This lawyer's headed for hell.

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Nobody said that you did, so kinda interesting that you took my rebuttal of your own puerile accusation as one aimed at you in turn. You might treat TOL as if it's your Facebook feed but I wouldn't class ya as a troll as such.

I won't return the silly little neg.

:e4e:

Return it immediately or I'll notify the Authorities. :darwinsm:

 

[Sherman]

Wow, your avatar looks like a spider. What is that machine?

It's the fictional X-wing space craft from the film Star Wars. TOL users are having Star Wars avatars--if they want-- until April 2nd.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Heck, in some places all you need is a mob and a rope, but outside of the literal judgment of God I think you're wrong.

Perhaps you could explain why you think I'm wrong? Good law is understandable by even children. When the law is simple, everyone can understand it, and therefore everyone is equal before the law. When the law is complex however, requiring lawyers to interpret it for the people, then the law can be used as a weapon against the innocent, and those who can't get as good a lawyer as the one whom they are prosecuting or that they're defending against, meaning that the people are no longer equal in the eyes of the law.

We really don't, which is why most cases stand on appeal.

The only person who has a right to appeal a judge's decision is the judge himself, and only under certain circumstances, such as a case that ends up being outside of his jurisdiction.

God does not give the right to appeal to anyone else.

Spoiler

*And let them judge the people at all times. Then it will be that every great matter they shall bring to you, but every small matter they themselves shall judge. So it will be easier for you, for they will bear the burden with you. *If you do this thing, and God so commands you, then you will be able to endure, and all this people will also go to their place in peace.” - Exodus 18:22-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus18:22-23&version=NKJV

Spoiler

*“Then I commanded your judges at that time, saying, ‘Hear the cases between your brethren, and judge righteously between a man and his brother or the stranger who is with him. *You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small as well as the great; you shall not be afraid in any man’s presence, for the judgment is God’s. The case that is too hard for you, bring to me, and I will hear it.’ - Deuteronomy 1:16-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy1:16-17&version=NKJV

Spoiler

*“If a matter arises which is too hard for you to judge, between degrees of guilt for bloodshed, between one judgment or another, or between one punishment or another, matters of controversy within your gates, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the Lord your God chooses. *And you shall come to the priests, the Levites, and to the judge there in those days, and inquire of them; they shall pronounce upon you the sentence of judgment. *You shall do according to the sentence which they pronounce upon you in that place which the Lord chooses. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they order you. *According to the sentence of the law in which they instruct you, according to the judgment which they tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left from the sentence which they pronounce upon you. *Now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel. *And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously. - Deuteronomy 17:8-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy17:8-13&version=NKJV

No, juries make it less likely that you'll pay for the bias or well intentioned mistake of one judge.

Do you remember what happened in the very first trial by jury?

Spoiler

*Then Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests, the rulers, and the people, *said to them, “You have brought this Man to me, as one who misleads the people. And indeed, having examined Him in your presence, I have found no fault in this Man concerning those things of which you accuse Him; *no, neither did Herod, for I sent you back to him; and indeed nothing deserving of death has been done by Him. *I will therefore chastise Him and release Him” *(for it was necessary for him to release one to them at the feast).*And they all cried out at once, saying, “Away with this Man, and release to us Barabbas”— *who had been thrown into prison for a certain rebellion made in the city, and for murder.*Pilate, therefore, wishing to release Jesus, again called out to them. *But they shouted, saying, “Crucify Him, crucify Him!”*Then he said to them the third time, “Why, what evil has He done? I have found no reason for death in Him. I will therefore chastise Him and let Him go.”*But they were insistent, demanding with loud voices that He be crucified. And the voices of these men and of the chief priests prevailed. *So Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they requested. *And he released to them the one they requested, who for rebellion and murder had been thrown into prison; but he delivered Jesus to their will. - Luke 23:13-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke23:13-25&version=NKJV

One of if not the most wicked judges in all of history found a man innocent, but the jury said give us the murderer and execute the innocent Man! And so the judge listened to the jury and had Him executed according to the will of the people.

