toldailytopic: Legalism: what is it? And how do you deal with it?

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

No..you are covetous

Yes, I am.

This is exactly why you are going to hell. You, tet, godrulz, Adoration, Jerry Shugart, and most people on this site are all self-deceived. You exalt your self, and worship your will, just like the Pharisee in the temple, having never come to the end of your self. You are self-righteous (you just admitted it).

Paul said that when he looked at the Law (which is the power of sin) he found in him coveting of every kind. The Law has never done it's work in you. It has not led you to Christ, because it is the Law you serve, and in serving the Law, you have deceived yourselves into believing that you obey it, when Paul says that no one can obey it.

 

[ProphecyKid]

Obviously gentiles are not obligated to obey, because they are not under the law. The moral law in written form is not hard for a Christian. I'm not going to be tempted today to covet, lie, steal, murder, commit adultery etc. However, I might be tempted to not go to church, but this has nothing to do with the law, it is a heart issue.



Christ is our sabbath rest, and therefore that law is abolished through faith in Christ.

I don't understand how people come out boldly and defend the law but when it comes to the Sabbath Jesus abolishes it. You can't have it both ways.

 

[andyc]

Yes, I am.

This is exactly why you are going to hell. You, tet, godrulz, Adoration, Jerry Shugart, and most people on this site are all self-deceived. You exalt your self, and worship your will, just like the Pharisee in the temple, having never come to the end of your self. You are self-righteous (you just admitted it).

Paul said that when he looked at the Law (which is the power of sin) he found in him coveting of every kind. The Law has never done it's work in you. It has not led you to Christ, because it is the Law you serve, and in serving the Law, you have deceived yourselves into believing that you obey it, when Paul says that no one can obey it.

Romans 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

The law produced covetous desires within Paul, but when he came out from being under the letter of the law by receiving the Holy Spirit, all the desires left. If you can't identify with this, you need to be born again.

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

Romans 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

The law produced covetous desires within Paul, but when he came out from being under the letter of the law by receiving the Holy Spirit, all the desires left. If you can't identify with this, you need to be born again.

That is the heresy of sinless perfection. NOWHERE does it say that Paul stopped coveting. You are self-deluded. You are going to hell because of your self-righteousness.

 

[andyc]

I don't understand how people come out boldly and defend the law but when it comes to the Sabbath Jesus abolishes it. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not defending the moral law as a means to righteousness. Jesus fulfilled it in us. Now we have his Spirit (nature) which causes us to be righteous by nature. Now we have a natural tendency in Christ to uphold the law.

Romans 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

The sabbath day is a rest day from works, and works are no longer relevant. Therefore Christ becomes our sabbath rest.

 

[andyc]

That is the heresy of sinless perfection. NOWHERE does it say that Paul stopped coveting. You are self-deluded. You are going to hell because of your self-righteousness.

You need to be born again.

 

[elohiym]

You are continuing the same game, interpreting the term "righteousness" in the Christian manner, and assuming that that is what it meant to the Israelites in the Old Testament times.

First, you can not claim to understand how Christian Judaism interprets the term righteousness because you obviously don't understand; and not all people who claim to be Christian interpret it in the same way. So your broad generalization weakens your point. I don't believe we have to keep the law to get into heaven or get right with God; that's your straw man.

Second, it is abundantly clear from the law and prophets what righteousness meant to the Israelites under the old covenant. I don't need to assume anything. For example, Elijah was taken up to heaven (2 Kings 2:11) for doing God's will, which at that time clearly involved keeping the law. Try reading Ezekiel 18 sometime, or the numerous other passages that make my point.

 

[chair]

First, you can not claim to understand how Christian Judaism...

I am talking about Judaism, for which I am fairly well qualified to speak. What "Christian Judaism" makes out of the original Jewish texts maybe something that you are qualified to do- but don't go pretending that that is "real" Judaism.

 

[elohiym]

I am talking about Judaism, for which I am fairly well qualified to speak. What "Christian Judaism" makes out of the original Jewish texts maybe something that you are qualified to do- but don't go pretending that that is "real" Judaism.

Come on, Chair. We don't need to quarrel about this.

You are broadly generalizing about what Christians believe, knowing full well that not all Christians believe the same thing.

I am pointing out that you should not generalize, and have showed you that the old covenant does indeed make righteousness conditional on law keeping.

As for Christian Judaism, I have previously explained that Christianity is essentially a sect of Judaism, not a separate religion. There are a number of sects in Judaism, and you know that.

 

[chair]

Come on, Chair. We don't need to quarrel about this.

