Three of This Past Week's School Shootings

[Vine&FigTree]

As far as I can tell vine, you believe God does evil.

Evil, by definition, is a rebellion against God and His Commandments. It is therefore impossible for God to do evil, that is, to rebel against Himself and His Commandments.

And you call us open theists heretical. Give me a break.

I don't recall calling anyone a heretic. I certainly have no way of knowing what "Toast" believes. I would agree that it is unBiblical to claim that God did not create every molecule of the universe exactly the way He wanted it created; that someone else was alongside God "in the beginning" forcing God to create Pharaoh when God wanted to create Miss Dolly Dimple.

If you wanted to, you could interpret scripture according to our view, that God does sin

I assume that's a typo

and realize that God did not have to force anyone to murder His Son.

I don't know what you mean by the word "force." God did not "force" Pharoah to not let the people go. God created a human being that WANTED to not let the people go.

It is men who do evil in our world, not God.

As I said, that's true by definition.

All God had to do was send His Son, and He preached the truth, and people were offended by it, and wanted to kill Him.

God did not just send His Son into the world without any idea what the results would be. Before Jesus was incarnated, the Scripture preached that the Messiah would suffer (Acts 3:18; Luke 24:44-46), that God's "Holy Child" (Acts 4:30, KJV) would be molested by the Romans.

God orchestrated the molestation of His Son. Open theists are trying to make God nicer than God.

But those who tortured and murdered Christ are to be blamed, not God. God is holy. But God is also Sovereign. Only creatures can rebel against the Creator. God created human beings in His own Image. We know what God commands. We can be both predestined by a Sovereign God to rebel against God and held responsible by a Holy God for doing so. In the end, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that God is both Sovereign and Holy. There are no Open Theists in heaven; they'll get their doctrine straightened out by then.

 

[Toast]

Yes, that was a typo. oops. I meant to say "God does not sin". Oh btw vine, isnt rape a sin? If you believe so, why would God orchestrate sin? Wouldnt that be sinful and wrong? I thought God does not want anyone to sin? Isnt that why He is sending some people to hell, because He is punishing them for doing something which He commanded them not to? Your view really doesnt make a whole lot of sense in the context of the biblical story, i.e. He would for some wierd reason orchestrate every evil and vile act, which He despises and commands us not to do. It seems to fly in the face of reason does it not? God wants there to be peace, not pain.

 

[Vine&FigTree]

God wants there to be peace, not pain.

Then why does God send any one to hell? Is hell the eternal absence of pain? Do you believe in "Providence," that God sends judgments in this life on sin? Did you check out the verses in the webpage I referred to earlier, "God Sends Evil"?

 

[Toast]

God puts people in hell, so they wont be able to hurt anyone anymore. Its like a prison so to speak. Hell is a place for people who do not want to cooperate with God's plan of peace. Simple as that. Thats why they are going to be punished. Because of their evil that they committed against God's will.

And no, I dont waste my time checking out links. You are fully capable of arguing your points yourself.

 

[Vine&FigTree]

God Sends Evil

God Sends Evil

Toast said, "God wants there to be peace, not pain." I responded, "Why does God put people in hell," a place of eternal pain?

God puts people in hell, so they wont be able to hurt anyone anymore. Its like a prison so to speak. Hell is a place for people who do not want to cooperate with God's plan of peace. Simple as that. Thats why they are going to be punished. Because of their evil that they committed against God's will.

That misses my point. Open Theists say that God has to cover His eyes and cannot even have any mental apprehension of a child being molested in the "high places of Baal" or in the halls of Congress. Toast says that God has a "no pain" policy. But if Toast believes in the traditional doctrine of hell, he believes that God sentences sinners to relentless and eternal torment, the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" that the Bible mentions (Matthew 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28). How can God do this if He can't stand the sight of a few moments of pain in this life?

And no, I dont waste my time checking out links. You are fully capable of arguing your points yourself.

Fine. For Toast's benefit, I will reproduce the verses that I collected and put on a webpage where I argued my points myself, but that Toast won't click to:

Deuteronomy 31:29 "For I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to wrath through the work of your hands."