I urge you to listen to this sermon on that passage, when you have time.
http://kgov.com/bel/20041115

You only think that because you don't have a real understanding of the system, which is why you lean on that bumper sticker hyphenation.

Then show my how I am wrong. Show me that the system we have today is one that puts fear in the hearts of criminals but not the innocent. Show me that the system we have today approaches God's standard for a criminal justice system, and not man's standard.

When you have over 100,000 cases in a year in federal court alone, you're going to easily find examples where the verdict is arguable.

And why do we have 100,000 cases per year? A good justice system works to make itself obsolete, would you agree? It would work to reduce crime, not increase it. Our legal system today does very little for the good of our nation. The people who work as part of the system are bogged down by legal requirements.

When you have 100,000 cases per year, and many of them go on for a year or longer, it's no wonder that justice isn't guaranteed 100%. When you have 100,000 cases per year, you're going to have more innocent people be caught up in the system than you should.

However, when a system is efficient, it is more likely to deal justice to criminals, and not innocents. When a system is efficient and just, there will not be 100,000 cases per year, there won't be 10,000 cases per year, there won't even be 1,000 cases per year, and I'd even go so far as to say there won't even be 100 cases per year, because when the government fulfils it's role to put fear in the hearts of criminals, there won't be as many crimes committed. A criminal justice system is inherently a feedback loop. If it's not efficient, it will become less and less efficient over time. If it is efficient, then it will quickly become more efficient, and approach the point where it is not needed. If it is unjust, it will become more and more corrupt over time, but if it is just, then justice will always prevail.

There was a system developed by a man a few thousand years ago that was so efficient even God liked it. That man's name was Jethro. You may have heard of him. He was Moses' father-in-law, and a pagan, of all things. Yet the system was so good that God decided to include it when Moses wrote his portion of the Bible. The system that was designed in order to relieve the stress of the people and the authorities.

Here is that system:

Spoiler

*And so it was, on the next day, that Moses sat to judge the people; and the people stood before Moses from morning until evening. *So when Moses’ father-in-law saw all that he did for the people, he said, “What is this thing that you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit, and all the people stand before you from morning until evening?”*And Moses said to his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God. *When they have a difficulty, they come to me, and I judge between one and another; and I make known the statutes of God and His laws.”*So Moses’ father-in-law said to him, “The thing that you do is not good. *Both you and these people who are with you will surely wear yourselves out. For this thing is too much for you; you are not able to perform it by yourself. *Listen now to my voice; I will give you counsel, and God will be with you: Stand before God for the people, so that you may bring the difficulties to God. *And you shall teach them the statutes and the laws, and show them the way in which they must walk and the work they must do. *Moreover you shall select from all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them to be rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens. *And let them judge the people at all times. Then it will be that every great matter they shall bring to you, but every small matter they themselves shall judge. So it will be easier for you, for they will bear the burden with you. *If you do this thing, and God so commands you, then you will be able to endure, and all this people will also go to their place in peace.”*So Moses heeded the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said. *And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people: rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens. *So they judged the people at all times; the hard cases they brought to Moses, but they judged every small case themselves. - Exodus 18:13-26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus18:13-26&version=NKJV

I challenge you or anyone else to come up with a better system than that, that does not stress the people nor the system, that allows for resources to be brought to bear on criminals swiftly, and trials to be conducted within hours, and not years or decades.

That's why we have a system of appeals. But you don't establish the rule by anecdote. The vast majority of cases brought before the bar end with an outcome that remains. And most appeals end with the outcome sustained.

See the verses I provided above on appeals.

Hoover was certainly entitled to his opinion, but that's all it reduces too. Frost was a fine poet. A pithy statement isn't necessarily true simply because it suits and sustains your bias. If you want to exhibit proof it takes argument and authority, fact and reason.

