toldailytopic: Is the death penalty unchristian?

[Rusha]

The death penalty is not effective in lessening murder.

WRONG. There is no possibility that a DEAD murderer will ever have the opportunity to murder again.

This has been demonstrated and proven. It is nothing more then a tool for vengeance, something that is only for God.

Only in your head. The DP is not about vengeance, but rather about PROTECTING society from individuals who have made the decision to use their freewill to murder other human beings.

Besides, people who get the death penalty simply have bad lawyers.

Like Ted Bundy and Richard Allen Davis, huh? Two fine upstanding dudes who, by your standards, would still be alive today.

There are many ways to show the hypocrisy of execution.

Too bad you have not shown even ONE decent argument against the death penalty.

Oh ... and btw, I would also extend the DP to cover child molesters and rapists.

 

[Rusha]

:think: They certainly won't be doing it again.

Exactly

 

[Rusha]

why should we even talk about this when so many babies are being killed?

Because this is a thread regarding the death penalty. lain:

 

[Angel4Truth]

toldailytopic: Is the death penalty unchristian?

Is the death penalty in itself unchristian? No, The bible allows for it:

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.

Now do I think the way its handled these days is unchristian? Yes, in many cases.

The death penalty is not to just be a deterrent to crime, but to punish. (yes i know loads of people dont seem to like the thought of punishment these days where no one seems to think they are accountable for the things they do)

 

[Sum1sGruj]

WRONG. There is no possibility that a DEAD murderer will ever have the opportunity to murder again.

And guess what? Another future murderer is born that day. What you say is not even an argument, it's just another way of stating that the death penalty is only for vengeance. 99% of convicted murderers never murder again. In fact, a sizable amount of them become Christians.

Only in your head. The DP is not about vengeance, but rather about PROTECTING society from individuals who have made the decision to use their freewill to murder other human beings.

It is about vengeance. That's ALL it is. Has nothing to do with protecting society because that is what prison is for.

Like Ted Bundy and Richard Allen Davis, huh? Two fine upstanding dudes who, by your standards, would still be alive today.

They would be in prison, and then they would be subject to God.

Too bad you have not shown even ONE decent argument against the death penalty.

That is your favorite punchline, but it is rarely ever accurate. I can and have attacked the death penalty on so many levels that if it was for the infinite denial and excuses by you and others to want to keep it, this wouldn't even be up for discussion.

Oh ... and btw, I would also extend the DP to cover child molesters and rapists.

Your bottomless conviction of such causes innocent people to get blamed for such things. I have explained this before, and all you did was call me evil.

People like you are so damn ignorant and biased that I simply cannot stand it. It is obvious that the only reason you even put this post up is to aggravate me even further because I'm already up in arms with a garbage poster. Everything about people like you and him is UGLY.
And predictable as well. Your next post is just going to be another form of garbage all over again. And again, and again, and again. Perpetual foolishness.

 

[Town Heretic]

Is it unchristian? No. Is it Christian? Depends on whether you rest on the OT or Romans and how you see or if you see any mitigation in Christ.

The argument over deterrence has always been a little bit of a red herring. Most homicides aren't planned events. They're crimes of passion and no law is going to impact them. The premeditated crime is similarly unlikely to be impacted by that sort of cost analysis and most serious studies tend to back its general ineffectiveness as a deterrent.

To put it another way, murder isn't a rational event. It isn't impacted by rationality.

So the question is one of ultimate deterrence (the dead cannot harm) and retribution over the consideration of mistake and an uncorrectable harm. I oppose an imperfect system that will execute innocent men, has executed them and likely would continue to execute them. It's too high a price to pay for vengeance and we're capable of incarcerating those convicted.

 

[Stripe]

She was guilty, she was caught in the act, by the law she deserved to die.

No, she didn't. You should read what the law says rather than simply believing the charges of a mob.

Jesus had the choice, and choose to abate the death penalty. He even implied she had sinned when he told her to sin no more.

No, he didn't. He was not appointed judge. He had no mandate to pass judgement and carry it out.

The thief at the cross wasn't Jesus judgement.

:AMR:

What are you talking about now?

 

[Stripe]

The argument over deterrence has always been a little bit of a red herring. Most homicides aren't planned events. They're crimes of passion and no law is going to impact them.

So why then did God institute the death penalty on the very idea that it would instil fear into people that they might act right?

The premeditated crime is similarly unlikely to be impacted by that sort of cost analysis and most serious studies tend to back its general ineffectiveness as a deterrent.

And yet no study can be done that will not include rejection of God's standard and the assumption of man's right to act in the way men will act.

We've seen where your justice system gets us. We will not see where God gets us unless we trust and obey Him.

To put it another way, murder isn't a rational event. It isn't impacted by rationality.

All the more reason why great fear of justice is all that will stop it.

