This day have I begotten you

[freelight]

Who, What is 'God' really?

Who, What is 'God' really?

pj wrote:

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is equal with God? Do you believe that Jesus is fully man and fully God?

Do note that various beliefs within Christendom or among followers of Jesus may differ in their interpretation of scripture, religious tradition or doctrinal concepts, particularly regarding 'Christology'.

Does Jesus NEED to be equal with 'God'? Is that necessary? According to whom?

'God' in reality is who and what 'God' IS...no matter what name or form you superimpose or label Him/Her/It with. - Absolute Reality IS what It IS, here, now and forever, timelessly and infinitely so. It doesn't need space, time, name or form to BE. 'God' from this view is pure Spirit, incorporeal, without space, time or dimensions, but his Presence pervades all, fills all, permeates all. This creative energy-light-consciousness fills the entirety of existence, for nothing can be with out IT.

Of course we are discussing theology here within a biblical context, so we use the nomenclature of the religious traditions associated with the Bible, using names and forms of 'God', and various doctrinal beliefs. But 'Real God' as absolute Reality, exists eternally, infinitely, omnipresently, as the Infinite One All-Supreme Being. There are aspects of Deity that are unknowable....and knowable....indefinite...and definite,...without form....and with form. God includes all, and transcends all....is all.

I believe that no one is greater than the Father who is the only true God.

I believe that the spirit son, the logos, was sent to dwell in Jesus, a man, to bring us an understanding of his God. I believe that Jesus was the body God prepared for his logos.

I believe that Jesus Christ is now Lord of all creation, made so by his God and our God.

The logos is a FORM of God, not God. The logos is a created god, the word of the Father. A spirit.

Keypurr has been sharing this view for years here,....and it has yet been shown what advantage or benefit that a traditional orthodox Trinitarian Christology....has over this view, except the claim that a Trinitarian view of God is 'orthodox' and his view is 'heterodoxical',...and do note,...this doesn't mean much except to those who define the terms and then deem which is correct or not. Its pretty much a dogmatic assumption qualified by a "because I say so", or..."church creed and tradition holds this as being true, so I believe it"...such is mere doctrinal opinion, personal belief or one's preferred Christological model. Any are free to believe or interpret the scriptures as they see fit, of course, hence the many different 'translations'.

Furthermore,...Jesus Christ is still all the scriptures say about him (and more depending on what other resources you reference on Jesus), no matter what Christology you hold to,...and reigns as the Messiah-Son of the Father-God (YHWH), being all the scriptures proclaim (and more),...so what is lost? in an Adoptionist view, even in an Arian view? They all belief God sent His Son, and that thru right knowledge, faith and reception of the Messiah-Son Jesus....eternal life, enlightenment, freedom, salvation, immortality is given,...the Son is the way, truth and life, the DOOR to God the Father,....Jesus is the LIGHT. This is all universally believed in one form or another. God is not diminished, for God is always God....his absolute unity, glory of Being, Supreme Identity, Indivisible Spirit....forever IS.

Aumen!

God is reigning with or without our permission, theological approval or Christological dissertations.....these things are fine, sure.....but the Father is seeking those who will worship him in spirit and in reality (in the depth of being). The Father-God scans the earth and his Spirit draws those true seekers into His holy Heart, whereby they SEE God (in spiritual seeing, as Spirit) and therefore worship the Father of spirits. Only One Deity BEING. One true and Universal Father-Mother God, the Fountain-source of all.

It ever holds,...that you may know this One God, and Jesus, the anointed whom He sent, who represents Him. - this is eternal life.

 

[daqq]

I believe that no one is greater than the Father who is the only true God.

I believe that the spirit son, the logos, was sent to dwell in Jesus, a man, to bring us an understanding of his God. I believe that Jesus was the body God prepared for his logos.

I believe that Jesus Christ is now Lord of all creation, made so by his God and our God.

The logos is a FORM of God, not God. The logos is a created god, the word of the Father. A spirit.

I posted what follows below in another thread yesterday, and got no response, because most people do not actually believe the scripture but are rather told that they are believing what the scripture teaches when they believe what their pastor, priest, or teacher says. People have this strange idea that there is only one God; so if "Jesus is God" then it absolutely necessarily means "God Almighty" in their minds. But that is not how elohim and theos are used in the writings.

