.

 

[Lighthouse]

Hello Lighthouse;
Your examples of how God is not omni-aware:


These are two great examples. I also have pondered both of these in the past, because I noticed the use of personal pronouns in reference to God. (I will go down now and see ... now I know that you fear God)

I have come to a personal conclusion about them based on my understanding of the identity of the LORD God. Hopefully without being too long winded I will share my thoughts.

My first and second premises, which I base on truth revealed from scripture, are that
a.) God is omni-aware,
b.) but that he, on occasion, relates to human beings within his own creation as a literal visible presence among them (an Emmanuel sort of ability)

So God lied?

Next,
c.) I perceive that, even though God is omni-aware (to the point that he knows people before they are born ... and he knows the invisible contents of their hearts ... knows what people are thinking before they speak ... etc. etc.), yet Satan, angels, and human beings are not omni-aware (Even the angels wonder ... Satan questions God - Ps 82:2,3,4 and Job 1:9,10,11... and humans walk in darkness Ps 82:5 - duh.)

You do realize that none of these show that God knew any of this before they existed, right? I mean, knowing what one will say before they speak only requires knowing one's thoughts before the words proceed from their mouths. And knowing His plans for Jeremiah before forming him in the womb? Seriously, you should think these things through better.

Lastly,
d.) I am aware (but cannot totally comprehend the truth) that somehow God's omni-awareness and total control co-exists still is able to allow mankind to express some freewill of their own.

So, to deal with the seeming contradiction MY QUESTION became:
Would knowing the purpose about why the LORD personally communicated with Satan, angels, and men like Abraham in the form of the LORD - IOW, as the super-natural presence of Emmanuel clear up the confusion?

Well, with your examples I focused on what God may have been "up to" before he came unto Satan and Abraham.
Since men are not omni-aware ... I noticed that God took the time to explain what he was about to do to Sodom and G. I believed that the LORD demonstrated by his actions that He had a special regard for Lot and his family ... with his being the nephew and adopted son of Abraham... and the LORD also had regard for the inhabitants of Sodom and G. He went down into the area and spent all night in the streets acting as their JUDGE ... testifying of their sins and need to repent. IOW, the LORD, came to offer salvation to Lot and the people.
Reminds me of what God did in the day of our mortal Lord Emmanuel.

None of this explains why God would imply He was unaware of what was going on if He was fully aware of it.

Nor does it explain why God bargained over the cities with Abraham. If God already knew there were not even ten righteous and He knew Abraham was going to get to the point before He even told Abraham that He planned to destroy them, why not just cut Abraham off at the pass and tell him immediately that the only righteous ones within were Lot and his family? I mean, if what you say about God is true, then surely Abraham knew this about Him. So why play games?

Did God come as the Savior ... because he did not know who would accept or reject his good news ... or did he come specifically to perform his predestined work among men and mercifully offer salvation at that time? I pick the second.

Both. It isn't an either/or situation; these are not mutually exclusive.:nono:

I think that is what he did in the days of Sodom and G. He came to perform a specific divine work among men ... but showed mercy by offering the chance for men to also repent at that time. His works among men became a divine testimony of who He was ... and His conversation with Abraham became a testimony Abraham could share with his descendants ... just as God ALREADY KNEW he would.

Gen. 18:19 ... in fact this is the crux of the reason of why God spoke personally to Abraham (using the personal pronoun I to reference himself). He knew that Abraham would testify of what God said and did to his own children... of how merciful God was because he came among men to look around and have a chance to repent before he brought judgement.

So God said He didn't know even though He did for the story?:dizzy:

Why didn't God just say, "I'm going to go down and give them the chance to repent"? And if God knows the future as you claim why would He even need to do that? They didn't repent, we all know that, so according to you God knew they wouldn't repent, so you're saying God acted futilely. What is the purpose of that? That's not merciful.

The same sort of situation existed with Abraham and Issac. The LORD did not tempt Abraham without a purpose in mind. He already knew how Abraham would ultimately react ... but Isaac did not. Abraham went through his test ... as a testimony in the eyes of Isaac of how God is real, alive, and knows what is going on in the world... and of how important it is to obey him - even when it is difficult. This is also probably why God spoke in an audible voice from heaven in the ears of Abraham and Isaac reiterating the promise made to Abraham and his descendants through Isaac: Gen. 22: 16, 17,18

So instead of saying, "See Isaac, your father loves me and will do anything I ask of him," to prove to Isaac [as you state] He said, "...now I know you love me..."?

