toldailytopic: What about abortion in cases of rape?

[surrender]

I haven’t said anything about making abortion illegal IIRC, however I live in the UK where I understand it actually is illegal already except “for rape, maternal life, health, mental health, socioeconomic factors, and/or fetal defects”. However in practice I would say that in the UK if a woman is determined enough to have an abortion then she can pretty much get one nevertheless.
I’ve been rather surprised to find out that in the US abortion is apparently totally legal on request.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law
Therefore your question is not an easy one to answer, but I feel that our UK legislation has got it about right and should go no further.

Thanks—you basically answered my question. Yeah, sounds like you guys have it closer to what I’d find acceptable than over here. There are even stories where failed third trimester abortion babies are set aside to die by themselves. I guess because it’d be illegal to kill it after it’s out of the womb.

Presumably you are not seeking a total legal ban yourself on abortion since you seem to accept rape as an exception. So you may be the one needing to clarify exactly what you are asking about here when you say “make abortion illegal”.

Yes, a total ban may not be reasonable. It seems sensible to seek some kind of complete removal of all bodily fluid/sperm immediately following a rape. If this means having to perform an abortion, then I suppose I'd find it acceptable.

Is this personal experience tangible in some material way or do you simply think you have experienced God?

Tangible.

Strange; it seems to me rather as though they are almost on drugs and perhaps aren’t totally among us but off in a world of their own. “Off with the fairies” perhaps.
I’ve concluded it’s probably a form of escapism from a harsher real world perhaps.

Are these people you’ve met or seen on YouTube? I don’t personally know anyone like you’ve described, but I’ve seen some outlandish spectacles on YouTube.

I disagree, some are in fact born with very little mental abilities and can’t ever be expected to understand the complex issues involving “conscience” (say). I don’t think anyone is simply born with a “conscience” any more than they are born believing in a particular god, such things require learning about and an ability to make reasoned conclusions. Any particular god eventually believed in will usually be the one they are taught to believe in by their family and culture.

When I say “born with a conscience” I don’t mean babies come out knowing right from wrong. But all babies (save handicapped individuals) are born with the capability of developing a conscience. The world isn’t messed up because there’s a minority of individuals who never mentally develop any further than toddlerhood. So, as I said from the beginning, life becomes unfair when folks don’t follow their conscience.

Sorry, but claiming that there really is a particular religious based afterlife is simply a bald assertion which imo is almost certainly not true.

Did the pastor’s little boy who died experience tangible evidence? Did (does) the young prodigy?

 

[alwight]

Is this personal experience tangible in some material way or do you simply think you have experienced God?

Tangible.

In what specific material way that presumably cannot be explained naturally?

Strange; it seems to me rather as though they are almost on drugs and perhaps aren’t totally among us but off in a world of their own. “Off with the fairies” perhaps.
I’ve concluded it’s probably a form of escapism from a harsher real world perhaps.

Are these people you’ve met or seen on YouTube? I don’t personally know anyone like you’ve described, but I’ve seen some outlandish spectacles on YouTube.

Yes, on reflection I was probably being extremely unfair here.

I disagree, some are in fact born with very little mental abilities and can’t ever be expected to understand the complex issues involving “conscience” (say). I don’t think anyone is simply born with a “conscience” any more than they are born believing in a particular god, such things require learning about and an ability to make reasoned conclusions. Any particular god eventually believed in will usually be the one they are taught to believe in by their family and culture.

When I say “born with a conscience” I don’t mean babies come out knowing right from wrong. But all babies (save handicapped individuals) are born with the capability of developing a conscience. The world isn’t messed up because there’s a minority of individuals who never mentally develop any further than toddlerhood. So, as I said from the beginning, life becomes unfair when folks don’t follow their conscience.

For some reason you don’t seem to recognise that life can be very unfair for those who actuality are born handicapped, you simply seem to want them pushed to one side, care to explain?
Apart from that we are all born with very different abilities and capabilities since we are all individuals. Many different cultures exist with different religious beliefs and customs, different gods. Some children are born into poverty and disease while others live in a virtual paradise by comparison. You plainly wear very rosy tinted glasses imo, life is clearly very unfair even if they do follow their consciences.

Sorry but unlike you I can detect no caring involved deity running the show however many young girls or pastor’s sons see visions of beauty or indeed Marion apparitions if they happen to be Catholics.

Sorry, but claiming that there really is a particular religious based afterlife is simply a bald assertion which imo is almost certainly not true.

Did the pastor’s little boy who died experience tangible evidence? Did (does) the young prodigy?

I rather doubt it, kids tend to have vivid imaginations. “Tangible” should mean something we can all detect not simply that someone thought they saw something tangible in a dream.

 

[surrender]

In what specific material way that presumably cannot be explained naturally?

It’s personal.

Yes, on reflection I was probably being extremely unfair here.

For some reason you don’t seem to recognise that life can be very unfair for those who actuality are born handicapped, you simply seem to want them pushed to one side, care to explain?

