toldailytopic: How should the USA respond to the attacks on it's Embassies and Consul

[bybee]

To suggest that Christians might have flaws very similar to Muslims doesn't exactly require an 'ivory tower'. Yet my goodness! The angry responses! How dare I suggest such a thing! You would think I posted some sort of outrageous anti-Christian movie trailer on Facebook, or something!

The flaws of Christians are not in the news today. It is the Islamic fanaticism egged on and even commanded by their clergy that is being addressed.
Have you noticed we in America apologize when we have done wrong. We make restitution. We aid our former enemies.

 

[rocketman]

To suggest that Christians might have flaws very similar to Muslims doesn't exactly require an 'ivory tower'. Yet my goodness! The angry responses! How dare I suggest such a thing! You would think I posted some sort of outrageous anti-Christian movie trailer on Facebook, or something!

It is not Christians forming angry mobs, storming embassies and murdering people over a stupid video. That would be the muslims.

Reality shows your nutcase rantings up for what they are.

^^^YUP, I can't remember the last time I read about Christians beheading someone...

 

[The Barbarian]

Serbians during the war in Bosnia.

 

[Stripe]

^^^YUP, I can't remember the last time I read about Christians beheading someone...

:think: There's probably a very good reason for that...

 

[PureX]

The flaws of Christians are not in the news today. It is the Islamic fanaticism egged on and even commanded by their clergy that is being addressed.
Have you noticed we in America apologize when we have done wrong. We make restitution. We aid our former enemies.

That's because our government is not run by our "clergy". And we should certainly be grateful for that. Because there are plenty of "Christians" who suffer from the same fanatic religious bigotry as those Muslims we see on TV. And there are certainly clergy among them who would be willing to stir it up to make a name for themselves. The parallels are obvious to anyone with the courage to look at them.

 

[bybee]

That's because our government is not run by our "clergy". And we should certainly be grateful for that. Because there are plenty of "Christians" who suffer from the same fanatic religious bigotry as those Muslims we see on TV. And there are certainly clergy among them who would be willing to stir it up to make a name for themselves. The parallels are obvious to anyone with the courage to look at them.

NO! This is your way of allowing yourself to sit on the fence and make like a Mugwump! You are conflating two separate entities and situations.
What "might happen" is not on the table right now.
What did happen and continues to happen, four more US Military people were shot by their so called allies
who then fled back to Al Qaida, this is what we must deal with now.

 

[The Barbarian]

Rocket writes:

YUP, I can't remember the last time I read about Christians beheading someone...

(Barbarian mentions Christian Serbs doing it to Bosnians)

Stipe remarks:

There's probably a very good reason for that...

The Bosnians were Muslims, and those Serbs thought that Christians are supposed to kill Muslims.

 

[PureX]

NO! This is your way of allowing yourself to sit on the fence and make like a Mugwump! You are conflating two separate entities and situations.
What "might happen" is not on the table right now.

It's not on YOUR table because you don't want to look at it. But when the thread opened there were calls for Muslim blood; violent retaliation. And when I pointed out that this call for Muslim blood is no different then Muslims calling for our blood, I was jumped on and neg-repped and insulted; further supporting my point. But you only want to see how it's "different', because the actual violence being done is different, when the spirit and intent isn't really all that different at all.

What did happen and continues to happen, four more US Military people were shot by their so called allies
who then fled back to Al Qaida, this is what we must deal with now.

This is what we have been dealing with for decades, because of the way we treated these people in the past, and still do. Our own bigotry toward them has played a big role, here, and is still playing a role in what is happening at this moment.

 

[bybee]

It's not on YOUR table because you don't want to look at it. But when the thread opened there were calls for Muslim blood; violent retaliation. And when I pointed out that this call for Muslim blood is no different then Muslims calling for our blood, I was jumped on and neg-repped and insulted; further supporting my point. But you only want to see how it's "different', because the actual violence being done is different, when the spirit and intent isn't really all that different at all.
This is what we have been dealing with for decades, because of the way we treated these people in the past, and still do. Our own bigotry toward them has played a big role, here, and is still playing a role in what is happening at this moment.

