toldailytopic: Shooting at the Arizona Safeway. How could we help prevent tragic even

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TomO

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Most crimes aren't committed by the insane. In this particular case...maybe. Was it solely his mental status that inclined him to commit the shooting? I don't know.

Dude....he purposely shot a nine-year-old girl. If he's not insane he's beyond-redemption-evil if you ask me. :squint:

But conservative right wingers are against tax-funded just about anything. Perhaps if there were public health care (of which psychological treatment were a part), many cases like this might be avoided.

Perhaps.....but most of us right wingers are against such things because of the high cost as opposed to abysmal quality of such services when performed by the government. I don't pretend to know what the answer is but throwing money down a rat hole is not my idea of a fix. :idunno:

Granted, I'm not sure if this case would have been avoided, given that Arizona already has a law providing for the commitment of the insane given a credible witness...I saw this on the news...nonetheless, in the same news episode, it claimed that Arizona's funding for it had dropped rather substantially. Somewhere in the range of 60 million over 3 years.

So....if the guy wasn't identified by anyone to begin with? :idunno:

....but that's just the case. He was identified.....by quite a few.....but nobody reported him.

What conclusion do you draw from this? :plain:

Back to my original point, though. Most crimes aren't committed by the insane, are they?

One could argue the point in regards to what constitutes "insanity" but according to how the "Professionals" define it you are absolutely correct and have a valid point. I was only thinking about cases like this one when I posted what I did not about crime in general. :)
 

The Barbarian

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First glance makes it look like he's a right wing nutcase. Other than that, not very much.

As opposed to an Islamic nutcase.

Yep. In a weird way, both seem to have depended on a political spin to their religious ideas. The Jihad talk by extremists seems to have made the difference in who he shot, and why.

And we're pretty sure that the Muslim was affected by that, too.

Of course, it's still a good idea to wait until the facts are in.
 

Granite

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The more I read about the guy the more it seems he's not an ideologue of any particular stripe, but just a straight up nutcase.
 

Granite

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http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message?page=1

Eye opening. Couple things:

One, it seems that Loughner latched onto Giffords out of convenience (much the same way Bremer decided to go after George Wallace once he determined Nixon's presidential detail offered too much protection). He was fixated on Giffords's perceived "phoniness," not any particular policy.

Also, it's curious that Loughner's mother is Jewish. Makes me wonder if he decided to describe Mein Kampf as one of his favorite books just to anger/annoy/provoke her. (I also really doubt a guy this scattered ever even read Hitler or Marx.)

Lastly, it sounds like once he stopped drinking and doing drugs, his behavior went straight downhill.

P.S. Whatever happened to his possible accomplice?
 

TomO

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http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message?page=1

Eye opening. Couple things:

One, it seems that Loughner latched onto Giffords out of convenience (much the same way Bremer decided to go after George Wallace once he determined Nixon's presidential detail offered too much protection). He was fixated on Giffords's perceived "phoniness," not any particular policy.

Also, it's curious that Loughner's mother is Jewish. Makes me wonder if he decided to describe Mein Kampf as one of his favorite books just to anger/annoy/provoke her. (I also really doubt a guy this scattered ever even read Hitler or Marx.)

:plain: This doesn't surprise me either:

"I think the reason he did it was mainly to just promote chaos. He wanted the media to freak out about this whole thing. He wanted exactly what's happening. He wants all of that."

Granite said:
Lastly, it sounds like once he stopped drinking and doing drugs, his behavior went straight downhill.

Stopped self-medicating.

P.S. Whatever happened to his possible accomplice?


The guy just turned out to be a cab driver which accompanied him into the gorcery store to get change so he could get paid. :idunno:
 

Granite

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This doesn't surprise me either:

Precisely. This is less about any kind of ideology (not that this cretin had much of one) so much as it is some human black hole deciding to take as many people down with him and get some attention.

Stopped self-medicating.

True. I wonder if he had ever taken anti-depressants?

The guy just turned out to be a cab driver which accompanied him into the gorcery store to get change so he could get paid.

Gotcha.
 

lightbringer

TOL Subscriber
Just a few observations.

Why hadn't anyone turned him in prior to this event for being off his rocker?

Each of the statements given about his odd mental state that I read were, if taken individually not enough to consider him insane (which happens a good bit in our times) but one that liked attention and was willing to disrupt classes or come off as weird (trendy) to friends.

There were two instances that should have caused some type of alarm or concern:

1. His Family: they were the only ones that would have enough time on a daily basis to have any knowledge of changes going on in his overall life, but they probably thought it was youthful rebellion and or drug use but did not see enough violence to concern them, if they were concerned with him in the first place.

A lot of people may disagree with this but that is why when someone is committed to an institution it is done with statements from the family, unless there is criminal activity involved.

2. The School: Most important observation of all: When he was dismissed from college there was a statement made to his family and him that the school was worried about his conduct and that they were afraid that he may cause an incident on the lines of a school shooting. ???( this has not been confirmed but it was a statement made) Why wasn't something done then? By the school officials that saw this? Or the family if they were actually concerned about their son?

Lastly: The victims:

His target was the Congresswoman, that's why he worked his way to within 4 feet of her before firing, an attempt to insure he would hit his target.

All others killed or wounded:
Do not misconstrue my meaning here, it is not to take anything away from his act but to explain why all the others.:


1. He may have intended to inflict as many casualties as possible. ?

2. The crowd was tightly assembled for the speech and after the first shot people were running to get away, in all directions, the subsequent shots were striking people simply due to proximity and congestion but not necessarily specific targets, in order to disperse people for his getaway.