Joshua 23:15 "Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all the good things have come upon you which the LORD your God promised you, so the LORD will bring upon you all evil things, until He has destroyed you from this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

1 Kings 14:9-10 "but you have done more evil than all who were before you, for you have gone and made for yourself other gods and molded images to provoke Me to wrath, and have cast Me behind your back; {10} "therefore behold! I will bring evil on the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam every male in Israel, bond and free; I will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as one takes away refuse until it is all gone.

1 Kings 21:29 "See how Ahab has humbled himself before Me? Because he has humbled himself before Me, I will not bring the evil in his days. In the days of his son I will bring the evil on his house."

2 Kings 21:12 "therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel: 'Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whoever hears of it, both his ears will tingle.

2 Kings 22:16,20 "Thus says the LORD: 'Behold, I will bring evil on this place and on its inhabitants; all the words of the book which the king of Judah has read; {20} Surely, therefore, I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace; and your eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring on this place." ' " So they brought back word to the king.

Nehemiah 13:18 "Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our God bring all this evil on us and on this city? Yet you bring added wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath."

Numbers 14:35 'I the LORD have spoken this; I will surely do so to all this evil congregation who are gathered together against Me. In this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.'"

Deuteronomy 29:21 "And the LORD would separate him for evil from all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this Book of the Law,

Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,

Judges 2:15 Wherever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn to them. And they were greatly distressed.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Psalm 54:5 He shall reward evil unto mine enemies: cut them off in thy truth.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Jeremiah 11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.

Jeremiah 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Jeremiah 19:3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.

Jeremiah 19:15 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words.

Jeremiah 23:12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 25:32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.

Jeremiah 32:42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

Jeremiah 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

Jeremiah 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

Jeremiah 36:31 And I will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the evil that I have pronounced against them; but they hearkened not.

Jeremiah 39:16 Go and speak to Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring my words upon this city for evil, and not for good; and they shall be accomplished in that day before thee.

Jeremiah 44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they are a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,

Jeremiah 51:64 And thou shalt say, Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring upon her: and they shall be weary. Thus far are the words of Jeremiah.

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth evil and good?

Jeremiah 42:6 Whether it be good, or whether it be evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God, to whom we send thee; that it may be well with us, when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.

Jeremiah 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.

Jeremiah 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Ezekiel 7:3-5 Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations. {4} And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have pity: but I will recompense thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. {5} Thus saith the Lord GOD; An evil, an only evil, behold, is come.

Daniel 9:12-14 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem. {13} As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth. {14} Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Micah 1:12 For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.

Micah 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.

2 Samuel 17:14 And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.

As a libertarian I take special delight in noting that the "evil" which God sends against His enemies is often the army of a depraved Empire. Government armies are among the most violent and evil of all groups that splatter the pages of history. God never says that the idea of armies "never entered my mind," as if to say God is too prissy to let His eyes take note of what armies do. In fact, Scripture plainly teaches that God ordains armies:

Leviticus 26:25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.

Judges 3:12 And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD: and the LORD strengthened Eglon the king of Moab against Israel, because they had done evil in the sight of the LORD.

2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

2 Samuel 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

1 Kings 5:4 But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent.

1 Kings 9:9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

2 Kings 19:7 Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and shall return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land.

2 Chronicles 20:9 If, when evil cometh upon us, as the sword, judgment, or pestilence, or famine, we stand before this house, and in thy presence, (for thy name is in this house,) and cry unto thee in our affliction, then thou wilt hear and help.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

1 Chronicles 5:26 And the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, and the spirit of Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away, even the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, and brought them unto Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan, unto this day.

Jeremiah 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.

Jeremiah 9:16 I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Jeremiah 21:10 For I have set my face against this city for evil, and not for good, saith the LORD: it shall be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall burn it with fire.

Jeremiah 24:10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.

Jeremiah 25:27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.

Jeremiah 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD of hosts.

Jeremiah 29:17 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will send upon them the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, and will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

Jeremiah 42:17 So shall it be with all the men that set their faces to go into Egypt to sojourn there; they shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: and none of them shall remain or escape from the evil that I will bring upon them.

Jeremiah 44:27 Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.

Jeremiah 49:37 For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their enemies, and before them that seek their life: and I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them:

Ezekiel 5:17 So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.