I oppose an imperfect system that will execute innocent men, has executed them and likely would continue to execute them.

And I oppose a system where the innocent are left at risk from known murderers.

It's too high a price to pay for vengeance and we're capable of incarcerating those convicted.

Can you think of a situation where it might be good for us that a man was set free where he should have been executed?

Can you think of a situation where it might be good for us that a man was executed where he should have been set free?

 

[Rusha]

And guess what? Another future murderer is born that day.

In the same way that another rapist, child molester, etc. is born every day we lock one up (unfortunately the DP is not utilized in their cases). So, just what is your *brilliant point* again?

What you say is not even an argument, it's just another way of stating that the death penalty is only for vengeance. 99% of convicted murderers never murder again.

Of course they don't.


A SHORT LIST OF MURDERERS RELEASED TO MURDER AGAIN

In fact, a sizable amount of them become Christians.

Even IF that were true, why should it matter? The idea of sparing a murderer's life because they *might* become a Christian doesn't cut it. Guess what ... they may also become a Hare Krishna.

What they don't become is any less of a murderer and threat to society.

It is about vengeance. That's ALL it is. Has nothing to do with protecting society because that is what prison is for.

Spoken like a person whose every thought reeks of vengeance. Until a time comes that YOU can guarantee that no murderer who is released will ever murder again (that includes other inmates, prison personnel, those they happen to run into AFTER escaping or being released from prison, etc.) you have no relevant argument.

They would be in prison, and then they would be subject to God.

IF you truly believe in God, then they would be subject to God regardless of whether they are dead or alive.

That is your favorite punchline, but it is rarely ever accurate.

I don't consider a discussion about the death penalty to be *a punchline*. It is not a humorous issue, at least not to me or anyone else who cares more about the VICTIMS than the scum-sucking slime who MURDERS them.

I can and have attacked the death penalty on so many levels that if it was for the infinite denial and excuses by you and others to want to keep it, this wouldn't even be up for discussion.

Of course you have attacked the DP ... I agree. You have attacked the DP on so many *emotional* levels one might wonder if you are prone to mood swings.

Your bottomless conviction of such causes innocent people to get blamed for such things. I have explained this before, and all you did was call me evil.

Please, for your own sake, do not go there. Your arguments WERE evil ... it is better you let them be forgotten.

However, what I WILL clarify is that my position for over the last thirty years has been that rapists, child molesters and murderers should receive the DP. Like cancer, they are deadly and terminal. We don't just isolate the cancer and tell it "okay, you can live as long as you behave!' ... we cut it out so it will not spread.

Very similar to putting a rabid dog down, really ... the only difference is that Old Yeller was deserving of our sympathy while the type of human, monstrous individuals who murder others are not.

People like you are so damn ignorant and biased that I simply cannot stand it.

Uh oh. The Sumster is now referring to me as *ignorant* (as well as swearing at me). However will I deal with not living down to your expectations?

It is obvious that the only reason you even put this post up is to aggravate me even further because I'm already up in arms with a garbage poster. Everything about people like you and him is UGLY.

LOL ... seriously? You believe that I targeted YOU because you are just that special, eh? Ha ha.

Not everything is about *you*, Sumster. I have been vehemently pro-DP for decades of my life PRIOR to TOL. It doesn't matter if every person I consider a friend on TOL disagrees with me on this topic because it IS that important of an issue.

Now ... don't get hurt in the process of patting yourself on the back, Dudley Do-Right.

 

[Angel4Truth]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rusha again.

 

[Maximeee]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rusha again.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rusha again.

That's probably where most the reps you both get come from- each other :chuckle:

It doesn't matter how much I make the death penalty wrong, you all just have death written in your hearts. Jesus never walked around condemning people to death, and there was plenty and plenty of death in those times. People like you would have a field day with your fault-finding selves in 30AD.

You all want to talk about being like Jesus until it becomes inconvenient, and then you come up with excuses. The only excuse should be that you are an inflicted being. Relay that instead of your ignorant convictions.

 

[Stripe]

That's probably where most the reps you both get come from- each other :chuckle:

:duh:

It doesn't matter how much I make the death penalty wrong.

We know. God still said it's right. What you think is of little consequence to anyone but yourself.

 

[mdshanta]

I don't think there is anything unchristian about the death penalty as long is it is carried out by the ruling authorities such as government. I don't think anyone should be happy or excited about someone's execution though even if it's well deserved in our eyes. Especially since without Christ's shed blood that's exactly what our fate would be.

 

[Town Heretic]

So why then did God institute the death penalty on the very idea that it would instil fear into people that they might act right?

I think brutality of the murderous sort was a far different affair a few thousand years ago. I'm not addressing that period and culture. I trust God knew it far better than I ever will.

And yet no study can be done that will not include rejection of God's standard and the assumption of man's right to act in the way men will act.