You are a Blockhead. You let nothing in that doesn't agree with your already formed conclusions!
First, if you are addressing me then keep in mind I did not advocate bloodshed, I didn't neg rep you, but I suppose, I did manage to insult you.
What has happened in the past is past. How do we address what is happening now?
What do you suggest? Should we apologize and wallow in our guilt and give them whatever they want? They want us dead!
Lets bring our people and our money home where they belong.
Then, the maniacs ought to be happy? Right? We won't be there.

 

[PureX]

You are a Blockhead. You let nothing in that doesn't agree with your already formed conclusions!
First, if you are addressing me then keep in mind I did not advocate bloodshed, I didn't neg rep you, but I suppose, I did manage to insult you.

The thread and my responses are not all about you.

What has happened in the past is past. How do we address what is happening now?

What is happening now is because of how we as a nation behaved in the past, and in the very recent past. Keep in mind that we have just invaded two predominantly Muslim countries and have killed hundreds of thousands of their citizens. And keep in mind, too, that BOTH Saddam in Iraq AND Al Qaeda in Afghanistan gained power because of our supportive intervention. And then when they wouldn't obey our will we intervened again to get rid of them. And every time we intervene, more Muslims die.

Calling me names doesn't make this ugly truth go away. And it has a whole lot to do with why these people behave the way they do toward us and toward our representatives in their countries. We, of course, prefer to pretend the "past is past" and therefor is somehow magically irrelevant. But it's not past, and it's not irrelevant. Certainly not to all those Muslims who have lost family and friends thanks to our endless 'intervening'. And our own bias and bigotry toward these people, as exhibited in some of the posts on this thread are part of the problem. Because it's this kind of thinking that has been in part causing us to behave so badly toward these people for many decades.

What do you suggest? Should we apologize and wallow in our guilt and give them whatever they want? They want us dead!
Lets bring our people and our money home where they belong.
Then, the maniacs ought to be happy? Right? We won't be there.

What I suggest is that we start by cleaning up our own act before we cause even more death and destruction in that part of the world. But to do that, we have to be willing to admit that we ARE part of the problem. That our arrogant and bigoted attitude toward them is causing us to behave toward them in ways that can't possibly result in anything but a desire for violent retribution.

And yes, getting out of there would probably be a good start, because we both know the reason we have people there is to try and "help them" become what WE want them to be (which will inevitably mean compliant and exploitable).

 

[Angel4Truth]

Keep defending evil and calling good - evil pure x.

Im glad you seem to think innocent Americans deserve to pay.

Why do you hate America so much?

When is your plane leaving so you can go hold the hands of the terrorists?

 

[bybee]

Serbians during the war in Bosnia.

After years of persecution and abuse.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Serbians during the war in Bosnia.

After years of persecution and abuse.

I don't think so. Serbs dominated Yugoslavia, but Tito quickly crushed any sort of ethnic discrimination (he was a Croat/Slovenian, not a Serb). Until Milosevic began a policy of "ethnic cleansing" there hadn't been any ethnic persecution in Yugoslavia.

The Muslims of Bosnia were as secular as the Turks, and the Serbs and Bosnians had lived in peace together during Tito's long reign. One of the things we don't want to hear is that Hitler and genocide isn't just a German phenomenon. The right circumstances and a ruthless leader can make it happen anywhere.

 

[Lighthouse]

That's the Christian spirit! Ride that ignorance, rage, and lust for violent retribution right into the promised land! WHEEEE_HAWWW!

Can you show me that I'm acting contrary to the spirit of Christ?

And if you're going to call someone ignorant don't follow that up with accusations that have no basis in that to which you're responding. "...lust for violent retribution..."? Where do you see that in my response to you?

 

[bybee]

Barbarian observes:
Serbians during the war in Bosnia.



I don't think so. Serbs dominated Yugoslavia, but Tito quickly crushed any sort of ethnic discrimination (he was a Croat/Slovenian, not a Serb). Until Milosevic began a policy of "ethnic cleansing" there hadn't been any ethnic persecution in Yugoslavia.