Ezekiel 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

Ezekiel 28:23 For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 29:19-20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army. {20} I have given him the land of Egypt for his labour wherewith he served against it, because they wrought for me, saith the Lord GOD.

Amos 9:4 And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.

OK, Toast; there's all the verses you didn't want to click and read. "The sword" is wielded by evildoers, but they are predestined by God. Evildoers will be judged by God, and God will be vindicated as Holy and Sovereign. These verses should put "open theism" in the dustbin of history.

 

[Memento Mori]

It's not credit. It's the combination of adults, the authority figures and the entire school societal peer pressure structure all lined up against 1 child. Give me a break Granite. No child can come out of that kind of disadvantage without his faith shaken, which is, of course, the goal of the government schools.

Not in my school. Truman High School and Chrisman High School both have Christian after-school clubs and prayer mornings a few times a year. Club 121 is an after school program that allows students to study, pray, and all that jazz with the Bible.

These schools are both in Independence, MO.

 

[Toast]

Okay vine, this is ridiculuous, I did not say God has a "no pain policy". I said God "wants there to be peace". But if some people choose to continually hurt others "against His will", He will lock them up, so they cant hurt anyone anymore. God hates the wicked, because they oppose His will, which is why He is going to punish them. You say, lets not be nicer than God, which I agree with, but vine, consider this, you should not be meaner than God. For our God is a righteous God, He does not sin, nor is He the author of sin. Why would God want there to be sin, when it is clearly against His will? No where in The Bible does it say, "we should sin". God's thoughts are higher than ours, but not lower than ours. Again, I ask, why would God orchestrate that which He despises and opposes? Does He not oppose sin? Does He not tell us in His word to do rightly? It seems to me, you have a hard time answering even the most fundamental questions. God is not the author of confusion vine. But your view leads you into an inextricable bramble of confusion, even making God the author of sin, and not sinful man and the devil.

Also, in the future, please do not misrepresent my position.

 

[Jefferson]

Are you seriously suggesting that God did not create them ("their kings, their princes, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" verse 32)? Or are you suggesting that when God did indeed create them, He didn't know what they were going to do?

The latter.

God didn't know that they would build "high places for Baal?" I certainly agree that God did not command them to do that (and He emphasizes how far removed their actions are from His commandments by saying "it never came into My mind") but God knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 14:24; Isaiah 25:1; Isaiah 46:10) because He created every molecule in history, just the way He wanted it created, because there was no one else alongside Him "in the beginning" when all things were created out of nothing, and so God got His way.

I interpret "it never came into My mind" as a way to emphasize it being contrary to God's Commandments, not a contradiction of God's omniscience. I have no more of a problem with God knowing in advance that Israel would build high places than I do with God knowing in advance that His only-begotton Son would be sexually molested and murdered by Roman barbarians.

Wow. What a stretch. "It never came into My mind" really means it not only did come into God's mind but God thought about it so hard that He predestined it. Okay Vine, whatever you say. If you're going to twist such a clear verse to make it say the exact opposite of what it actually says then I'm probably wasting my time with you. But against my better judgment, I'll press on.

I also asked, "Was there some force or Force on the scene when God created these [sinners] that compelled, coerced, or forced God to create them as thugs, when God really didn't want to?

God didn't create them as thugs. They hardened their own hearts.

Do you agree that God created Judas so that Jesus could be sacrificed (Luke 22:22)?No. And Luke 22:22 doesn't say that. It says, "the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!" The verse says Christ's sacrifice was in God's plan. But it does not say the betrayal was predestined nor any specific person who does the betraying.

Do you agree with the verses I quoted in a previous post that the suffering and sacrifice of the Son of God was predestined before the world was created (Acts 3:18; Acts 2:23; Acts 4:13-28)

No. And that's not what those verses say. Here they are:

Acts 3:18 - "But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled."

Acts 2:23 - "23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you *have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death"

Acts 4:27,28 - "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

These verses all say Christ's death was predetermined but they do not say it was predetermined "before the world was created." When God made Adam and Eve, God had a backup plan for man's salvation in case Adam and Eve fell. God did not know if they would fall but, just in case they did, the cross would be available. When Adam and Eve did sin with their free will, at that time and not before God predestined Christ to shed His blood for man's redemption. That's what the verses you referenced point out.

and that God predestined the human means as well as the salvific end?

