toldailytopic: Gay marriage.

[CabinetMaker]

Laws should not define morality. And morality should not be based on legality. But laws should be based on morality. Morality should define the law.

I agree that they are related, but they are not synonymous.

 

[CabinetMaker]

This makes no sense. You legislate right and wrong to your children (at least we hope you do). Therefore, you legislate morality to your children. A person with a sound mind, and one who truly loves his neighbor, will do everything he can to have the laws consistent with those things that are right and wrong, just as you would as a parent.

I do not legislate to my children, I teach. By example, by experience and by making rules. They learn what is legal, what society expects of them, and what is moral, what God expects of them.

 

[CabinetMaker]

You've lost your mind. What does any of this have to do with the discussion?

Nothing. I was just following you down the path you started.

 

[Lighthouse]

Are you saying you do not cheat on your wife because you know it's wrong, or because it is wrong?

I think the reason people shouldn't cheat is because they don't want to cheat.

Under the Old Covenant, Sin and Crime were synonymous.

Relevance?

It is only fairly recently that we have begun to "rightly divide" the law. And the only reason we have done that is because of a misinterpretation of what "rightly divide" means in the King's English.

Should murder be illegal or not?

More of that "rightly dividing?"

You're an idiot.

Leviticus 20:9 ESV

For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

I don't see any mention of children here.

[/quote]Man's laws or God's Laws?[/quote]
Laws period.

Madman did. Plenty of others here advocate the death penalty for homosexuals for one reason - they are homosexual.

God only ever advocated it for the act, not the "orientation." And madman never said anything about killing them for the "orientation." Stop lying.

I see morality as being higher than law. Law is the basic acceptable behavior. Morals are a higher standard that go beyond the law.

:sherlock:

I think that the drug laws are a waste of time, money and resources. I would support decriminalizing drugs and treating them the same way we treat alcohol.

So it should not be illegal to drive under the influence of drugs or alcohol?

 

[madman]

Steeling, adultery, beastuality, pedophilia, murder, drunkenness are wrong because God says they are wrong. Under the Old Covenant, I would be condemned for them. Under the New Covenant, I can be forgiven for all of these.

Let me approach this from another way.

Not one single homosexual will go to hell for being a homosexual. All men are condemned already, and all men have been justified to receive salvation through Christ no matter what they have done. People go to hell because they do not believe in Jesus, not because they rape, murder, steal, or practice homosexual behavior.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

Forgiveness in Christ is not the issue here. The issue is behavior in this life. It does not matter if something is legal or not, but whether it should be legal or not. An evil person tolerates that which is legal when it should be illegal.

 

[madman]

I do not legislate to my children, I teach. By example, by experience and by making rules.

I feel sorry for you and your family, that you are this unsound of mind.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I think the reason people shouldn't cheat is because they don't want to cheat.

That is certainly part of it!

Relevance?

You are drawing distinctions that do not exist is scripture.

Should murder be illegal or not?

Yes.

You're an idiot.

No more so than you.

I don't see any mention of children here.

Really? Then who is cursing their mother and father?

God only ever advocated it for the act, not the "orientation." And madman never said anything about killing them for the "orientation." Stop lying.

True enough, that is what God said. None the less, there are those that do think that homosexual orientation is worthy of the death penalty, practicing or not.

So it should not be illegal to drive under the influence of drugs or alcohol?

I bleive that I said that drugs should be treated like alcohol which would mean that driving under the influence of anything should be illegal.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Let me approach this from another way.

Not one single homosexual will go to hell for being a homosexual. All men are condemned already, and all men have been justified to receive salvation through Christ no matter what they have done. People go to hell because they do not believe in Jesus, not because they rape, murder, steal, or practice homosexual behavior.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

Forgiveness in Christ is not the issue here. The issue is behavior in this life. It does not matter if something is legal or not, but whether it should be legal or not. An evil person tolerates that which is legal when it should be illegal.

So why should it be illegal?

 

[madman]

So why should it be illegal?

For the same reasons rape, murder, etc., should be illegal. Why do you think it should not?

 

[Lighthouse]

Steeling, adultery, beastuality, pedophilia, murder, drunkenness are wrong because God says they are wrong.

Really? That's why they're wrong? Simply because God said so? So God didn't say they're wrong because they're wrong, but they are wrong because God said they are?

I think you may be quite mistaken.

Under the Old Covenant, I would be condemned for them. Under the New Covenant, I can be forgiven for all of these.

Under the OC you could have them covered with sacrifices, even if you had to be legally punished for some of them, even put to death for some.

Under the NC you are still condemned until you accept His forgiveness. Yet you should still be legally punished for the same exact ones as under the OC. And with the same punishment.

I agree that they are related, but they are not synonymous.

Not all immoral acts should be illegal. I agree. However, all of them should receive negative consequences even if they should not be legal consequences. And depending on the stage of life those consequences should be different. If you have an adult son who lies to you you cannot punish them as you would a kid. But you can still do something to teach them what they have done is wrong. But such would not be necessary if you teach them correctly when they are children by disciplining them properly when they lie to you then.

