toldailytopic: Legalism: what is it? And how do you deal with it?

[Nick M]

It's not allowing the Holy Spirit to do his job which is to convict of sin and change the other person.

Once again, Paul coudn't be more clear. His teaching comes directly from Christ, and perhaps you just don't understand, like Peter who said what Paul was teaching was hard to understand because it was a gospel of uncircumcision.

Romans 5

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Salvation has zilch to do with your performance.

Romans 6

3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,

6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.

10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is no "maintenance" of salvation either. You are alredy crucified and risen with Christ. You are dead to sin, and alive to Christ. If you reject the gospel as is, you are doomed. I believe you reject it.

 

[Nick M]

Paul said that when he looked at the Law (which is the power of sin) he found in him coveting of every kind. The Law has never done it's work in you. It has not led you to Christ, because it is the Law you serve, and in serving the Law, you have deceived yourselves into believing that you obey it, when Paul says that no one can obey it.

Wrong! Jesus obeyed it on my behalf.

I just wanted to lighten the mood a smidge.

 

[Nick M]

I don't think you understand andyc, myself, or Rom. 5. I will leave it at that.

OK, I can't just leave it at that. Notice Paul said DEATH spread to all men while the doctrine of original sin says SIN spread to all men. I'm with Paul on this one.

And I will leave it at that.

I understand Andy very well. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Don't get cute with semantics. All are dead from one sin. And because you are dead, you sinned.

 

[Nick M]

Romans 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

The law produced covetous desires within Paul, but when he came out from being under the letter of the law by receiving the Holy Spirit, all the desires left. If you can't identify with this, you need to be born again.

Read on beezelbub.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

You have it backwards, and on purpose I think.

 

[Nick M]

I don't understand how people come out boldly and defend the law but when it comes to the Sabbath Jesus abolishes it. You can't have it both ways.

:up:

Which way do you have it? While keeping the law saves nobody for righteousness sake, what happens to Israel who do not keep his covenant he says to keep for all time? I am refering to something Jesus said about the Sabbath, besides it is not wrong to do good on the Sabbath.

 

[chair]

You make a good point about interpreting Jusaism through non-Jewish eyes but to clarify "earn our way back to God" does not assume original sin but that all sin and are separated from God on that basis. I do not believe the doctrine of original sin to be biblical yet would agree we are separated from God if we don't have a Redeamer.

The Hebrew Bible doesn't speak in terms of 'separated from God" and so on. It does not speak in theological terms of that nature at all.

Perhaps you could verify/refute this idea of mine: the Pharisees and Saducees were the epitome of legalism and that is because they:

1) Had a zeal for the Law but felt a need to create for all Israelites specifics of just how to follow the Law. For example, "Don't work on the Sabbath, keep it holy" was too vague so they came up with things like they could carry the weight of a dried fig but not the weight of a wet (unripe) fig on the Sabbath, as if God needed their help in setting forth the law.

2) Having created their own more specific laws they reveled in their ability to perform and so became self-righteous in attitude and to a lesser degree figured they were "good enough" to be accepted by God.

I think Jesus' main beef w/ the legalists was not so much their reliance on their works to be acceptable to God but rather their narrow-minded strictness and disdain for those who couldn't perform as they could. Not that "salvation works" didn't concern him, I'm just speaking of the frequency of disputes he had with his fellow Isrealites.

That would make an interesting thesis: discerning which type of legalism Jesus dealt with most in the Gospels.

I have a huge problem when discussing the Pharisees with Christians. For starters, I consider myself to a large degree one of them.

There is a danger in making the Law a goal in and of itself. I don't think the Pharisees as a group did that, despite the NT attitude towards the Pharisees. I often wonder whether Jesus really said those anti-Pharisee things, or if they crept in later when there was real tension between the Jews and the new religion.

As I have said before, Jesus himself was a Pharisee. He sounds like a Rabbi. Talks like a Rabbi. He even chooses sides in a classic Pharisee legalistic debate (divorce).

Jesus was not the first one who warned of the dangers of getting tied up in legal things and ignoring more important things. Read the Hebrew Prophets. The important things to the Prophets are justice and taking care of the unfortunate. The Law, when followed properly, can help accomplish those goals.

 

[Nick M]

The Hebrew Bible doesn't speak in terms of 'separated from God" and so on. It does not speak in theological terms of that nature at all.

So what is the correct English translation to Isaiah saying your sin seperates you from your God?

There is a danger in making the Law a goal in and of itself. I don't think the Pharisees as a group did that, despite the NT attitude towards the Pharisees.

I don't think the NT authors present it that way. It does say the chief Priests and Pharisees, so I suspect most including leadership, but clearly not all. Many did follow Jesus and he didn't critcize.

I often wonder whether Jesus really said those anti-Pharisee things, or if they crept in later when there was real tension between the Jews and the new religion.

Considering secular history shows Pilate executing him for claiming to be King at the sugestions of the pharisees, I don't know why would question it.

As I have said before, Jesus himself was a Pharisee. He sounds like a Rabbi. Talks like a Rabbi. He even chooses sides in a classic Pharisee legalistic debate (divorce).

Actually, Isaiah said he is God, wonderful counseler, etc. I realize you reject it, but that is your problem and we need not discuss it in this particular topic.

Jesus was not the first one who warned of the dangers of getting tied up in legal things and ignoring more important things. Read the Hebrew Prophets. The important things to the Prophets are justice and taking care of the unfortunate. The Law, when followed properly, can help accomplish those goals.