No. The shedding of Christ's blood was required but the specific "human means" was not.

 

[Poly]

I interpret "it never came into My mind" as a way to emphasize it being contrary to God's Commandments.

It's not hard to understand an explanation of people doing what is contrary to what God commands. It's not so complex that we would never understand what God was meaning if He just plainly said, "You/They have done something contray to my commandment". And since God is not the author of confusion, He's not going to purposely say the opposite of what He means when it's so very possible for Him to say what He really means and we would so easily get it.

 

[koban]

* David from Boone IA: gets a challenge from Brian to arrange to call into the program to answer some direct questions about his belief that God has conceived and orchestrates every evil, filthy and perverse action, including rape and production of child pornography.

Why get David to call on when you can get Hilston?

 

[Vine&FigTree]

Okay vine, this is ridiculuous, I did not say God has a "no pain policy". I said God "wants there to be peace".

I certainly agree with that. In fact, I am a pacifist, and I believe God commands everyone to beat their "swords into plowshares" (Micah 4). The difference between us, it seems to me, is that you deny that God inflicts pain on those who violate His command to be pacifists. Although I am commanded to be a pacifist, I do not believe God is a pacifist (Romans 12:17-21). You seem to be saying that God is such a pacifist that He can't even LOOK at violence, and it doesn't even enter His mind. That claim, even if it's not your position, is totally contradicted by the Bible.

But if some people choose to continually hurt others "against His will", He will lock them up, so they cant hurt anyone anymore.

I think the Bible says more than mere segregation. I think God sends evil against the wicked.

God hates the wicked, because they oppose His will, which is why He is going to punish them.

by sending evil. Not just locking them up.

You say, lets not be nicer than God, which I agree with, but vine, consider this, you should not be meaner than God. For our God is a righteous God, He does not sin, nor is He the author of sin.

I agree.

Why would God want there to be sin, when it is clearly against His will?

The most horrific sin in all of human history was predestined by God: the murder of His only-begotten Son. God made absolutely certain that this sin would be committed, so that His elect could be saved. He chose the man who would do the job, creating him for this very purpose, just like Pharaoh (Luke 22:22). The Bible says it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born, but it wasn't Judas' choice (Mark 14:21).

No where in The Bible does it say, "we should sin".

Iagree, but the Bible repeatedly says that people WOULD sin, because God predestined them to do so.

God's thoughts are higher than ours, but not lower than ours. Again, I ask, why would God orchestrate that which He despises and opposes? Does He not oppose sin? Does He not tell us in His word to do rightly?

God commands us not to take vengeance, but He Himself does take vengeance (Romans 12:17-21).

God is not the author of confusion vine. But your view leads you into an inextricable bramble of confusion, even making God the author of sin, and not sinful man and the devil.

Sin is the conscious and knowing rejection of God's authority. God cannot sin because He cannot rebel against His own Authority. Only someone created in the Image of God can sin. But God can create a "vessel fitted for destruction" (Romans 9:21-22), a human being who knows God's commandments but is predestined to reject them, that is, predestined to sin. God is not the "author" of sin, in the sense that He cannot be blamed for the actions of His image-bearers. We are to blame. When all is said and done, Judas, Pharoah, Hitler and Stalin will all admit that they made their choices to violate God's commandments as human beings created in the Image of God. They were not forced, and they will own up to their rebellion, they will take full responsibility for their sin, and they will not blame God. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

Also, in the future, please do not misrepresent my position.

I have no desire to misrepresent anyone's position, and waste my time refuting an idea nobody believes in anyway. My desire, in fact, is that you understand your position better than you did before.

 

[Vine&FigTree]

I asked,

Are you seriously suggesting that God did not create them ("their kings, their princes, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" verse 32)? Or are you suggesting that when God did indeed create them, He didn't know what they were going to do?

Jefferson replies:

The latter.

This is a seriously defective theology. Any competent computer programmer can predict what his program is going to do. You're saying God doesn't want murder, yet created beings that, in the 20th century alone, murdered an average of 10,000 people a day, not including abortions. At best, your god is guilty of criminal negligence.