Have I not been providing those?

That's a real knee slapper in some circles, I imagine. And that's how people who find that inspired tend to think...in circles.

So what about what God says about lawyers?

Spoiler

*“If a matter arises which is too hard for you to judge, between degrees of guilt for bloodshed, between one judgment or another, or between one punishment or another, matters of controversy within your gates, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the Lord your God chooses. *And you shall come to the priests, the Levites, and to the judge there in those days, and inquire of them; they shall pronounce upon you the sentence of judgment. *You shall do according to the sentence which they pronounce upon you in that place which the Lord chooses. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they order you. *According to the sentence of the law in which they instruct you, according to the judgment which they tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left from the sentence which they pronounce upon you. *Now the man who acts presumptuously and will not heed the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die. So you shall put away the evil from Israel. *And all the people shall hear and fear, and no longer act presumptuously. - Deuteronomy 17:8-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy17:8-13&version=NKJV

Nothing there... Hmmm, and nothing in the system of judges I referenced above... So that means that, either God forgot to include lawyers when He gave the law to Moses, or they're not needed... Which seems more likely? But what about in the New Testament...

Spoiler

*And as He spoke, a certain Pharisee asked Him to dine with him. So He went in and sat down to eat. *When the Pharisee saw it, he marveled that He had not first washed before dinner.*Then the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. *Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also? *But rather give alms of such things as you have; then indeed all things are clean to you.*“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. *Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. *Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them.”*Then one of the lawyers answered and said to Him, “Teacher, by saying these things You reproach us also.”*And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. *Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. *In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs. *Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’ *that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, *from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.*“Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.”*And as He said these things to them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to assail Him vehemently, and to cross-examine Him about many things, *lying in wait for Him, and seeking to catch Him in something He might say, that they might accuse Him. - Luke 11:37-54 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke11:37-54&version=NKJV

Woah... That's pretty harsh... Jesus really didn't like lawyers... So what makes you think that His opinion of them has changed since then?

Go give Putin a piece of your mind and then get back to me when or if you get the actual point I made.

I was simply stating a fact.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Added the rest of my response, refresh before replying.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Not if you own a good dictionary. :nono:

Accomplice/Accesory after the fact: "Someone who assists another 1) who has committed a*felony, 2) after the person has committed the felony, 3) with knowledge that the person committed the felony, and 4) with the intent to help the person avoid arrest or punishment. An accessory after the fact may be held liable for,*inter alia,*obstruction of justice." - https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/accessory_after_the_fact

*He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just,Both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord. - Proverbs 17:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs17:15&version=NKJV

Let them read this. That ought to do it.

Using logic and reason, and the above, we can deduce that those who assist criminals should be punished the same as the criminal, because they took part in the crime.

(Side note, even those who attempted to commit a crime should be punished as if they had been succcessful.

Spoiler

*If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing, *then both men in the controversy shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. *And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, *then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. *And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. - Deuteronomy 19:16-20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy19:16-20&version=NKJV

)

In the judicial system? To the extent it can be, more often than not. That's what the facts tell us, if we're interested in them.

So if that's true, then don't you think there's something wrong? Shouldn't a justice system serve justice close to 100% of the time, and not just "more than 50% of the time"? Seems pretty broken when you think about it.

That's a tough combo question. To the first part I'd say often, though justice can be like beauty when you talk to different people. It is just that those guilty are declared guilty and punished. Past that point the arguments over what punishment is sufficient begins and the satisfaction on the point varies.

But you just said that justice is served "to the extent it can be, more often than not." Again, shouldn't the answer be "nearly 100% of the time" if it's a good system?

As far as punishment goes, do you think that God might have an opinion on what a sufficient punishment is for a crime? On what should and should not be a punishment? If so, do you think that the punishment we have today for crime matches God's opinion? Or could it be that people don't even consider God's opinion on the matter, let alone know it and reject it?

