toldailytopic: What about abortion in cases of rape?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
oldhermit
Member
That is the most absurd line of reasoning I have seen on this thread up to this point. Even the law holds a person accpountable for murder when a woman is shot and the child is lost as a result. Even as moronic as our judicial system is they have figured this one out.
alwight
New member
I understand your point but if hopefully professional people know what they are doing then a possible abortion would ethically have to be discussed at some point. Withholding the option of an early abortion would clearly be the greater wrong imo.
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
Exactly.
No matter what "problem" is associated, to suggest that MURDERING an infant is an acceptable solution in monstrous.
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
I agree, abortion of a baby is unethical and immoral. However, I don't agree that a few cells in a puddle of water is a baby. We can respect each other's opinion without being belligerent and agree to disagree.
oldhermit
Member
Alabama*
Ala. Code § 13A-6-1 (2006) defines "person," for the purpose of criminal homicide or assaults, to include an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability and specifies that nothing in the act shall make it a crime to perform or obtain an abortion that is otherwise legal.
Alaska
Alaska. Stat. § 11.41.150 et seq., § 11.81.250 , § 12.55.035, and § 12.55.125 (2005) relate to offenses against unborn children. The law provides that a defendant convicted of murder in the second degree or murder of an unborn child shall be sentenced to a definite term of imprisonment of at least 10 years but no more than 99 years. The law does not apply to acts that cause the death of an unborn child if those acts were committed during a legal abortion to which the pregnant woman consented or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf consented, or for which such consent is implied by law.
Ariz. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 13-1102, § 13-1103, § 13-1104 and § 13-1105 define negligent homicide, manslaughter and first and second degree murder. The law specifies that the offenses apply to an unborn child at any stage in its development.
Ariz. Rev. Stat. Ann § 13-701, § 13-704, § 13-705 and § 13-751 define aggravated circumstances in the sentence of death or life imprisonment. The law specifies that the defendant shall not be released until the completion of 35 years if the murdered person was under 15 years of age or was an unborn child. The law states that for the purposes of punishment, an unborn child shall be treated like a minor under 12 years of age.
Fetal Homicide laws
http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx
Ala. Code § 13A-6-1 (2006) defines "person," for the purpose of criminal homicide or assaults, to include an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability and specifies that nothing in the act shall make it a crime to perform or obtain an abortion that is otherwise legal.
Alaska
Alaska. Stat. § 11.41.150 et seq., § 11.81.250 , § 12.55.035, and § 12.55.125 (2005) relate to offenses against unborn children. The law provides that a defendant convicted of murder in the second degree or murder of an unborn child shall be sentenced to a definite term of imprisonment of at least 10 years but no more than 99 years. The law does not apply to acts that cause the death of an unborn child if those acts were committed during a legal abortion to which the pregnant woman consented or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf consented, or for which such consent is implied by law.
Ariz. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 13-1102, § 13-1103, § 13-1104 and § 13-1105 define negligent homicide, manslaughter and first and second degree murder. The law specifies that the offenses apply to an unborn child at any stage in its development.
Ariz. Rev. Stat. Ann § 13-701, § 13-704, § 13-705 and § 13-751 define aggravated circumstances in the sentence of death or life imprisonment. The law specifies that the defendant shall not be released until the completion of 35 years if the murdered person was under 15 years of age or was an unborn child. The law states that for the purposes of punishment, an unborn child shall be treated like a minor under 12 years of age.
Fetal Homicide laws
http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx
I agree that we can disagree.
I do not agree that I have to respect all opinions.
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
Now you're getting personal. My opinion is my opinion . . . as is yours. I don't have to agree with your reasoning, believing it to be totaly insane, but I'm probably not going purposely insult you to illustrate my disdain without an attempt at humorous inflection.
If you want to continue to move the goal posts . . . fine. Don't expect me to not call you out for doing so.
alwight
New member
On the basis that there appears to be no physical manifestation of a "soul" in a zygote or in anything else imo. A soul is apparently your dogma not mine. Yes it does perhaps make my ethical choice here rather easier than yours I'd agree, but there you go it isn't why I disbelieve.
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
I can't take credit for that one. I heard it a long time ago, and it cracked me up too!
oldhermit
Member
You are right. That was unprofessional. You have my apologies.
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
All of this is irrelevant to the current discussion. If you want to continue this line of argument do so on another thread that I will be happy to engage on Tuesday next.
oldhermit
Member
I fail to see their irrelevance. You said "Life began when the fetus passed through the birth canal and took its first breath." What these laws serve to establish is the fact that the unborn child is regarded as a living person and as such is protected under the Constitution.
Let me run this up the flag pole.
Let's say you have a rape victim with rapist sperm in her Uterus and you have some spermicide.
There might be a fertilized egg, there might not be.
Let's say using the spermicide would take out the fertilized egg as well (if it's there).
A pregnancy test is of no value since the fertilized egg isn't transmitting yet.
So;
You could;
A. install the spermicide and unknowingly destroy the child.
Or
B. not install the spermicide and assit the rapist sperm is fertilizing an egg the next day or so after.
What do you do?
Let's say you have a rape victim with rapist sperm in her Uterus and you have some spermicide.
There might be a fertilized egg, there might not be.
Let's say using the spermicide would take out the fertilized egg as well (if it's there).
A pregnancy test is of no value since the fertilized egg isn't transmitting yet.
So;
You could;
A. install the spermicide and unknowingly destroy the child.
Or
B. not install the spermicide and assit the rapist sperm is fertilizing an egg the next day or so after.
What do you do?
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
Well, it's you moving the goal posts and, in your case, using an hypocritical argument given your position.
The fetus is protected up to a point, that point being in conjunction with harm to the potential mother and is totally irrelevant to cases of legal abortion.
How it moves the goal posts is that for you to use the argument, in light of the ever-changing laws of society, you are required to work from a position of moral relativism.
I'd be happy to carry on this discussion later. I won't be back online until Tuesday due to a fishing holiday in Long Island. Have a great weekend!
I would equate that with an accident, not a deliberate premeditated attempt to kill a human being.
Like I chop down a tree and it happens to fall on someone and kills them.
It was an accident and not my deliberate premeditated attempt to kill someone.
Abortion is a deliberate premeditated attempt to kill.
Most rape victims, that I know, who have had abortions have ended up attempting suicide because they felt guilty about having abortions. And, before you or anyone else asks, no. I didn't tell them that they killed their babies. Those feelings came from them. I've voluntarily counseled rape victims because it has happened to me. I offer them support when they can get it nowhere else. If they ask my opinion on whether they should abort the babies they are carrying, I tell them that I don't think they should. But, I don't preach at them.
After being raped, they already feel bad enough about themselves. A lot of them have a hard time taking care of themselves and making everyday decisions because they feel like the rape was their fault. I've taken some into my home to help them out when they lost their support that they had before the rape. Giving them a decision on whether to have an abortion or not is just adding to their burden.
One problem I see with this is that most people consider a fetus a human as soon as there's a detectible heartbeat. Most women don't find out that they're pregnant until eight weeks or more. A heartbeat can be detected around 8 weeks.