As I read the Bible, God is God. Every molecule in the universe was created by Him just the way He wanted it, because nobody was there to force an all-knowing God to create anything other than the way God wanted to create it, and He knows the end from the beginning because he knows everything He does and everything He creates. There are no surprises for God because there is no force in the universe that can hide anything from God. Nothing exists except that which God created out of nothing, exactly the way He wanted it created.

What is it that you can do right this moment that God does not know and cannot predict? If we start counting down from 10 to 1, and when we get to "1" Jefferson is going to do something without telling anyone, does God know before we count to "9" what Jefferson is going to do when we get down to "1"? Are you saying God won't know what you're going to do until YOU do it? And God didn't know what you were going to do even before He created you? You don't believe the Bible when it says God knows the end from the beginning? (Isaiah 46:10; 41:22,23; 44:7; 45:21; Acts 15:18)

 

[Poly]

You're saying God doesn't want murder, yet created beings that, in the 20th century alone, murdered an average of 10,000 people a day, not including abortions. At best, your god is guilty of criminal negligence.

But yet a God who predestines and plans the molestation of a little girl down to the very second of how long she will have to endure it, and the exact degree of just how much pain she will have to experience, is totally free and clear of criminal negligence.

Oh, that is just so rich. :doh:

So since man is sinful and it is within some to do great acts of wickedness such as murder, am I guilty of criminal negligence when I decided to bring 5 of them into the world?

Btw, you skipped over my last 2 questions/comments to you on this thread. I'd appreciate it if you could go back and address them as well as this one.

 

[Vine&FigTree]

But yet a God who predestines and plans the molestation of a little girl down to the very second of how long she will have to endure it, and the exact degree of just how much pain she will have to experience, is totally free and clear of criminal negligence.

Oh, that is just so rich. :doh:

God predestined and planned the molestation of His own Son, down to the very second of how long He had to endure it, and the exact degree of just how much pain He had to experience, and God is totally free and clear of criminal negligence, because the deed was carried out by human beings created in the Image of God, and when all is said and done, they (the perps) will admit that they are totally responsible, and that God is Holy.

I think the use of "little girls" by open theists is an attempt to engage in emotional manipulation. The molestation/murder of God's only-begotten Son is an even more heinous crime, and yet open theists would rather talk about a lesser crime, just to manipulate readers.

I've quoted the verses that expressly say that the murder of Christ was predestined. If God can predestine the murder of His own Son, why can't He predestine the murder of any of His creatures?

Btw, you skipped over my last 2 questions/comments to you on this thread. I'd appreciate it if you could go back and address them as well as this one.

OK, I'll see if I can find them.

Is it possible for God to bring glory unto himself without having to predestine the molestation of children?

With God all things are possible. That does not answer the question, "What did God actually decide to do?" The Bible answers that question: God predestined evil for His own glory.

It's not hard to understand an explanation of people doing what is contrary to what God commands. It's not so complex that we would never understand what God was meaning if He just plainly said, "You/They have done something contray to my commandment". And since God is not the author of confusion, He's not going to purposely say the opposite of what He means when it's so very possible for Him to say what He really means and we would so easily get it.

You're imposing a rule on the Bible that God is not obligated to observe, and hasn't. The fact is, God often says things in ways which are not straight-forward, didactic, or woodenly literal. When Jesus wanted to command us not to lust, He said "Poke out your eye!" He didn't actually mean "Poke out your eye!" When Isaiah said

For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine

he wasn't talking astronomy, he was talking politics. That prophecy was fulfilled in 539 B.C. when the Medes humbled the Babylonians.

When God says,

They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

it doesn't mean God does not know the end from the beginning. It means their actions were far from conforming to God's Commandments. Can you or Jefferson name a commentator who has written a commentary on Jeremiah, especially one who has written a commentary on the entire Bible, who takes the position that Jeremiah is saying in this verse that God does not know the future, and had no clue that Israel would ever break His Commandments? Only fringe "open theists" are using Jer. 32:35 as a prooftext for their position, I suspect.

 

[Vine&FigTree]

Acts 3:18 - "But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled."