On comfort, I couldn't tell you. I don't have hard data on that and I'm not going to make a claim without it. I've heard people who lost a loved one walk away from a death penalty conviction without feeling satisfied, because they still have to live with the loss. It's a hard question to answer.

I can almost guarantee you that it's almost 0% who were comforted as much as possible. (Note: I am not saying that no one is comforted at all, just that they are not comforted to the greatest extent possible.)

How do you measure deterred crime? Do locks stop criminals? Some, likely. Do speed limits prevent speeding? I expect they do where there is respect for the law. I know that when speed limits were higher, people drove faster and more died as a result of it. I suspect that principle is in play in the larger question.

You measure deterred crime by how much crime you have. If a justice system properly deters theft, you will not have many cases of theft. If the system properly deters physical assault or injury, then you will not have many cases of such. If the system properly deters murder, rape, adultery, and other capital crimes, there will be very few cases where those crimes would have been committed.

Your questions tell me that you're not asking the right question when it comes to crime and law. You're asking, "How can we stop people from committing crime?" Locks? Criminals will break them. Speed limits? People who don't respect the law will speed. I was told once by friend about his friend who constantly gets speeding tickets. His friend said that they're like permits to drive fast. Drive faster than the speed limit and get a speeding ticket? Pay it off and go back to driving fast. Get another ticket? Pay the fee and drive faster. The friend said something along the lines of: Speed limits only limit the poor in this society. If you're rich, you can drive as fast as you want, as long as you pay the fee for it.

The question you should be asking is, "How do we make it so that people don't want to commit a crime?"

I'll let you think about that for a bit, then I'll tell you how.

He's right in part and wrong in part. The S. Ct. doesn't hear the case merits, but holds on whether the law and verdict were within the allowance of the Constitution. Even so, I doubt those who benefited from the Court's ruling in Brown v The Board of Education would agree with him.

Because when you want a serious and objectively true statement on the judicial system you really can't get better than a comedian with a drug habit.

That's one way of seeing it.

Is it true, though?

He's right. Strike all the laws and you won't have any criminals. lain:

You should read Romans, the greatest treatise of law ever written.

Well if Frank believed it... :chuckle: He also said, "Republicans stand for raw, unbridled evil and greed and ignorance smothered in balloons and ribbons." So he wasn't without opinions.

They're more likely to make a cogent point than either of you? Just a guess, mind you.

 

[JudgeRightly]

They really aren't. A lot of cases, convincing as they are to prosecutors, carry substantive questions that might result in something other than conviction. I've rarely seen a prosecutor who had what he believed was an open and shut case offer a plea, unless it was something desired by the victims family.

If someone is guilty of a crime, then they should be punished in a way that fits the crime.

Don't have much time, but I wanted to address this one. The main reason rape was reduced from a capital crime is that what prosecutors realized is we were inadvertently encouraging rapists to murder their victims.

Even if that's true, why do prosecutors think that they can go against God and say capital crimes should not be punishable by death? (See the verse in a previous post where Jesus rebukes the lawyers.) I guarantee you there's more to it than that, however. How many of those cases went on for more than 1 month? 2? 6? A year? 2 years?

Do you think the reason the rapists were becoming murderers just because they were going to die anyways? Or do you think it might be because the death penalty for rapists wasn't enacted swiftly, instead their case being dragged out by the current legal process?

God tells us in the Bible that if we punish criminals swiftly and painfully, then there will be very little crime that occurs.

I'm leaving off a good deal because of time and because I'm mostly interested in explaining the system in place and defending it from unreasonable impression and attack. What you believe is a better system or would like to see is your business and I'm not invested in arguing whether you're right to hold it.

 

[JudgeRightly]

As with any system where man is involved it gets it wrong now and again. Mostly it doesn't.

Then let's use a system that comes from God. He is infallible, and anything that comes from Him will be righteous. Why are we using something that man has designed?