I have two sons with handicaps. I think I recognize the additional challenge they face.

Obviously, life can be unfair in all sorts of ways. However, that’s mostly because people don’t follow their conscience. They make selfish choices and wrong others in various ways.

Apart from that we are all born with very different abilities and capabilities since we are all individuals. Many different cultures exist with different religious beliefs and customs, different gods.

I’m not sure how this is relevant to my point. The world is not messed up because of these things you’ve pointed out here.

Some children are born into poverty and disease while others live in a virtual paradise by comparison. You plainly wear very rosy tinted glasses imo, life is clearly very unfair even if they do follow their consciences.

You miss my point. Life is not unfair because of their choices; life is unfair because of others’ choices. For example, are there not enough resources in the world to end poverty?

Sorry but unlike you I can detect no caring involved deity running the show however many young girls or pastor’s sons see visions of beauty or indeed Marion apparitions if they happen to be Catholics.

It sounds like you’d recognize the existence of a Creator if He put all suffering to an end. It is ironic that He asks us to recognize His existence before He puts all suffering to an end. I suppose that seems like a lot to ask of us. For some, it’s simply too much to ask.

I rather doubt it, kids tend to have vivid imaginations. “Tangible” should mean something we can all detect not simply that someone thought they saw something tangible in a dream.

Isn’t it tangible to the one who experiences it?

 

[alwight]

In what specific material way that presumably cannot be explained naturally?

It’s personal.

I rather suspected you might say that. I find it strange that presumably the one God of all creation, the God of all of us, usually turns out to be only an individual’s personal concept. Not as something available to all or who can be demonstrated in any common physical evidence that we can all share.
Surely then every theist’s god is personal because their particular specific god actually only ever exist inside their own individual heads, never in anything material that is openly accessible and confirmable by all. Gods are perhaps always personal and private creations even if expressed more openly through the religious beliefs of a specific culture.

“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.” Susan B. Anthony

Yes, on reflection I was probably being extremely unfair here.

For some reason you don’t seem to recognise that life can be very unfair for those who actuality are born handicapped, you simply seem to want them pushed to one side, care to explain?

I have two sons with handicaps. I think I recognize the additional challenge they face.

Obviously, life can be unfair in all sorts of ways. However, that’s mostly because people don’t follow their conscience. They make selfish choices and wrong others in various ways.

What are you talking about? Your sons were presumably not handicapped because of anyone’s moral failings unless you were abusing drugs [say] while pregnant or something? Presumably that was just the way they were born. It just happens, it’s life, no one is to blame, and life is not fair. I too have my own experience of such things. Conscience is also guilt; this is not about guilt this is just about how life is and how to deal with it as well as possible.

Apart from that we are all born with very different abilities and capabilities since we are all individuals. Many different cultures exist with different religious beliefs and customs, different gods.

I’m not sure how this is relevant to my point. The world is not messed up because of these things you’ve pointed out here.

This is also not about any conclusion that life is “messed up”, this is just about how it actually is and how individual humans and cultures deal with it in their own different ways. Believing in supernatural deities and afterlives is perhaps one of those ways to get through life particularly if life isn’t all as wonderful as you might have hoped.

Some children are born into poverty and disease while others live in a virtual paradise by comparison. You plainly wear very rosy tinted glasses imo, life is clearly very unfair even if they do follow their consciences.

You miss my point. Life is not unfair because of their choices; life is unfair because of others’ choices. For example, are there not enough resources in the world to end poverty?

At least we can agree that life actually is generally unfair. What happens in it doesn’t seem imo to be any more than what we might expect in a natural world that has limited resources, nor is there any sign of supernatural assistance.

Sorry but unlike you I can detect no caring involved deity running the show however many young girls or pastor’s sons see visions of beauty or indeed Marion apparitions if they happen to be Catholics.

It sounds like you’d recognize the existence of a Creator if He put all suffering to an end. It is ironic that He asks us to recognize His existence before He puts all suffering to an end. I suppose that seems like a lot to ask of us. For some, it’s simply too much to ask.

I instead think that reasonably convincing signs, available to all, not just for some, that “He” actually exists is what isn’t exactly too much to ask for. Perhaps to help those who don’t get heavenly visions or do blind faith.
You have apparently been gifted with tangible evidence that I personally haven’t, so how can you expect to tell me what I should recognise blindly?
If I were treated to similar such evidence then perhaps I too would indeed recognise “His” existence.

Meanwhile the suffering goes on as usual apparently as a punishment until that all changes, by a loving, caring, involved but rather intangible and inactive god. :think:

Or this could simply be a very natural world doing what it does naturally without the need for any blaming of gods or men or the assumption of guilt (conscience) simply to explain away the apparent inaction of their particular version of god in stopping unfairness and suffering.:idea:

I rather doubt it, kids tend to have vivid imaginations. “Tangible” should mean something we can all detect not simply that someone thought they saw something tangible in a dream.