Acts 2:23 - "23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you *have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death"

Acts 4:27,28 - "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.​

These verses all say Christ's death was predetermined but they do not say it was predetermined "before the world was created."

When were they predetermined? The day before? The year before Christ was born? How can ANYTHING be predetermined in the "open theism" view? Is it the very NATURE of God that He cannot be not-open, or is He open most of the time, and closing (predestinating) only occasionally?

What about:

But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.”

He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

When God made Adam and Eve, God had a backup plan for man's salvation in case Adam and Eve fell. God did not know if they would fall but, just in case they did, the cross would be available.

This is just plain goofy, Jefferson! Let me see if I have this right: God didn't even know if the first Adam would fall (even though God had just created Adam, with no pressure from anyone else to create Adam in any way but the way God wanted Adam to be created), but just in case, He predestined the Last Adam, His Son, to be molested/murdered (but didn't predestine the molesters or murderers {despite what Acts 4:27-28 says}), and wrote in the Book of Life the names of those who would be saved from sins God didn't even know they would commit??

When Adam and Eve did sin with their free will, at that time and not before God predestined Christ to shed His blood for man's redemption. That's what the verses you referenced point out.

The verses I quoted affirm that Christ's work for the elect was predestined before the world was created.

No. The shedding of Christ's blood was required but the specific "human means" was not.

How can God predestine the murder of His Son without predestinating the murderer(s)??

 

[BillyBob]

As though my parents have a choice or the means to do otherwise.

Well, you must be close to graduating, so you'll soon no longer be a burden to them.

 

[BillyBob]

It can be but declaring a parent is a "crappy parent" for sending their kids to a public school is arrogant and presumptuous in the extreme. I'm no advocate of public education (nor did I experience it), so don't get me wrong. But for many people there is simply no other alternative.

ureX:

Every parent has a choice. The problem is they usually choose wrongly.

It's easy to be an armchair expert.

Yes, I have read enough of your posts to see that.

 

[Granite]

Well, you must be close to graduating, so you'll soon no longer be a burden to them.

Is this your idea of humor?

 

[Granite]

ureX:

Every parent has a choice. The problem is they usually choose wrongly.



Yes, I have read enough of your posts to see that.

That's not true and you should be willing to admit that. Between single parents, working parents, cash-strapped parents, circumstances beyond anyone's control, and the general Stuff Happened factor, having the luxury of removing your children from public school is not an option every parent has. To say otherwise is flippant and inaccurate.

 

[Toast]

First off, to answer one of your points. When God sends evil against the wicked, that means He is punishing them. I dont think anyone has any problems with God sending punishment against the wicked. Its not evil for the wicked to get whats coming to them, but rather, its good. Though, we should not take vengeance into our own hands, that is, we should not individually take the law into our own hands, but as Paul says, God gave that function to the governing authorities, for they are His ministers, for they do not bear the sword in vain; they mete out wrath and vengeance against criminals. I think you misconstrued my position here. I never said there was anything wrong with God punishing the wicked. In fact, I said the opposite. I said, since the wicked oppose God, he punishes them, because He hates them for the evil they do. But the Bible clearly says that God wants there to be peace, and He takes no pleasure in the death of wicked, and that He opposes evil, and that He would prefer everyone to choose life instead of death, and He wills all to be saved, which makes Him righteous.

Next, help me understand if I am interpreting your position correctly Vine. Its okay if God does wrong, because, as you say, He has the authority to, so its not really wrong when He does it, but its wrong when we do it? Is that correct? Your making our God out to look like a being who has double standards when you say He has predestined every immoral thing in the universe, even though the scripture says He hates evil, and such things never even entered His mind, and He commands us not to do these things, because they are wrong.

Also, I have a theoretical question for you. Isnt it possible for God to be glorified without the existence of evil? Like If, for example, Adam and Eve obeyed God in the garden, and did not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and Satan did not rebel and fall from his beauty, as God originally made him perfect, and no one sinned, and Christ did not have to die for our sins, yet we still loved Him and worshipped Him, wouldnt that have glorified God? If no one sinned, and obeyed His original order to mankind, that is, to not eat of the Tree, and everyone was perfect, and no one had to go to hell, wouldnt they be glorifying God?