Again, what purpose does this serve? Especially in light of the fact that Isaac didn't even know what was going on until Abraham started tying him up.

MY ANSWER:
Since people are not all knowing ... God personally comes to give a visual and audible testimony of himself ... and to leave a testimony for men to forward to their descendants. Aren't we even now still discussing the testimony left by the
God did among men in Sodom and G. and on Mount Moriah?

The events were not respecting what God knew or didn't know ... but with leaving a historical testimony that happened in the eyes and ears of men.

So your argument is that even though we know God is all-knowing He speaks to us as though He is not for our benefit? That makes no sense at all.

Another good one, but this one I've never noticed; so, I will need to read more about it.

Thanks for the references.
Hope I didn't get too long for you.

Make sure what you read is Scripture.

 

[Ps82]

Hi LIghthouse,
There are too many examples within scripture that alludes to the fact that God is aware. I gave a few. He knew and selected his prophets while in the womb. Even our LORD Jesus knew the thoughts of men before they spoke them aloud. Our Lord knew the thoughts and location of one of the disciples before he was in his presence ... and Jesus told him of his thoughts and location. It was this divine omni-awareness ability that caused the individual to become a disciple of Jesus.

As I pointed out to you The LORD God, who came to speak with Abraham before the Sodom and G. event, even told us that he already knew this about Abraham:

Genesis 18:18,19 The LORD informs us of what HE ALREADY KNEW:
"SEEING that Abraham SHALL SURELY become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I KNOW him, that HE WILL command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which HE HAS SPOKEN of him."

Now, I could go on and on finding examples in scripture of how God knows things ... past, present, and future ... including the famous phrase about his knowing the number of hairs on a person's head.

While you have only come up with two examples found within conversations between the LORD God who held a personal conversation with men. (I have not yet taken a look at your third example.)

I believe those conversations were more for the purpose of informing mankind that our LORD was able to have a personal relationship with mankind - thus the personal pronouns and the verbs denoting his behavior while on earth. When he tells Abraham that he has come personally to SEE for himself... He is letting Abraham know:
a.) that HE is able to come into the world and personally SEE with his own eye balls how things are ... (I happen to understand from scripture that the invisible God has created a visible bodily form for his own use ... and IT even has literal EYES to SEE.)
b.) that HE is willing to come among men as a JUDGE coming with mercy on his mind... and he reveals this to Abraham in the conversation ... and later in ch. 19 we are told that the plans are to stay in the streets all night ... and later we find out that the LORD did exactly that while telling the people of their sins and need of repentance. The people became so angry that they took him to the doorway of Lot... etc. etc.

Now ask yourself, Lighthouse, did the LORD need to come to earth and talk to Abraham, walk with Abraham, walk around in the city of Sodom calling for repentance in order to bring judgement upon those cities? ... OR did God do all of this to benefit mankind.

c.) and I've concluded that this event was a method for God to show Abraham and future mankind that HE would be coming as a merciful future savior upon the earth ... bringing a personal message of repentance and salvation.

The use of the personal pronoun "I" in the conversations between the LORD God and men merely demonstrated the personal - one to one literal contact - that God was enjoying with mankind.

Look back at the personal relationship between the LORD and Adam and Woman within the Garden ...Do you think that the LORD did not already know what they had done or where they were hiding when he asked: "Where art thou?"

Did God lie? No.
I think a long look at why our Lord - in the form of Jesus the Son of God being God the savior (Isaiah 43:11) - could say that he did not know the time of the end... when we are told that the entire book of Revelation is (quote) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants - things which must shortly come to pass... and HE (God as the risen Lord) sent and signified IT by HIS ANGEL unto his servant JOHN.

Now, I don't want to go into my findings about how an invisible God manifests himself as a visible LORD - both a supernatural (OT) form and later a fleshly (NT) form ... and how God works through his created form among men, but I think Genesis 18 and Genesis 19 are perfect examples for showing us details of how God works among men in personal ways ... and reveals what he is doing what he is seeing and leaves a testimony of himself for people who aren't omni-aware.