That is essentially the whole problem in a nutshell and why Trinitarianism and most all other offshoots supposedly based on the scripture are such a mess. According to the scripture and the Testimony of Messiah there is only one true God but He is not the only god. That is why Trinitarianism tries to say that there are three persons but one God, and why Oneness and Modalists try to say that they three are all the same person wearing different "hats" at different times and manifestations. It is all bogus and proved false by the scripture in various places.

John 10:32-36 ASV
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),
36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Hebrews 1:7-9 ASV
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels winds, And his ministers a flame of fire:
8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

John 20:17 ASV
17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

John 17:1-3 ASV
1 These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the Son may glorify thee:
2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life.
3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

There is not just one god; but there is only one true God who is the Father. :thumb:

 

[keypurr]

I posted what follows below in another thread yesterday, and got no response, because most people do not actually believe the scripture but are rather told that they are believing what the scripture teaches when they believe what their pastor, priest, or teacher says. People have this strange idea that there is only one God; so if "Jesus is God" then it absolutely necessarily means "God Almighty" in their minds. But that is not how elohim and theos are used in the writings.

That is essentially the whole problem in a nutshell and why Trinitarianism and most all other offshoots supposedly based on the scripture are such a mess. According to the scripture and the Testimony of Messiah there is only one true God but He is not the only god. That is why Trinitarianism tries to say that there are three persons but one God, and why Oneness and Modalists try to say that they three are all the same person wearing different "hats" at different times and manifestations. It is all bogus and proved false by the scripture in various places.

John 10:32-36 ASV
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),
36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Hebrews 1:7-9 ASV
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels winds, And his ministers a flame of fire:
8 but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

John 20:17 ASV
17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

John 17:1-3 ASV
1 These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the Son may glorify thee:
2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life.
3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

There is not just one god; but there is only one true God who is the Father. :thumb:

Amen, Christ is a form of God, a god. Not the most high.


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[keypurr]

Do note that various beliefs within Christendom or among followers of Jesus may differ in their interpretation of scripture, religious tradition or doctrinal concepts, particularly regarding 'Christology'.

Does Jesus NEED to be equal with 'God'? Is that necessary? According to whom?

'God' in reality is who and what 'God' IS...no matter what name or form you superimpose or label Him/Her/It with. - Absolute Reality IS what It IS, here, now and forever, timelessly and infinitely so. It doesn't need space, time, name or form to BE. 'God' from this view is pure Spirit, incorporeal, without space, time or dimensions, but his Presence pervades all, fills all, permeates all. This creative energy-light-consciousness fills the entirety of existence, for nothing can be with out IT.

Of course we are discussing theology here within a biblical context, so we use the nomenclature of the religious traditions associated with the Bible, using names and forms of 'God', and various doctrinal beliefs. But 'Real God' as absolute Reality, exists eternally, infinitely, omnipresently, as the Infinite One All-Supreme Being. There are aspects of Deity that are unknowable....and knowable....indefinite...and definite,...without form....and with form. God includes all, and transcends all....is all.



Keypurr has been sharing this view for years here,....and it has yet been shown what advantage or benefit that a traditional orthodox Trinitarian Christology....has over this view, except the claim that a Trinitarian view of God is 'orthodox' and his view is 'heterodoxical',...and do note,...this doesn't mean much except to those who define the terms and then deem which is correct or not. Its pretty much a dogmatic assumption qualified by a "because I say so", or..."church creed and tradition holds this as being true, so I believe it"...such is mere doctrinal opinion, personal belief or one's preferred Christological model. Any are free to believe or interpret the scriptures as they see fit, of course, hence the many different 'translations'.

Furthermore,...Jesus Christ is still all the scriptures say about him (and more depending on what other resources you reference on Jesus), no matter what Christology you hold to,...and reigns as the Messiah-Son of the Father-God (YHWH), being all the scriptures proclaim (and more),...so what is lost? in an Adoptionist view, even in an Arian view? They all belief God sent His Son, and that thru right knowledge, faith and reception of the Messiah-Son Jesus....eternal life, enlightenment, freedom, salvation, immortality is given,...the Son is the way, truth and life, the DOOR to God the Father,....Jesus is the LIGHT. This is all universally believed in one form or another. God is not diminished, for God is always God....his absolute unity, glory of Being, Supreme Identity, Indivisible Spirit....forever IS.