Or do you disagree? Should we not discipline our children when they lie to us, since that sin can be forgiven?

 

[CabinetMaker]

I feel sorry for you and your family, that you are this unsound of mind.

Actually, my family is doing quite well. My oldest just completed her confirmation class (Covenant Church) and my youngest has just asked to be baptized. May wife and I just celebrated 23 years of marriage. My daughters are not inclined to dress the smutty way they see emulated on TV. All in all, I would have to conclude that I am of sound mind to raise a family where God is worshiped!

 

[CabinetMaker]

For the same reasons rape, murder, etc., should be illegal. Why do you think it should not?

And what reason is that?

 

[madman]

Actually, my family is doing quite well. My oldest just completed her confirmation class (Covenant Church) and my youngest has just asked to be baptized. May wife and I just celebrated 23 years of marriage. My daughters are not inclined to dress the smutty way they see emulated on TV. All in all, I would have to conclude that I am of sound mind to raise a family where God is worshiped!

I wasn't insulting your family. I was insulting your intelligence, based on your hypocritical contradictory statement. Get a clue.

 

[madman]

And what reason is that?

Romans 1 & 13

 

[Lighthouse]

You are drawing distinctions that do not exist is scripture.

How?

And that doesn't answer my question. How is it relevant to legality that under the OC sin and crime were synonymous? That has absolutely nothing to do with what the law should currently be.

Yes.

So what makes that different from homosexuality?

No more so than you.

I don't think you can back that up.

Really? Then who is cursing their mother and father?

An adult, clearly. Not a child.:nono:

True enough, that is what God said. None the less, there are those that do think that homosexual orientation is worthy of the death penalty, practicing or not.

Such as?

I bleive that I said that drugs should be treated like alcohol which would mean that driving under the influence of anything should be illegal.

So you don't, "think that the drug laws are a waste of time, money and resources"?

Also, do you believe you said that or do you know you said it?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Really? That's why they're wrong? Simply because God said so? So God didn't say they're wrong because they're wrong, but they are wrong because God said they are?

I think you may be quite mistaken.

I think the distinction you attempt to make is pointless.

Under the OC you could have them covered with sacrifices, even if you had to be legally punished for some of them, even put to death for some.

Under the NC you are still condemned until you accept His forgiveness. Yet you should still be legally punished for the same exact ones as under the OC. And with the same punishment.

Yes, but now we are only punished under men's laws. Jesus took care of the punishment under God's law on the cross. Yes, there are still acts for which I could be punished with death here and yet still be forgiven by God and welcomed into His kingdom.

Not all immoral acts should be illegal. I agree. However, all of them should receive negative consequences even if they should not be legal consequences. And depending on the stage of life those consequences should be different. If you have an adult son who lies to you you cannot punish them as you would a kid. But you can still do something to teach them what they have done is wrong. But such would not be necessary if you teach them correctly when they are children by disciplining them properly when they lie to you then.

Or do you disagree? Should we not discipline our children when they lie to us, since that sin can be forgiven?

We cannot possibly have a law to cover every possible iteration of every possible situation. We teach our children to be honest. As long as they are honest, they never have to deal with the consequences of lying. That is why morals are higher than laws. Laws can only cover so much. Morals raise the bar and cover a much broader spectrum of behaviors than laws ever will.

 

[ragTagblues]

So it should not be illegal to drive under the influence of drugs or alcohol?

I don't think that is the point CM was making.

Most professionals working with people who have sever substance addictions agree that drug laws are pointless and counter-productive or as CM said a waste of valuable resources.

However the distinction should always be made that driving under the influence of any mind altering should always be illegal. . . . it is dangerous to all members of the public.

And just to stay on topic . . . . .

Gay marriage? Why not just call it a civil union and be done with the whole issue? Marriage and a civil union are no different, only in the name.

So yes to gay marriage!

 

[CabinetMaker]

I wasn't insulting your family. I was insulting your intelligence, based on your hypocritical contradictory statement. Get a clue.

I was merely pointing out that your attempted insult to my intelligence was misdirected. I would question your intelligence based an equating the rules parents make to keep their children safe and being synonymous with legislation.

 

[Lighthouse]

I think the distinction you attempt to make is pointless.

Really? You're mistaken, again.

Yes, but now we are only punished under men's laws. Jesus took care of the punishment under God's law on the cross.

Jesus took care of the punishment in regard to sin, not crime.

Yes, there are still acts for which I could be punished with death here and yet still be forgiven by God and welcomed into His kingdom.

Why is it, in your mind, homosexuality should not be one of those?

We cannot possibly have a law to cover every possible iteration of every possible situation. We teach our children to be honest. As long as they are honest, they never have to deal with the consequences of lying. That is why morals are higher than laws. Laws can only cover so much. Morals raise the bar and cover a much broader spectrum of behaviors than laws ever will.

Relevance?

 

[madman]

I was merely pointing out that your attempted insult to my intelligence was misdirected. I would question your intelligence based an equating the rules parents make to keep their children safe and being synonymous with legislation.

Making rules is legislating.

You are a waste of time.