The Muslims of Bosnia were as secular as the Turks, and the Serbs and Bosnians had lived in peace together during Tito's long reign. One of the things we don't want to hear is that Hitler and genocide isn't just a German phenomenon. The right circumstances and a ruthless leader can make it happen anywhere.

I absolutely agree! The intelligentsia in any country can be swayed and led to support unspeakable behavior if the right leader comes along and spouts the right rhetoric. We tend to think it is only the uneducated, poor people in a society that can be led by charismatic leaders spouting hatred.
During the Detroit riots Doctor, nurses, teachers and any number of professionals were out looting and causing mayhem. The disaffection with "white-ruled" society ran deep and wide.
Perhaps there really is no hope for forgiveness and/or accommodation?
The hatred for America being exhibited by thousands of Muslims all over the Middle-East is so palpable that I see no way to a viable peaceful solution.
If we withdraw completely, then another set of problems shall arise.

 

[The Barbarian]

I absolutely agree! The intelligentsia in any country can be swayed and led to support unspeakable behavior if the right leader comes along and spouts the right rhetoric.

There were PhDs among the Nazi leaders. As Mother Theresa wrote, she began her ministry to the unfortunate when she realized that she had a Hitler inside her. We all do. And pretending that we don't is a good way of letting him out.

Perhaps there really is no hope for forgiveness and/or accommodation?

My understanding of Islam was heavily influenced by the people I worked with and studied with in college. They were mostly Sufis, the most tolerant and pacifistic people you'd want to meet. Entirely different than the Shi'a or Wahabi sects who are the source of so much hatred and violence.

The hatred for America being exhibited by thousands of Muslims all over the Middle-East is so palpable that I see no way to a viable peaceful solution.

Libya is on its way to peace. It's why the terrorists are trying so hard to create disorder there. And its why the average Libyan sided with us, not the terrorists.

If we withdraw completely, then another set of problems shall arise.

We should not cede anything or any group of people to the terrorists.

 

[PureX]

I absolutely agree! The intelligentsia in any country can be swayed and led to support unspeakable behavior if the right leader comes along and spouts the right rhetoric. We tend to think it is only the uneducated, poor people in a society that can be led by charismatic leaders spouting hatred.
During the Detroit riots Doctor, nurses, teachers and any number of professionals were out looting and causing mayhem. The disaffection with "white-ruled" society ran deep and wide.
Perhaps there really is no hope for forgiveness and/or accommodation?
The hatred for America being exhibited by thousands of Muslims all over the Middle-East is so palpable that I see no way to a viable peaceful solution.
If we withdraw completely, then another set of problems shall arise.

That kind of anger and resentment, and desire for violent revenge usually cannot be mitigated. It often lasts for generations, especially when an on running feud ensues as each side seeks revenge for the "attacks" of the other by then attacking then in turn.

The only instance I can think of where such horrible violence has been mitigated is in South Africa, under the amazing spirit and guidance of Desmond Tutu.

 

[bybee]

That kind of anger and resentment, and desire for violent revenge usually cannot be mitigated. It often lasts for generations, especially when an on running feud ensues as each side seeks revenge for the "attacks" of the other by then attacking then in turn.

The only instance I can think of where such horrible violence has been mitigated is in South Africa, under the amazing spirit and guidance of Desmond Tutu.

I believe Mr. Nelson Mandela had a little something to do with it too!
He is one of my heroes!

 

[PureX]

I believe Mr. Nelson Mandela had a little something to do with it too!
He is one of my heroes!

Absolutely! Both Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu are true lights unto the world for their ability to spread forgiveness and peace by example.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

The notion of conducting a 1st world investigation in a 3rd world country and obtaining justice is laughable at best. My hollywood notion is much more plausable than your fantasy that any sort of real justice will be served to these savages.

Dear friend, I am in the U.S. Army, I know for a fact that investigations do in fact occur in Afghanistan and have occurred in Iraq. They may not have fancy CSI level equipment but there is nothing impossible about conducting an investigation in a 3rd world country. They may rely more on eye-witnesses, and circumstantial evidence but they are investigations nevertheless. The CIA has conducted investigations in foreign countries. You say it is implausible but it is nevertheless true. The news is not an accurate picture of what happens down range.