 

[Lighthouse]

There are too many examples within scripture that alludes to the fact that God is aware. I gave a few. He knew and selected his profits while in the womb. Even our LORD Jesus knew the thoughts of men before they spoke them aloud. Our Lord knew the thoughts and location of one of the disciples before he was in his presence ... and Jesus told him of his thoughts and location. It was this divine omni-awareness ability that caused the individual to become a disciple of Jesus.

:doh:

I've already explained this to you.

As I pointed out to you The LORD God, who came to speak with Abraham before the Sodom and G. event, even told us that he already knew this about Abraham.

Genesis 18:18,19 The LORD informs us of what HE ALREADY KNEW:
"SEEING that Abraham SHALL SURELY become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I KNOW him, that HE WILL command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LROD may bring upon Abraham that which HE HAS SPOKEN of him."

Based on what He presently knew of Abraham. This knowledge did not require exhaustive and/or definite foreknowledge of the future.

Now, I could go on and on finding examples in scripture of how God knows things ... past, present, and future ... including the famous phrase about his knowing the number of hairs on a person's head.

Because God never uses hyperbole, right?

Oh, wait, I forgot, that's actually your whole argument; that He always uses hyperbole.

While you have only come up with two examples found within conversations between the LORD God who held a personal conversation with men. (I have not yet taken a look at your third example.)

Another example is when He asked Adam and Eve where they were...

I believe those conversations were more for the purpose of informing mankind that our LORD was able to have a personal relationship with mankind. When he tells Abraham that he has come personally to SEE for himself... He is letting Abraham know:
a.) that HE is able to come into the world and personally SEE with his own eye balls how things are ... (I happen to understand from scripture that the invisible God has created a visible bodily form for his own use ... and IT even has literal EYES to SEE.)
b.) that HE is willing to come among men as a JUDGE coming with mercy on his mind... and he reveals this to Abraham in the conversation ... and later in ch. 19 we are told that the plans are to stay in the streets all night ... and later we find out that the LORD did exactly that while telling the people of their sins and need of repentance. The people became so angry that they took him to the doorway of Lot... etc. etc.

What part of, "...if not I will know," do you net get? That right there sums it all up; God didn't already know. And there is still another example of the bargaining between God and Abraham over the amount of righteous people. That's two examples in one story. Why would God speak as though He did not know if He did? Was Abraham too stupid to comprehend the idea of God's omniscience, as you define it? If so, how did you end up smarter than Abraham?

Now ask yourself, Lighthouse, did the LORD need to come to earth and talk to Abraham, walk with Abraham, walk around in the city of Sodom calling for repentance in order to bring judgement upon those cities? ... OR did God do all of this to benefit mankind.

Both.

c.) and I've concluded that this event was a method for God to show Abraham and future mankind that HE would be coming as a merciful future savior upon the earth ... bringing a personal message of repentance and salvation.

The use of the personal pronoun "I" in the conversations between the LORD God and men merely demonstrated the personal - one to one literal contact - that God was enjoying with mankind.

Completely irrelevant to the issue at hand: God claimed not to know something that was present knowledge.

Look back at the personal relationship between the LORD and Adam and Woman within the Garden ...Do you think that the LORD did not already know what the had done or where they were hiding when he asked: "Where art thou?"

That is exactly what I think.

Did God lie? No.
I think a long look at why our Lord - in the form of Jesus the Son of God being God the savior (Isaiah 43:11) could say that he did not know the time of the end... when we are told that the entire book of Revelation is (quote) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants - things which must shortly come to pass... and HE (God as the risen Lord) sent and signified IT by HIS ANGEL unto to servant JOHN.

We're not talking about the period of time when the Son had emptied Himself. We're talking about God having full access stating that He was ignorant of present facts.

Now, I don't want to go into my findings about how an invisible God becomes a visible LORD - both a supernatural form and later a fleshly form ... and how God works through his created form among men, but I think Genesis 18 and Genesis 19 are perfect examples for showing us details of how that works.

And you still haven't answered the question.

 

[Ps82]

Lighthouse you and I disagree on God's omni-awareness ... I've tried to explain to you how this truth can co-exist with the fact that God comes in the form of the LORD and speaks to less aware men of what he is doing, thinking, and seeing ... while using personal pronouns in a conversation.