Isn’t it tangible to the one who experiences it?

A delusion will perhaps seem real enough to the deluded, which is where some material evidence that we can all see would probably help quite a bit.

 

[surrender]

I rather suspected you might say that. I find it strange that presumably the one God of all creation, the God of all of us, usually turns out to be only an individual’s personal concept. Not as something available to all or who can be demonstrated in any common physical evidence that we can all share. Surely then every theist’s god is personal because their particular specific god actually only ever exist inside their own individual heads, never in anything material that is openly accessible and confirmable by all.

God certainly doesn’t always do things the way His creatures want. But as far as “common physical evidence we can all share,” take a look around at His creation and His creatures. The splendor and complexity of His works are certainly “openly accessible and confirmable by all.” If you reject this initial, sufficient (according to Him) evidence, why should He cater to you and offer you additional evidence of His existence?

Gods are perhaps always personal and private creations even if expressed more openly through the religious beliefs of a specific culture.

Not private “creations”; private relationships.

What are you talking about? Your sons were presumably not handicapped because of anyone’s moral failings unless you were abusing drugs [say] while pregnant or something? Presumably that was just the way they were born. It just happens, it’s life, no one is to blame, and life is not fair. I too have my own experience of such things. Conscience is also guilt; this is not about guilt this is just about how life is and how to deal with it as well as possible.

Life is unfair mostly because people are selfish and don’t follow their conscience. People, their choices, are to blame for the majority of bad things in this life.

This is also not about any conclusion that life is “messed up”, this is just about how it actually is and how individual humans and cultures deal with it in their own different ways. Believing in supernatural deities and afterlives is perhaps one of those ways to get through life particularly if life isn’t all as wonderful as you might have hoped.

I never brought up the topic of “how” people deal with the unfairness of life. My responses never had that idea mind. This topic began when I responded, “Life becomes unfair when folks don’t follow their conscience” to your comment, “Life is unfair.” This was never about “how” people deal with it; at least, it never was for me. You want to talk about how I think people should deal with the unfairness of life? Someone cries, “Life is unfair!” Well then, do something about it! Stop whining about it and do something, because much of life is unfair because people sit around and do nothing but complain about how unfair life is while others continue to oppress the less fortunate. As I said, are there not enough resources to end poverty? Of course there are! Why has it not ended? Because people in a position to really help do nothing but sit on their rears and complain how unfair life is. And then to top it off, they blame God for not doing anything about it or assert that the existence of suffering proves that God doesn’t exist. What a copout.

At least we can agree that life actually is generally unfair. What happens in it doesn’t seem imo to be any more than what we might expect in a natural world that has limited resources, nor is there any sign of supernatural assistance.

So, you expect God to step in and clean up our mess for us? He didn’t make the mess.

I instead think that reasonably convincing signs, available to all, not just for some, that “He” actually exists is what isn’t exactly too much to ask for. Perhaps to help those who don’t get heavenly visions or do blind faith.
You have apparently been gifted with tangible evidence that I personally haven’t, so how can you expect to tell me what I should recognise blindly?
If I were treated to similar such evidence then perhaps I too would indeed recognise “His” existence.

No one is asking you to recognize God “blindly” without sufficient evidence. You simply reject the sufficient evidence made available. I grew up in a non-religious home. My sister is agnostic and my brother is a devout atheist. So, why am I the one with faith? I’m not sure, but I recognized God’s existence by the time I could witness His creation with but a whisper of intellectual awareness. I’m no prodigy like that young girl on the video, but I always knew of His existence without anyone telling me. Reasonably convincing signs are available to all. Not all accept what has been made known through creation. From what I’ve learned, those who do often experience further confirmation.

Meanwhile the suffering goes on as usual apparently as a punishment until that all changes, by a loving, caring, involved but rather intangible and inactive god.

Or this could simply be a very natural world doing what it does naturally without the need for any blaming of gods or men or the assumption of guilt (conscience) simply to explain away the apparent inaction of their particular version of god in stopping unfairness and suffering.

Yes, all the suffering in the world has nothing at all to do with man’s choices. Nothing at all. It’s just the “natural” course of things. No reason to blame man. Wouldn’t want anyone feeling guilty, now would we? I mean, all that nasty guilt is just going to humble a man and make him feel remorse, and what good could possibly come from a humble, contrite man? Hmm…maybe one who’d finally get off his butt and stop complaining and make a change for the better?

A delusion will perhaps seem real enough to the deluded, which is where some material evidence that we can all see would probably help quite a bit.

It’s interesting that you chalk up another’s experience as a delusion if you’ve never experienced anything similar. Is it any wonder why I wouldn’t choose to share with you my intimate, personal experiences with God? Just so you can insult me and call me deluded? No thanks.