Aumen!

God is reigning with or without our permission, theological approval or Christological dissertations.....these things are fine, sure.....but the Father is seeking those who will worship him in spirit and in reality (in the depth of being). The Father-God scans the earth and his Spirit draws those true seekers into His holy Heart, whereby they SEE God (in spiritual seeing, as Spirit) and therefore worship the Father of spirits. Only One Deity BEING. One true and Universal Father-Mother God, the Fountain-source of all.

It ever holds,...that you may know this One God, and Jesus, the anointed whom He sent, who represents Him. - this is eternal life.

Why is it so hard for folks to discard tradition and see what the words say?


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[freelight]

Many sides or multiple perspectives........

Many sides or multiple perspectives........

Why is it so hard for folks to discard tradition and see what the words say?


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Personal preference and perogatives. There will be multiple views, perspectives, interpretations on any given subject. One must acknowledge this and accept other possible variations on a matter. This is fine,...its when one adamantly claims that their 'interpretation', 'belief' or 'conception' is somehow 'absolute' or the only 'orthodox' (correct/true) one, and then proclaim that as 'gospel-truth', so to speak. Now some subjects such as general theistic propositions about the nature 'God' or 'reality' have some universal fundamental agreements although some beg to differ even on those. Other matters are more or less open to multiple viewpoints, allowances for interpretive difference, and so on.

The concept of Anekantavada(many sidedness) within the Jainist tradition presents a good illustration in the story of the blind men and the elephant -

A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. In the case of the first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said "This being is like a drain pipe". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, "I perceive the shape of the elephant to be like a pillar". And in the case of the one who placed his hand upon its back said, "Indeed, this elephant is like a throne". Now, each of these presented a true aspect when he related what he had gained from experiencing the elephant. None of them had strayed from the true description of the elephant. Yet they fell short of fathoming the true appearance of the elephant.

In Christology, various aspects of 'Jesus Christ' are expounded or speculated upon, his 'humanity' and 'divinity', and that's what makes it so wonderful. Its already a 'compounded discourse'

I can entertain any number of possibilities and probabilities about the Messiah, since I'm an 'eclectic' and not limited to any one religious book or canon. I see the higher all-inclusive view as more comprehensive without falling into any dogmatic assumption or mental grid-lock. The Spirit is free

 

[keypurr]

Good post friend, I am also free of tradition so I have no problem with preconceived ideas held by church folks. I thank my Lord everyday for allowing me this freedom.

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[Bright Raven]

Amen, Christ is a form of God, a god. Not the most high.


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You are a polytheist.

 

[keypurr]

Truth really hurts you BR.

Jesus became the Christ of God when the logos went into him. The dove. Then Jesus went into the wilderness for forty days. He needed to adjust to the power he just received.

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[Bright Raven]

Truth really hurts you BR.

Jesus became the Christ of God when the logos went into him. The dove. Then Jesus went into the wilderness for forty days. He needed to adjust to the power he just received.

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My faith and belief is rock solid. Nothing you post can shake it. Now your's on the other hand is shaky as Jello.

 

[keypurr]

My faith and belief is rock solid. Nothing you post can shake it. Now your's on the other hand is shaky as Jello.

I understand your faith is in the church, but that that will not save you friend. I sleep very good at night. And I do not even care if I wake up. Are you ready for that time friend, if not, your in the wrong church.
Either way I think of you as a brother in Christ for your heart is with him who died for us.

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[Bright Raven]

I understand your faith is in the church, but that that will not save you friend. I sleep very good at night. And I do not even care if I wake up. Are you ready for that time friend, if not, your in the wrong church.
Either way I think of you as a brother in Christ for your heart is with him who died for us.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

Sorry friend, my faith is in Jesus Christ, his death burial and resurrection. How about you?

 

[daqq]

Sorry friend, my faith is in Jesus Christ, his death burial and resurrection. How about you?

Not true, that is only true of those who willingly and openly confess the full Testimony of Messiah: but you, (as well as the one who also just thanked your post), denied the Testimony of Messiah in favor of your creeds and privately held dogmas, and your own denial of the Testimony of Messiah is right here.