As for him, People are trying to understand why, people are trying to lay a specific motive for his actions (and there may be one?) but there are other possibilities that will probably come out in the future but I doubt that the public will ever know the true reasons behind his action.

1. He may have been born with an abnormality. (mental illness)

2. He may have been raised with questionable guidance.

3. His drug use may have lead to this.

4. He was isolated and a loner and combined with the above factors could create a very explosive/volatile nature.

5. He may just be a bad person that had no personal limits to what he would do in a given instance.

My only real question, to the only people that identified an overall view on his personal conduct was the school. They made serious comments for their reasons for expelling him!? Why did the school and the parents not follow up on all this in a more serious manner?

The unfortunate part of this is, even if the school convinced the parents to seek professional help for their son and he did go to psychiatric therapy, since he had not committed any real violence prior he could have still slipped under the radar even with the observation of professionals, it happens a lot because no matter how good our counseling/therapy is, we can not read peoples minds and there is a small percentage of mental illness (serial killers, psychopaths)(bi-polar individuals) that are actually very intelligent individuals and are able to manipulate people and hide their illness.
 

lightbringer

TOL Subscriber
Stopped self-medicating

:thumb: Could have been the one that upset the apple cart!

Once an individual stops self-medicating there is a danger period between stopping and becoming completely clean...anything can happen during that period!
 
I have highlighted the very helpful solutions to our dilemma. I have removed the references to the Catholic church because it isn't just one denomination that is going to solve the problem. Have a new life in Jesus is what solves the problem, not a church denomination. In essence trading the bad life for a new life in Christ. ;)

great...

but i never got anywhere, morally, spiritually and in many other ways.. until i got serious about the Catholic faith.

i was raised in a Christian home.. and things were good when i was a kid... but when i began to go thro the teen yrs...PROBLEMS!!! VERY long, long story that i dont have time to go into right now.. and you probly dont have time to read... cuz it would take 4ever to tell.. but suffice it to say that disaster ensued!! Even so, i did go through the spiritual regeneration thing (born again)... But i was only on fire for a couple yrs and then... agan, disaster ensued...

anyhow.. i could NOT live a Christian life (well) until i became devout in the Catholic faith, which unfortunately didn't happen until i was much older (than a teenager). i tried other churches.. i tried many things to try to come back to Jesus.. (in the right way... a big way... a committed way). sin kept pulling me down.. Nothing worked except the Rosary and then.. getting back to frequent Mass.... All of Heaven participates at the Mass.. I know this because ... well, i have done frequent Mass and i have been in the situation where i wasn't able to go to Mass.. and of course there was that LONG stretch of time when i was young and foolish and was outside the Church completely. This is something i know about tht you do not... you dont know what its like to be outside the Church and also inside... you only know ONE of those.

The Church is what gave me the power to overcome sin.. and contrary to what a lot of "christians" believe, sin (still) takes pepole into Hell... if not repented of and expiated.. Jesus died for our sins but His work on the Cross does us no good if we do not APPLY it to our souls.. and that is not as "easy" as it sounds... another long story...

anyway... Jesus himself said that not many find the 'narrow' way that leads to eternal life.. He said that even those who do mighty deeds in his name will not necessarily make it (st Lk 13:24)... Oh... wait, i think that's in St Mt 7:13 and or 21.. but that first psg i listed is on the same subject..

There are a lot of unChristian ppl in the Catholic Church, but Big deal... there are a lot of unChristian ppl everywhere...

The Church is separate from what its members do... it is Christ's presence on EArth... and until you have spent time in the REal Presence in silence (for more than a few minutes, preferably alone/undistracted) you will never understand what i mean...
 

lightbringer

TOL Subscriber
Interesting article about Sara Palin's map that the left is making such a big about.

Good find and good point!

Problem is in accuracy, the symbols presented are not indeed the cross hairs on a scope nor a bulls eye on a target, not at least to the trained eye of one that participates in shooting. ? Plausible deniability ?

But in all fairness we have to READ what is said in conjunction with the symbols and that is in fact the message being conveyed, targeting individuals or political establishments!

^^^comment on the bulls eye is incorrect, sorry, I don't use archery targets!
 
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Granite

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Good find and good point!

Problem is in accuracy, the symbols presented are not indeed the cross hairs on a scope nor a bulls eye on a target, not at least to the trained eye of one that participates in shooting. ? Plausible deniability ?

But in all fairness we have to READ what is said in conjunction with the symbols and that is in fact the message being conveyed, targeting individuals or political establishments!

Retrospectively it was an unfortunate choice of image, one way or another.
 

vegascowboy

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Shall we read the full 2nd Amendment?


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.



Does that mean everyone should be allowed to have clips that hold 31 rounds? I don't know, but it sure sounds a lot more like people in an organized group are to maintain weapons, not just *everyone*.

Even though it has been construed as an individual right (and I agree with said right, subject to reasonable regulation) I don't think the right is particularly clear from the actual text of the constitution.

Golly, I never thought to read the whole 2nd Amendment! :yawn:

Go back, look at historical context and the way words and grammar were used and understood by the framers of the Constitution, and then try again.
 

TomO

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Yes, I'm sure that when she said "reload" she wasn't trying to connect the symbols with gun imagery of any kind...

:) Actually I considered it more along the lines of ironic that the evil teaparty crosshairs turned out to be USGS icons while the bullseyes used by the Democratic maps are actual archery/target bullseyes....available in any archery or firearm target range.

.....after all the fussing by the Dems about this map ya gotta appreciate the irony. :chuckle:
 
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