 

[alwight]

I rather suspected you might say that. I find it strange that presumably the one God of all creation, the God of all of us, usually turns out to be only an individual’s personal concept. Not as something available to all or who can be demonstrated in any common physical evidence that we can all share. Surely then every theist’s god is personal because their particular specific god actually only ever exist inside their own individual heads, never in anything material that is openly accessible and confirmable by all.

God certainly doesn’t always do things the way His creatures want. But as far as “common physical evidence we can all share,” take a look around at His creation and His creatures. The splendor and complexity of His works are certainly “openly accessible and confirmable by all.” If you reject this initial, sufficient (according to Him) evidence, why should He cater to you and offer you additional evidence of His existence?

Sorry I don’t buy that "just look around” stuff. :nono:
I doubt that you could show me anything on Earth without a quite natural explanation. Even if this universe was created by a god there is no evidence afaic of any personally involved specific “God” or anything supernatural.
However I would suggest you look at diseases and natural disasters as tangible evidence of what you might expect to see naturally.

Gods are perhaps always personal and private creations even if expressed more openly through the religious beliefs of a specific culture.

Not private “creations”; private relationships.

However I think gods are probably created in people’s heads and that such “relationships” are imaginary. Sorry if that offends but I’m an atheist, logically I have to conclude that, since there is probably no other explanation imo.

What are you talking about? Your sons were presumably not handicapped because of anyone’s moral failings unless you were abusing drugs [say] while pregnant or something? Presumably that was just the way they were born. It just happens, it’s life, no one is to blame, and life is not fair. I too have my own experience of such things. Conscience is also guilt; this is not about guilt this is just about how life is and how to deal with it as well as possible.

Life is unfair mostly because people are selfish and don’t follow their conscience. People, their choices, are to blame for the majority of bad things in this life.

That’s just a silly assertion and nonsense imo, probably an apologetic designed to let your God off the hook as an explanation for why bad things happen to good people.
It’s not God’s fault it’s all our own fault, we brought it all down upon ourselves, right?
No, I really don’t think so.

This is also not about any conclusion that life is “messed up”, this is just about how it actually is and how individual humans and cultures deal with it in their own different ways. Believing in supernatural deities and afterlives is perhaps one of those ways to get through life particularly if life isn’t all as wonderful as you might have hoped.

I never brought up the topic of “how” people deal with the unfairness of life. My responses never had that idea mind. This topic began when I responded, “Life becomes unfair when folks don’t follow their conscience” to your comment, “Life is unfair.” This was never about “how” people deal with it; at least, it never was for me. You want to talk about how I think people should deal with the unfairness of life? Someone cries, “Life is unfair!” Well then, do something about it! Stop whining about it and do something, because much of life is unfair because people sit around and do nothing but complain about how unfair life is while others continue to oppress the less fortunate. As I said, are there not enough resources to end poverty? Of course there are! Why has it not ended? Because people in a position to really help do nothing but sit on their rears and complain how unfair life is. And then to top it off, they blame God for not doing anything about it or assert that the existence of suffering proves that God doesn’t exist. What a copout.

I say that life simply is unfair, I’m not complaining or blaming any god, it’s just the way it is. So when bad things happen, say a woman living a happy life, perhaps with a family, is raped, then just being raped is bad enough, but nothing can be done to change what has happened, she will have to live with the memory of it. What can be done though is to prevent an unwanted resulting pregnancy from perhaps compounding her problems in the future. That is dealing with a very particular human situation by making human secular choices, no religious doctrine or dogma is required.
Some religionists otoh have a major problem with that because they want to rely on their god to do what is best, and humans interfering and changing what would have happened must presumably be seen as being against the will of their god.
If there are not enough resources for whatever reason in our natural world it’s humans that have to deal with it since there is no obvious sign of activity from your God at least as far as I can tell. Humans will often make choices based mainly on self interest which is, after all, how we have evolved to be, we are not perfect creatures we are natural ones.

At least we can agree that life actually is generally unfair. What happens in it doesn’t seem imo to be any more than what we might expect in a natural world that has limited resources, nor is there any sign of supernatural assistance.

So, you expect God to step in and clean up our mess for us? He didn’t make the mess.

No I don’t expect “God” to do anything, I don’t believe He exists. The world has simply evolved to be as it is, I don’t consider it as being “messed up”. I think perhaps that’s just something you’ve been led to believe from your doctrine, mainly imo to deflect blame away from your God on to us poor miserable sinners, and that the only way out is to do as the preacher man says?

I instead think that reasonably convincing signs, available to all, not just for some, that “He” actually exists is what isn’t exactly too much to ask for. Perhaps to help those who don’t get heavenly visions or do blind faith.
You have apparently been gifted with tangible evidence that I personally haven’t, so how can you expect to tell me what I should recognise blindly?
If I were treated to similar such evidence then perhaps I too would indeed recognise “His” existence.