In order, arguably and you're simply wrong, but you won't listen to reason so I'm not going to spend time on it.

Someone who refuses to discuss saying that someone else won't listen to reason? Pot meet kettle.

I've heard that record. I realized long ago you can't talk people out of an opinion that isn't based in reason and I'm just not interested in trying at this point. On the up side you're making the grudge holder society very happy.

Pot, what do you have to say to kettle? :think:

 

[JudgeRightly]

As with any system where man is involved it gets it wrong now and again. Mostly it doesn't.

Just realized I missed saying something about this:

"Any system where man is involved [Mostly] [doesn't] get it wrong now and again."

That's what you said. Do you really believe that? That man most of the time gets it right?

 

[ok doser]

AB, you're kind of a Troll, yourself, my Brit friend.

he does like to follow me around, doesn't he? :chuckle:

AB is upset again. Poor dear.

better get him a puppy to hug

and some play-doh


:noway:


bad artie! stop eating the play-doh! :sibbie:

 

[Arthur Brain]

AB is upset again. Poor dear.

Yeah man, I'm just crying inside...

AB is the NERVOUS type.

Don't really seem to get anything right about me GM. I'm as much a 'nervous type' as I am a troll on here. Would be nice if you were honest enough to retract that but I won't have a breakdown or anything if you don't.

 

[Arthur Brain]

he does like to follow me around, doesn't he? :chuckle:

:rotfl:

Seriously? You're even trying to pull that one with your record?!

Hey, go report me for stalking you then doofus...

:dunce:

 

[ok doser]

in a rare moment of truthfulness, artie makes a confession:

... I am a troll on here.

:thumb:

 

[Arthur Brain]

in a rare moment of truthfulness, artie makes a confession:

:thumb:

Oh wow, are you predictable. As soon as I typed out my answer to GM I knew you would edit it and lo and behold...

:chuckle:

Oh, and quit following me around...

lain:

 

[Arthur Brain]

Providing reason? Sure. Try my fourth post. :thumb:

TH tried to say that justice is when the victim is returned to the state she was in before the crime. That means he believes that justice is impossible.

I think justice is possible. Had the two criminals been tried and executed by now, we would have justice.

Then you pretty much missed the point, but given your understanding of law and the related that's not really surprising. Remember that thread you started where you tried to school in such and lacked even a layman's understanding?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yeah man, I'm just crying inside...



Don't really seem to get anything right about me GM. I'm as much a 'nervous type' as I am a troll on here. Would be nice if you were honest enough to retract that but I won't have a breakdown or anything if you don't.

It looks as if AB, along with being the "NERVOUS" type of Liberal, also tends to feel persecuted. I also see a "Hint of Paranoia," if I might add.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

AB seems to have a rather odd fear that he's being followed around TOL. I hope he's not hearing voices, as well?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Then you pretty much missed the point, but given your understanding of law and the related that's not really surprising. Remember that thread you started where you tried to school in such and lacked even a layman's understanding?

For a "Liberal Brit" you seem to, "supposedly" KNOW a lot about "U.S.A. Law?"

 

[ok doser]

For a "Liberal Brit" you seem to, "supposedly" KNOW a lot about "U.S.A. Law?"

have you noticed he's picked up town's retarded style of expression?

"the related"

and

"in such" ??? :freak:



wot

a

tard

 

[Arthur Brain]

It looks as if AB, along with being the "NERVOUS" type of Liberal, also tends to feel persecuted. I also see a "Hint of Paranoia," if I might add.

Is it really edifying witness on your part to go on like this? I'm neither nervous, paranoid or feel persecuted. Been here ten years dude...

Why do you act like this?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It appears as if "Liberals" are the same ALL over the world. As you've no doubt already observed, I'm very Conservative thus, a Liberal and a Conservative in today's world will NEVER have a "Meeting of the Minds." We will forever be at loggerheads with one another.