I'm just talking about why men tend to commit murder in our times. It's rarely premeditated and you won't and don't impact it with a rational approach, which is what the argument from deterrence is.

We've seen where your justice system gets us. We will not see where God gets us unless we trust and obey Him.

In our country the justice system works pretty well. The vast majority of the guilty are convicted and the innocent wrongly convicted have a substantial instrument to undo the harm...unless they're killed before that can happen, of course. And I don't accept that returning to OT justice is what God has in mind for us. I think Romans stands against it, certainly it gives governments the authority to impose penalty and to do so within the context of an age.

All the more reason why great fear of justice is all that will stop it.

Well, no. The contrary actually. Irrationality doesn't respond to rationality. You're attempting to suggest a consideration in forbearance that simply doesn't follow what we understand is the impulse and emotion driven crime of passion that constitutes the majority of homicides in our time.

And I oppose a system where the innocent are left at risk from known murderers.

Then don't allow for parole and build great prisons. It's not that hard to do either. Now how do you feel about the innocent sent to their deaths?

Can you think of a situation where it might be good for us that a man was set free where he should have been executed?

No. I'd never release a man convicted of murder, or child abuse, or rape, or habitual violent offense. Historically? Barabbas.

Can you think of a situation where it might be good for us that a man was executed where he should have been set free?

Other than Jesus? No. What or who did you have in mind?

 

[S0Z0]

They're crimes of passion and no law is going to impact them.

I agree that under the right circumstances I might not care about facing death.

I might be alone on this, but I think that there are justifiable homicides (rape, molestation, adultery, etc). Some cases do not deserve execution. However, just as someone knows what they are doing when they murder, they will also know that why they murder will determine their outcome. Drug deal went bad - death penalty. Abortion - death penalty. Robbery went bad - death penalty.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

All this talk about God giving authority to the government and not a single person even understands the totality of what that means.

Romans 13:1-3
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.

Anyone who holds to this also has to hold to everything the government does. This includes homosexual marriage.

But wait, you all are completely against homosexual marriage. And so you every person on here who has held to this notion has contradicted their selves.

For all the bigotry a few out of this bunch so willingly put on everyone, it seems God has given me a chance to knock you down a notch.

The truth is that Christianity and government are not meant to parallel with each other period. Government is a worldly affair, Christianity is not. God has given clear signs of this- the Catholic Church lost it's rule, and America along with other Christian dominant countries have gone secular.
Since God has given authority to the government, it is willed that we are not supposed to be a part of it.

I didn't realize this at first, but it is a virtual certainty as far as I can tell with Scripture.
But does that mean that politicians are saved? Government does the will of God, it's living figures are still corrupt at heart, doing things which only God can do.
That is the Sovereign Lord., the one some of you like to bend to whatever fits your bias.

Therefore, while Christians are not supposed to fight the death penalty, they are not supposed to declare that it is man's right to take vengeance when it is God's and God's alone. Via the government, or via the Throne. It all happens how He wills it.

Therefore, this entire thread has been rendered obsolete. Asking if the death penalty is right or wrong is like asking where the edge of the Earth is.
End_

 

[S0Z0]

All this talk about God giving authority to the government and not a single person even understands the totality of what that means.

We do, but as we shall see, you do not.

Romans 13:1-3
Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.

Anyone who holds to this also has to hold to everything the government does. This includes homosexual marriage.

False. You are confused. Paul is in no way saying that God made Obama President, or anyone else to be in charge. Paul is saying that God established authorities in principle. Parents are the authority of their children. Business owners of their employees. Church leaders over their flock. Government leaders over their residents. No specific individuals. Parents usurp God's authority and beat their children, commit adultery, etc. Governments usurp God's authority and make abortion legal. You read Paul wrong.

Therefore, this entire thread has been debunked.

Nope, just your post.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

We do, but as we shall see, you do not.

False. You are confused. Paul is in no way saying that God made Obama President, or anyone else to be in charge. Paul is saying that God established authorities in principle. Parents are the authority of their children. Business owners of their employees. Church leaders over their flock. Government leaders over their residents. No specific individuals. Parents usurp God's authority and beat their children, commit adultery, etc. Governments usurp God's authority and make abortion legal. You read Paul wrong.


Nope, just your post.

Your statements are a complete jump around. You can't handle being wrong, and that is why you talk to people the way you do, deny every shred of everything even if it is self-evident, and act so pretentious. That is your defense mechanism to being wrong about something. Your post is a waste of space.

 

[S0Z0]

Your statements are a complete jump around.

No, they are revealing what the bible says to you. You hate the Bible so you ignore what it says in favor of your theories and man-made concoctions.

You can't handle being wrong, and that is why you talk to people the way you do.

I talk to people the way I do, because they pervert what the Bible says, just like you have regarding Romans 13. I do not like self-righteous morons like you preaching their false gospel publicly.