No one is asking you to recognize God “blindly” without sufficient evidence. You simply reject the sufficient evidence made available. I grew up in a non-religious home. My sister is agnostic and my brother is a devout atheist. So, why am I the one with faith? I’m not sure, but I recognized God’s existence by the time I could witness His creation with but a whisper of intellectual awareness. I’m no prodigy like that young girl on the video, but I always knew of His existence without anyone telling me. Reasonably convincing signs are available to all. Not all accept what has been made known through creation. From what I’ve learned, those who do often experience further confirmation.

You do seem to have got the “god gene” perhaps, but obviously some people just are more theistically inclined than others.
I think believing in gods is a tendency most of us have to varying degrees, and perhaps as a naturally evolved trait. However that tendency doesn’t make any particular god actually true, only that it might help some people to get through life and produce future generations of those likely to believe in gods.
I myself have always felt that a god of some kind might exist but my reasoning doesn’t allow me to believe in any specific, perhaps man-made version. I can’t believe that any involved caring omnipotent deity is actually running the show here on Earth, despite anyone’s apologetic explanations.

Meanwhile the suffering goes on as usual apparently as a punishment until that all changes, by a loving, caring, involved but rather intangible and inactive god.

Or this could simply be a very natural world doing what it does naturally without the need for any blaming of gods or men or the assumption of guilt (conscience) simply to explain away the apparent inaction of their particular version of god in stopping unfairness and suffering.

Yes, all the suffering in the world has nothing at all to do with man’s choices. Nothing at all. It’s just the “natural” course of things. No reason to blame man. Wouldn’t want anyone feeling guilty, now would we? I mean, all that nasty guilt is just going to humble a man and make him feel remorse, and what good could possibly come from a humble, contrite man? Hmm…maybe one who’d finally get off his butt and stop complaining and make a change for the better?

But unlike you apparently I don’t feel guilty, and I don’t need to blame anyone in this natural world except perhaps politicians, despots, theocracies and monarchies, but no gods note.

A delusion will perhaps seem real enough to the deluded, which is where some material evidence that we can all see would probably help quite a bit.

It’s interesting that you chalk up another’s experience as a delusion if you’ve never experienced anything similar. Is it any wonder why I wouldn’t choose to share with you my intimate, personal experiences with God? Just so you can insult me and call me deluded? No thanks.

I wasn’t saying you specifically and we can all be deluded, even me. The trick imo is to validate what is believed to be true with specific material evidence. I even expect to be wrong even deluded unless such confirmation is available to check. If you can’t support your claims materially then yes I probably will say what I think is a more likely natural or rational explanation, which sometimes does seem to cause offence in my experience.

 

[surrender]

Sorry I don’t buy that "just look around” stuff.

I’m afraid that’s an affront to God. He claims this evidence, including what He’s written on your heart, is sufficient evidence for His existence. If you reject this evidence outright, then I’m not sure why you expect God to give you additional evidence.

I doubt that you could show me anything on Earth without a quite natural explanation. Even if this universe was created by a god there is no evidence afaic of any personally involved specific “God” or anything supernatural.

Really? Science is at the point where it can explain everything? I didn’t realize that.

However I would suggest you look at diseases and natural disasters as tangible evidence of what you might expect to see naturally.

Sure, disease is simply the “natural” course of things. Man’s choices have nothing to do with it.

However I think gods are probably created in people’s heads and that such “relationships” are imaginary. Sorry if that offends but I’m an atheist, logically I have to conclude that, since there is probably no other explanation imo.

You have to conclude that I have an imaginary friend just because you can’t fathom another explanation for it? And those who’ve had experiences you haven’t are deluded. I’m seeing a trend here.

That’s just a silly assertion and nonsense imo, probably an apologetic designed to let your God off the hook as an explanation for why bad things happen to good people.
It’s not God’s fault it’s all our own fault, we brought it all down upon ourselves, right?
No, I really don’t think so.

What God? “There is no God,” right? So then, the majority of the suffering in the world is due to MAN. Sorry, but there is no one else to blame.

I say that life simply is unfair, I’m not complaining or blaming any god, it’s just the way it is. So when bad things happen, say a woman living a happy life, perhaps with a family, is raped, then just being raped is bad enough, but nothing can be done to change what has happened, she will have to live with the memory of it.

Oh, but her rape is just “the natural course of things.” No one is to blame. Man? Why, no! Man isn’t to blame. That would mean there’s guilt and we can’t have guilt, because that might lead to remorse and what good is that?

What can be done though is to prevent an unwanted resulting pregnancy from perhaps compounding her problems in the future.

Putting a child up for adoption would compound her problems more than the grief of killing her own child? I’m guessing you don’t know many women who’ve chosen abortion?

That is dealing with a very particular human situation by making human secular choices, no religious doctrine or dogma is required.
Some religionists otoh have a major problem with that because they want to rely on their god to do what is best, and humans interfering and changing what would have happened must presumably be seen as being against the will of their god.

I don’t know what “religionists” you’ve been talking to, but God doesn’t “will” the rape of any woman. The possible resulting fetus isn’t the “will” of God; it’s the result of some rapist’s choice to commit a violent crime against another. But, hey, have you ever heard, “Two wrongs don’t make a right”? Aborting an innocent, growing fetus doesn’t make what that rapist did disappear.