You are broadly generalizing about what Christians believe, knowing full well that not all Christians believe the same thing.

I am pointing out that you should not generalize, and have showed you that the old covenant does indeed make righteousness conditional on law keeping.

As for Christian Judaism, I have previously explained that Christianity is essentially a sect of Judaism, not a separate religion. There are a number of sects in Judaism, and you know that.

There is no doubt that Christianity started as a Jewish sect. We may have already argues whether or not it still is. To me at least, it is clearly another religion today. But we can drop the topic, if you like.

 

[Lighthouse]

Simple.
I have no desire to lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, worship other gods etc. This desire comes from a changed heart, the heart of God.

That's not upholding the law.

 

[andyc]

That's not upholding the law.

Would you care to expand on that?
Maybe even explain what you think establishing/upholding the law means?

 

[Krsto]

I always find it annoying when Christians take their world-view, paste in onto Judaism and come up with statements like this. "Earn our way back to God" assumes a Christian viewpoint of Original Sin.

You make a good point about interpreting Jusaism through non-Jewish eyes but to clarify "earn our way back to God" does not assume original sin but that all sin and are separated from God on that basis. I do not believe the doctrine of original sin to be biblical yet would agree we are separated from God if we don't have a Redeamer.

Perhaps you could verify/refute this idea of mine: the Pharisees and Saducees were the epitome of legalism and that is because they:

1) Had a zeal for the Law but felt a need to create for all Israelites specifics of just how to follow the Law. For example, "Don't work on the Sabbath, keep it holy" was too vague so they came up with things like they could carry the weight of a dried fig but not the weight of a wet (unripe) fig on the Sabbath, as if God needed their help in setting forth the law.

2) Having created their own more specific laws they reveled in their ability to perform and so became self-righteous in attitude and to a lesser degree figured they were "good enough" to be accepted by God.

I think Jesus' main beef w/ the legalists was not so much their reliance on their works to be acceptable to God but rather their narrow-minded strictness and disdain for those who couldn't perform as they could. Not that "salvation works" didn't concern him, I'm just speaking of the frequency of disputes he had with his fellow Isrealites.

That would make an interesting thesis: discerning which type of legalism Jesus dealt with most in the Gospels.

 

[Krsto]

andyc - good job on this thread. You have brought in to the discussion the nature of the New Covenant and I never would have guessed there would be so much opposition to what you are saying. This reinforces my conviction that the church as a whole is ignorant of this very fundamental Christian doctrine and pastors are not doing their job if they don't teach on it.

 

[Krsto]

2. I always wonder where "historical, biblical Christianity" was for over 1,000 years, before the protestant movement got off the ground.

It went underground as the visible church came to persecute the spiritual church. We don't know as much as we would like about these groups and individuals because their works were burned and most of what we do know is from what their enemies said about them.

 

[Nick M]

I do not believe the doctrine of original sin to be biblical

Paul couldn't be more clear.

Romans 5

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

And since you said Andyc made good points in the thread, I will correctly assume you are lost and unsaved. Because he is also. He rejects the gospel of grace given to Paul for us.

 

[Krsto]

I like Gino Geraci's definition: When my opinion becomes your obligation (e.g. work-based faiths).

Exactly. It's not allowing the Holy Spirit to do his job which is to convict of sin and change the other person. When God makes us "able ministers of the New Covenant" we let him lead others just as we would like others to let God lead us. We therefore do not obligate others to our standard. We simply serve as an example in word and deed and let the Holy Spirt take care of the rest.

This is very difficult for some churches, particularly United Pentecostal Church, fundamentalist churches, and Catholic, which in my mind are the most legalistic.

 

[Nick M]

There is no doubt that Christianity started as a Jewish sect.

You are making Acts 2 too Jewish. I am not making fun at you chair, somebody else.

I need to be saved.

:up:

 

[Krsto]

Paul couldn't be more clear.

Romans 5

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

And since you said Andyc made good points in the thread, I will correctly assume you are lost and unsaved. Because he is also. He rejects the gospel of grace given to Paul for us.

I don't think you understand andyc, myself, or Rom. 5. I will leave it at that.

OK, I can't just leave it at that. Notice Paul said DEATH spread to all men while the doctrine of original sin says SIN spread to all men. I'm with Paul on this one.

And I will leave it at that.

 

[touched]

Legalism is when outward forces or people try to convince you to do what your spirit inwardly should have already been convicting you of through the Holy Spirit so in short legalism is when man tries to take the place of the Holy Spirit's work in your life.
As for what you should do about it you should put your faith and trust in the belief that Jesus Christ is your only Savior and leave the legalists to war with each other