Jesus said similar things. Showing that it wasn't the first time, you are correct. He said "the law says, but you say" quite a few times.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

I don't think you understand andyc, myself, or Rom. 5. I will leave it at that.

OK, I can't just leave it at that. Notice Paul said DEATH spread to all men while the doctrine of original sin says SIN spread to all men. I'm with Paul on this one.

And I will leave it at that.

Paul who, Paul Shaffer? Paul McCartney? Certainly it's not Paul the Apostle who wrote Romans.

Rom 5:18

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

All men are condemned because of one man's sin. Paul just said so. They are not condemned because of their own sin, but because of Adam's sin. Thankfully, therefore, we are justified because of One man's act, to receive His life. Not because of what we do, but because of what He did.

Rom 5:19

"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were MADE sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be MADE righteous."

This goes back to the original point in vs 12. Paul clearly states that the sin of one man has made us sinners. We were made sinners because of Adam's sin. Those who come to Christ, are made righteous because of His obedience!

You are no more a sinner because of what you do, than you are righteous because of what you do.

Romans 5:20-21

"And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, that, as SIN REIGNED IN DEATH, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Wow, "Sin reigned in death"! People are sinners because they are dead. In Adam, we are all dead, and that is where sin reigns. That is why all men sinned, because all men are dead, and they are all made sinners because of one man's sin. And just as sin reigns in death, grace reigns through righteousness. The Law reveals sin and therefore sin increases under the Law. However, grace abounds over sin. This means that the measure of grace is always greater than the measure of sin. Paul is describing what it means to have an abundant life in Christ.

 

[Krsto]

Salvation has zilch to do with your performance.

Agreed.

There is no "maintenance" of salvation either. You are alredy crucified and risen with Christ. You are dead to sin, and alive to Christ. If you reject the gospel, you are doomed.

Agreed.

 

[Krsto]

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were MADE sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be MADE righteous.

"MADE" is a rather unfortunate translation of kathistemi.

 

[Krsto]

I understand Andy very well. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Don't get cute with semantics. All are dead from one sin. And because you are dead, you sinned.

You got that backwards. Because we sin, we are dead. Please read Romans carefully. Death is the wages of sin. Also, death is the penalty of sin. That is what we got from Adam, the penalty for our sin being death (as opposed to whatever else God could have chosen to be the penalty for sin.)

 

[Lighthouse]

Would you care to expand on that?
Maybe even explain what you think establishing/upholding the law means?

If you desire to sin and you do not because the law says not to then you are upholding the law. But if you do not desire to sin then the law is irrelevant.

 

[Krsto]

If you desire to sin and you do not because the law says not to then you are upholding the law. But if you do not desire to sin then the law is irrelevant.

Excellent distinction and wouldn't we all agree the latter is our goal? Not that we will ever attain sinlessness but we should be advancing in that direction if we are indeed growing in Christ. Jesus is, after all, the pattern son.

Having Christ formed within is the best antidodote for legalism yet invented

 

[andyc]

If you desire to sin and you do not because the law says not to then you are upholding the law. But if you do not desire to sin then the law is irrelevant.

Irrelevant to our righteousness, but not to our witness.

What did Paul mean when he said, "we do not make void the law by faith, but rather we uphold (NIV) / establish (KJV) the law"?

Rom 3:31.

If a person has no natural desire to break the moral law, they won't break it. In this respect they are upholding what the law teaches, but not through legal obligation.

 

[Nick M]

What did Paul mean when he said, "we do not make void the law by faith, but rather we uphold (NIV) / establish (KJV) the law"?

Rom 3:31.

Just what it says. The law is established to lead people to Christ. It proves your guilt. It demonstrates you have failed and are in need of a savior. Don't sit here and lie and say you haven't broken all of the 10 commandments.

 

[Nick M]

Andy, nobody "MAD", "Paul person" "anti religion anti working Christian" supports immorality or sayst it is ok. We can not move to that because you don't even accept the gospel. When you stop "making the cross of no effect", we will move on to other things.

 

[andyc]

Nick M
This message is hidden because Nick M is on your ignore list.

I don't know why I bothered with this guy as long as I did.

Proverbs 17:28 Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace; When he shuts his lips, he is considered perceptive.

Or if he's on ignore :chuckle:

 

[Psalmist]

Proverbs 17:28
Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace;
When he shuts his lips, he is considered perceptive.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool
than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" - Abraham Lincoln

This quote is has been credited to many, but Abraham Lincoln seems to be the most accepted.​

 

[chair]

...Don't sit here and lie and say you haven't broken all of the 10 commandments.

Wow! I did? When?

 

[Krsto]

Irrelevant to our righteousness, but not to our witness.

What did Paul mean when he said, "we do not make void the law by faith, but rather we uphold (NIV) / establish (KJV) the law"?

Rom 3:31.

If a person has no natural desire to break the moral law, they won't break it. In this respect they are upholding what the law teaches, but not through legal obligation.

Exactly. Paul also said the "law is for the lawless," implying there are those who by nature (regenerated Holy Spirit filled nature, that is) do not need an external law because they are going to behave in accordance with it even if no law was given.

To give an example: I don't need a law against dropping acid because I have no desire to drop acid. It's not the law that's keeping me from doing it, it's just my nature. I don't need the law to tell me not to do it but those who are lawless need it, as Paul said.

That is the principle we should be operating on as Christians: transformation by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit in our lives so that we won't need anyone to tell us what to do. We will be self-governed and it will be in accordance to God's will for us.