If there are not enough resources for whatever reason in our natural world it’s humans that have to deal with it since there is no obvious sign of activity from your God at least as far as I can tell.

You bring God into this conversation far more than I do. You keep acting as if God is obligated to intervene and fix everything for us. Poverty doesn’t exist due to a lack of resources. Poverty exists due to a lack of exercising conscience.

Humans will often make choices based mainly on self interest which is, after all, how we have evolved to be, we are not perfect creatures we are natural ones.

I’m not even sure I know what this means.

No I don’t expect “God” to do anything, I don’t believe He exists.

Then why do you keep bringing Him into your replies?

The world has simply evolved to be as it is, I don’t consider it as being “messed up”. I think perhaps that’s just something you’ve been led to believe from your doctrine, mainly imo to deflect blame away from your God on to us poor miserable sinners, and that the only way out is to do as the preacher man says?

You say, “Life is unfair” and in the same breath say, “Life isn’t messed up.” Sounds like a contradiction to me.

You do seem to have got the “god gene” perhaps, but obviously some people just are more theistically inclined than others.
I think believing in gods is a tendency most of us have to varying degrees, and perhaps as a naturally evolved trait.

To what degree do you have a tendency to believe in God?

However that tendency doesn’t make any particular god actually true, only that it might help some people to get through life and produce future generations of those likely to believe in gods.

Is it a dominant or recessive gene?

I myself have always felt that a god of some kind might exist but my reasoning doesn’t allow me to believe in any specific, perhaps man-made version.

What makes you think that a god of some kind might exist?

I can’t believe that any involved caring omnipotent deity is actually running the show here on Earth, despite anyone’s apologetic explanations.

Why do you think God is running the show? If there is a God, why must He control everything?

And what do you mean by omnipotent?

Have you ever thought that there are various kinds of power? If there is a God, what kind of “power” do you think He would consider valuable and most effective? Neanderthal kind of power? Might is right! Manipulative kind of power? Is there any other kind of power that isn’t might or manipulation?

If God is infinitely wise, infinitely resourceful, and infinitely good, would He rely on might or manipulation?

But unlike you apparently I don’t feel guilty, and I don’t need to blame anyone in this natural world except perhaps politicians, despots, theocracies and monarchies, but no gods note.

I’m sure you’ve never done anything to make life unfair for another human being.

…The trick imo is to validate what is believed to be true with specific material evidence.

Yep.

I even expect to be wrong even deluded unless such confirmation is available to check. If you can’t support your claims materially then yes I probably will say what I think is a more likely natural or rational explanation, which sometimes does seem to cause offence in my experience.

Maybe it causes offense because you say they’re deluded?

 

[Ktoyou]

Look here, does it make any sense, if someone is raped, to shoot an innocent bystander? I understand the trauma this causes! I have been around it, yet the rapist did the harm, not a little baby. You may feel like you cannot live with your child, well, bear with it out of love for yourself, I say, because that baby is part of you! Then when it is born allow someone to adopt him or her.

I makes me sad, knowing the anguish, yet knowing there is a vengeful reaction to being victimized and I know that part of your feeling, yet the life inside you is not the cause, but the result and that result is not responsible for the cause, you be a better person to yourself by letting a part of you live, rather than adding destruction to victimization.

 

[alwight]

Sorry I don’t buy that "just look around” stuff.

I’m afraid that’s an affront to God. He claims this evidence, including what He’s written on your heart, is sufficient evidence for His existence. If you reject this evidence outright, then I’m not sure why you expect God to give you additional evidence.

It’s not an affront to God if He doesn’t exist, I don’t think it is even that if He does exist. Nothing around us imo is specific evidence of anyone’s particular god or gods, if I’m wrong then simply name something and explain why it has to indicate only a specifically Christian God for you I presume?

I doubt that you could show me anything on Earth without a quite natural explanation. Even if this universe was created by a god there is no evidence afaic of any personally involved specific “God” or anything supernatural.

Really? Science is at the point where it can explain everything? I didn’t realize that.

Then produce an example from something physically here on earth that you think could only be explained by your God and I will try to see if there is a more natural explanation to offer. If we simply don’t know that doesn’t mean that one specific God must therefore be the only answer. What specifically indicates your God?

However I would suggest you look at diseases and natural disasters as tangible evidence of what you might expect to see naturally.

Sure, disease is simply the “natural” course of things. Man’s choices have nothing to do with it.

God created everything including diseases then? Nice work God, thanks a bunch. Or perhaps diseases are all our faults after all?

However I think gods are probably created in people’s heads and that such “relationships” are imaginary. Sorry if that offends but I’m an atheist, logically I have to conclude that, since there is probably no other explanation imo.