 

[Bright Raven]

Not true, that is only true of those who willingly and openly confess the full Testimony of Messiah: but you, (as well as the one who also just thanked your post), denied the Testimony of Messiah in favor of your creeds and privately held dogmas, and your own denial of the Testimony of Messiah is right here.

Please show me where I have denied Christ in favor of Creeds. Affirming the Trinity is not creedal. It is acknowledging the nature God and the Godhead.

 

[daqq]

What kind of dope have you been smoking? Please show me where I have denied Christ in favor of Creeds.

I am completely sober but you suddenly apparently do not know what a link is. :rotfl:

 

[keypurr]

You can not love Jesus or the Christ in him if you do not know and understand who he is.

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[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

What kind of dope have you been smoking? Please show me where I have denied Christ in favor of Creeds.

This is Daqq's favorite statement. He denies (1 Tim. 3:16), Atonement of Sin through Jesus (Gal. 3:13) so that Jesus is not recognized as our (Lk. 2:11 and Is. 43:3, 11)...

Then... He chimes in with the accusation that everyone else that doesn't deny Christ like he does is a "Christ Denier".

It's all so he can suggest that we utilize the Law of Moses for our salvation.

# Best idea ever! ... Nope :nono:

 

[keypurr]

Please show me where I have denied Christ in favor of Creeds. Affirming the Trinity is not creedal. It is acknowledging the nature God and the Godhead.

Jesus Christ does not mention a Trinity, nor do the Apostles. You serve another God BR and you do not realize it. Serve the God that Jesus does.

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[daqq]

Please show me where I have denied Christ in favor of Creeds. Affirming the Trinity is not creedal. It is acknowledging the nature God and the Godhead.

Originally Posted by Bright Raven

Originally Posted by daqq
Hi Bright Raven. Please confirm or deny the Testimony of Yeshua posted in the two opening posts of this thread. Here it is again condensed for your viewing pleasure. The clean pure systematic logic is plain for all to see. Do you affirm or deny this little mini-"creed" from the Gospel of John?

Again, the plain simple flow of systematic logic straight from the Testimony of Yeshua:

The words of Yeshua are Spirit:

John 6:62-63
62 What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending up to where he was before?
63 It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life.

The Father judges no one but has committed all judgment to the Son:

John 5:22
22. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

The man Yeshua does not testify of himself and therefore does not claim to be Elohim:

John 5:31
31 If I testify of myself, my testimony is not true.

The man Yeshua emphatically states that he himself judges no one:

John 8:15
15. You judge after the flesh: I judge no one.

There is only one who judges and he is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 8:50
50. And I seek not mine own glory: one there is, the Seeker and Judge. [Rev 2:23]

The Logos-Word is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but that the world might be delivered.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the LOGOS-WORD that I have spoken, THAT ONE shall judge him in the last day [Rev 19:11-16].

The Logos-Word which the man Yeshua speaks is not his own:

John 14:24
24. He that loves me not, keeps not my sayings: and the Logos-Word which you hear is not of me, but of the Father who sent me.

The Father judges no one, (John 5:22).
The man Yeshua judges no one, (John 8:15, John 12:47-48).
The Father has committed all judgment unto the Son, (John 5:22).
The man Yeshua does not testify concerning himself, (John 5:31).
The man Yeshua testifies concerning the Father and the Son.
The Son is therefore the only Judge.

The Father is not the Judge.
The man Yeshua is not the Judge.
The Logos-Word that Yeshua spoke is the Judge.
The man Yeshua therefore cannot be the Logos-Word.
The Logos-Word is the only begotten Elohim-Son of Elohim, (John 1:18).
The Testimony of Yeshua is never going to pass away, (Mt 24:35, Mk 13:31, Lk 21:33).
("The Logos-Word" Post#2)

I affirm the Trinity. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Bright Raven]

Jesus Christ does not mention a Trinity, nor do the Apostles. You serve another God BR and you do not realize it. Serve the God that Jesus does.

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Explain Matthew 28:19-20. It is a direct affirmation of the Trinity.

Matthew 28:19-20 King James Version (KJV)

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[Bright Raven]

Sorry Pal, the Trinity is a doctrine of Christianity. If you do not believe in the Trinity, you are not a Christian.