I don't want to turn this thread in to an explanation of how I feel that one of the most mis-understood things about God is:

How an invisible God can come within his creation and have a personal relationship with them - while using a literal created visible bodily form. This visible bodily form was first mentioned in Genesis 1:26-27 where it is called an "image". Later it is referred to as The Angel of God... and ultimately God revealed the NAME of his visible super-natural form unto Moses ... as "The LORD, The LORD God." Exodus 34:5-6

Understanding how God uses this living bodily form among men is a key to understanding just how personal God was willing to get with his created beings.
I'll say again that Genesis 18 and 19 gives us wonderful clues as to how God personally communicated with men within the world.

I guess you and I are at a standstill about God's omni-awareness, but you have to ignore a plethora of other scripture to make your choice ... well, so be it.

 

[Lighthouse]

Lighthouse you and I disagree on God's omni-awareness ... I've tried to explain to you how this truth can co-exist with the fact that God comes in the form of the LORD and speaks to less aware men of what he is doing, thinking, and seeing ... while using personal pronouns in a conversation.

It's not about the personal pronoun, you ignorant twit!

I don't want to turn this thread in to an explanation of how I feel that one of the most mis-understood things about God is:

How an invisible God can come within his creation and have a personal relationship with them - while using a literal created visible bodily form. This visible bodily form was first mentioned in Genesis 1:26-27 where it is called an "image". Later it is referred to as The Angel of God... and ultimately God revealed the NAME of his visible super-natural form unto Moses ... as "The LORD, The LORD God." Exodus 34:5-6

Understanding how God uses this living bodily form among men is a key to understanding just how personal God was willing to get with his created beings.
I'll say again that Genesis 18 and 19 gives us wonderful clues as to how God personally communicated with men within the world.

I guess you and I are at a standstill about God's omni-awareness, but you have to ignore a plethora of other scripture to make you choice ... well, so be it.

:doh:

I am ignoring nothing. I used to believe God was omni-aware, though I never used such a term; I believed it for twenty years. Seven years ago I realized I was reading that idea into all of the verses I used to support it; for if I looked at them without that idea they didn't support it at all.

 

[Ps82]

Lighthouse,
due to your rude attitudes ...

It's not about the personal pronoun, you ignorant twit!

I no longer desire to discuss anything with you. I hope I will remember that I've said this to you, and in the future I hope that I will not become tempted to address any remark you make ever again.

 

[Lighthouse]

Lighthouse,
due to your rude attitudes ...


I no longer desire to discuss anything with you. I hope I will remember that I've said this to you, and in the future I hope that I will not become tempted to address any remark you make ever again.

Why? Because I told you several times what was at issue here and you kept bringing it back to the personal pronoun showing us that God was being personal which had nothing to do with the issue at hand, and I pointed that out to you several times before I finally called you out on your willful ignorance? Are you so weak that you cannot take an insult? Or are you just a coward that runs when your obfuscation is exposed?

 

[zoo22]

It's not about the personal pronoun, you ignorant twit!

:doh:

I am ignoring nothing. I used to believe God was omni-aware, though I never used such a term; I believed it for twenty years. Seven years ago I realized I was reading that idea into all of the verses I used to support it; for if I looked at them without that idea they didn't support it at all.

You believed you were right for 20 years, changed your mind, and now believe you're right.

I mean that in no defense of Calvinism, by the way.

 

[Nick M]

That God is only love and not a judge or Holy

Cool, I will have to remember this one. Loving people is unholy.

 

[Lighthouse]

You believed you were right for 20 years, changed your mind, and now believe you're right.

I mean that in no defense of Calvinism, by the way.

Actually, no. That's the thing; I didn't actually believe that was right. I forced myself to believe it because the pastor said it was true. But I kept reasoning with myself because it ran contrary to what I knew the Bible to say. At the age of 17, five years before joining TOL and becoming OV, I decided that God, in His omnipotence, had chosen to be ignorant of the specifics of individuals' decisions for, or against, Jesus Christ. Else wise Christ dying for us all was in vain, and futile; rather if He did know then it would only make sense for Him to only do this for those whom He knew would accept. And since the Bible showed me that God was not the type to reject anyone, but rather He lets them reject Him, I saw no other possibility.