You have to conclude that I have an imaginary friend just because you can’t fathom another explanation for it? And those who’ve had experiences you haven’t are deluded. I’m seeing a trend here.

I don’t have to explain what goes on entirely inside your head nor anyone else’s. However If you all agreed on what it was you believed, then that would at least be some kind of evidence of what you believe being true. God would be giving each of you the same message without any need for you to talk to each other, but clearly that is never likely to happen.

That’s just a silly assertion and nonsense imo, probably an apologetic designed to let your God off the hook as an explanation for why bad things happen to good people.
It’s not God’s fault it’s all our own fault, we brought it all down upon ourselves, right?
No, I really don’t think so.

What God? “There is no God,” right? So then, the majority of the suffering in the world is due to MAN. Sorry, but there is no one else to blame.

As I keep telling you life just is how it is, naturally, I don’t blame your God or any deity.
In many ways it has been far worse for humans in the past than now. Suffering is unfortunately what is probably to be expected in a natural place like this, but our challenge is to improve things not simply cast blame. Perhaps you don’t think eradicating smallpox and polio were improvements, perhaps you think it was an affront to God in doing away with two of His diseases?

I say that life simply is unfair, I’m not complaining or blaming any god, it’s just the way it is. So when bad things happen, say a woman living a happy life, perhaps with a family, is raped, then just being raped is bad enough, but nothing can be done to change what has happened, she will have to live with the memory of it.

Oh, but her rape is just “the natural course of things.” No one is to blame. Man? Why, no! Man isn’t to blame. That would mean there’s guilt and we can’t have guilt, because that might lead to remorse and what good is that?

No of course not, clearly the rapist is to blame, I never suggested otherwise. Blame and guilt is not the point while making the best of a bad situation is, however.

What can be done though is to prevent an unwanted resulting pregnancy from perhaps compounding her problems in the future.

Putting a child up for adoption would compound her problems more than the grief of killing her own child? I’m guessing you don’t know many women who’ve chosen abortion?

Firstly as you should know by now I have not been talking about the killing of any children, we have discussed the abortion of a rapist’s zygote as per the title of this topic. I have never suggested that anyone has an abortion for any other reason than they choose it freely for themselves. I do however object to that choice, of what is hopefully best for them and their particular situation, being taken away from them by those perhaps of a more dogmatic disposition.

As far as I know anyway I don’t personally know any women who have chosen an abortion. Nevertheless each case imo should be assessed on its own criteria depending on the particular situation of course. If she has a partner and wants to resume their normal personal relationship asap then being pregnant for nine months by a rapist is hardly going to help imo.
She may even lose that partner if he isn’t exactly the epitome of patience, saintly virtue and tolerance imo.
I have no idea how any particular raped woman will feel about gestating a rapist’s foetus for nine months, the idea may well be utterly repulsive to some if not most. She shouldn’t then imo be compelled to produce the rapist’s child for him, which imo would be cruel and perhaps would further ruin the life she already has. To say nothing about the possible child she may have wanted to produce by her chosen partner instead of the rapist’s, now put on hold presumably.

That is dealing with a very particular human situation by making human secular choices, no religious doctrine or dogma is required.
Some religionists otoh have a major problem with that because they want to rely on their god to do what is best, and humans interfering and changing what would have happened must presumably be seen as being against the will of their god.

I don’t know what “religionists” you’ve been talking to, but God doesn’t “will” the rape of any woman. The possible resulting fetus isn’t the “will” of God; it’s the result of some rapist’s choice to commit a violent crime against another. But, hey, have you ever heard, “Two wrongs don’t make a right”? Aborting an innocent, growing fetus doesn’t make what that rapist did disappear.

I don’t think your God wills anything. Religionists, not me, have to explain why bad things happen to good people while their omnipotent loving caring God does nothing about it apparently, all rather similar to not existing at all if you ask me.
As discussed before a rapist’s zygote just like any other has no nervous system, is not yet a person imo and hey, you were quite content before that it could be aborted if you recall, is it now your second “wrong” here not making a right? :AMR:

If there are not enough resources for whatever reason in our natural world it’s humans that have to deal with it since there is no obvious sign of activity from your God at least as far as I can tell.

You bring God into this conversation far more than I do. You keep acting as if God is obligated to intervene and fix everything for us. Poverty doesn’t exist due to a lack of resources. Poverty exists due to a lack of exercising conscience.

I’ve not suggested that your God does anything, quite the opposite. Poverty exists afaic because this is a natural world filled with individual humans with independent minds all trying to make a living. There is no omnipotent supernatural being macro managing the whole thing and making decisions about everything we do, not that I at least can detect. As individual puny beings ourselves we simply couldn’t be expected to all be united to resolve all of the world’s problems, or even to have the same “conscience” about things, it’s impossible, ridiculous nonsense. Poverty actually exists because in a natural world like this is then it would be very likely, unlike in a world where perhaps the supernatural could simply wipe it all away with a word. If there was no poverty somehow then that might indeed suggest a God, but since that is not the case then I suggest that your God is all the less likely for it, despite any man-made apologetic spin about our supposed consciences and guilt.

Humans will often make choices based mainly on self interest which is, after all, how we have evolved to be, we are not perfect creatures we are natural ones.

I’m not even sure I know what this means.

We are all imperfect individuals making our own choices as to what is best, it is just not realistic imo to think we could ever unite around say a common conscience or cause, your God would surely realise that if He actually existed of course. Religions know that they can say such things about our consciences and of our supposed guilt, else who would they blame instead for bad things happening to good people, God? Oh no.

No I don’t expect “God” to do anything, I don’t believe He exists.

Then why do you keep bringing Him into your replies?

Where specifically have I brought up your God that wasn’t in direct response to something you said regarding “Him”? :liberals:

The world has simply evolved to be as it is, I don’t consider it as being “messed up”. I think perhaps that’s just something you’ve been led to believe from your doctrine, mainly imo to deflect blame away from your God on to us poor miserable sinners, and that the only way out is to do as the preacher man says?

You say, “Life is unfair” and in the same breath say, “Life isn’t messed up.” Sounds like a contradiction to me.

I’ve only ever said that life is as it is and is thus inherently unfair. To be “messed up” it would need to have once not have been “messed up”, when and where exactly was this idyllic place and time now so messed up? :think:

You do seem to have got the “god gene” perhaps, but obviously some people just are more theistically inclined than others.
I think believing in gods is a tendency most of us have to varying degrees, and perhaps as a naturally evolved trait.

To what degree do you have a tendency to believe in God?

I’m not sure I’d call it “God” exactly, an unknown probably unknowable higher power perhaps? I am rather sure however that the Christian involved caring God at least isn’t at all likely to be true.

However that tendency doesn’t make any particular god actually true, only that it might help some people to get through life and produce future generations of those likely to believe in gods.

Is it a dominant or recessive gene?

Clearly dominant in you I’d say.

I myself have always felt that a god of some kind might exist but my reasoning doesn’t allow me to believe in any specific, perhaps man-made version.

What makes you think that a god of some kind might exist?

It’s probably in my genes too, logically there seems to be no other reason for having such a feeling. Why would any specific man-made religion have somehow got it right? :idunno:

I can’t believe that any involved caring omnipotent deity is actually running the show here on Earth, despite anyone’s apologetic explanations.

Why do you think God is running the show? If there is a God, why must He control everything?

I don’t hear from any gods, why don’t you tell me? Isn’t it the Christian belief that God is all powerful, omniscient etc?

And what do you mean by omnipotent?

All powerful.

Have you ever thought that there are various kinds of power? If there is a God, what kind of “power” do you think He would consider valuable and most effective? Neanderthal kind of power? Might is right! Manipulative kind of power? Is there any other kind of power that isn’t might or manipulation?

If God is infinitely wise, infinitely resourceful, and infinitely good, would He rely on might or manipulation?

Why don’t we first establish that your claimed apparently involved caring God actually does anything at all before we delve into such things?

But unlike you apparently I don’t feel guilty, and I don’t need to blame anyone in this natural world except perhaps politicians, despots, theocracies and monarchies, but no gods note.

I’m sure you’ve never done anything to make life unfair for another human being.

Nothing on a world scale no. I don’t think anything ever I’ve done is even remotely the cause of any poverty. Sorry but I simply don’t share your self-imposed irrational guilt about that at least.

…The trick imo is to validate what is believed to be true with specific material evidence.

Yep.

Do you have some? But I suppose as ever it’s a personal secret, it always is it seems, oh well.

I even expect to be wrong even deluded unless such confirmation is available to check. If you can’t support your claims materially then yes I probably will say what I think is a more likely natural or rational explanation, which sometimes does seem to cause offence in my experience.

Maybe it causes offense because you say they’re deluded?

What exactly rules out delusion for you then?

 

[surrender]

Hey, alwight.
I think we’re going in circles now. We’ve certainly covered the original post. If there’s something you find pressing and unresolved for you personally, let me know. Thanks for the discussion. It was…different.

 

[alwight]

Hey, alwight.
I think we’re going in circles now. We’ve certainly covered the original post. If there’s something you find pressing and unresolved for you personally, let me know. Thanks for the discussion. It was…different.

You surrender then I see. :e4e:

 

[surrender]

You surrender then I see. :e4e:

Sure, alwight, if that makes you feel better about yourself, then sure.

 

[alwight]

Sure, alwight, if that makes you feel better about yourself, then sure.

You can call me Al. :chew:

 

[vnctblzn]

If a mother with a toddler does not have the "psychological capacity" to take care of her child, should she be allowed to murder it? What if she can't raise that child properly?

perhaps adoption may be an option.

What if a woman is raped and she goes through with the pregnancy. And then, some days (months, years) after the child's birth, she decides she made a mistake and doesn't want the child anymore?

again, perhaps adoption may be an option.