The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace

[godrulz]

Ephesians 3:1-7

Fully consistent with Acts 2 dispensationalism. Jew and Gentile were becoming one in Christ after "It is finished" (cross, resurrection, Pentecost, not Paul's conversion).

You will be hard pressed to find a commentator that comes to Mid-Acts conclusions from these Pauline verses about the Gospel.

While we are at it, just because Hebrews was written to Jewish believers relating to their background, does not mean it was a different gospel from books that related the Gospel in Gentile terms for those of Gentile background. The Old Covenant is the foundation for the New Covenant. The New Covenant relates to the Church, not circ. and uncirc. NT gospelS. The Old Covenant related to Israel. Petrine and Johannine theology are consistent with Pauline thought and all are based on the teachings of the Master.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Paul sates, very specifically, that we are no longer under the law. And that by the works of the law no flesh is justified.

I am not a Jew and was never under Moses -were you?
I never performed a work of the law according to Moses in my life and would have had no authority to do so if I had tried -did you?

I am an Adam person and I was under the law of sin and death.
I am no longer under the law of sin and death because the Redeemer is come who was promised in Genesis 3:15 to my father, Adam, which promise was to me, as his seed.

What?! Not one single person who professes to believe in MAD, that I have ever discussed this with, has ever said we should ignore the law and the prophets. The law points us to Christ.

Can you show how the Law points us to Christ? Where, When, How, and Why?
And I have never found a person in MAD doctrine yet, who has a clue to the Living Oracles as the ABC’s of the One Faith. They avoid the Oracles' teachings -as the plague- for the Living Oracles completely defy MAD doctrine in total.

You are an idiot. You don't have the first clue what MAD is, or what Paul preached.

You have demonstrated nothing but your own ignorance. For everything you say MAD is, it is not. And everything you say the Paul of scripture is, MAD teaches. With the few exceptions of the things you say Paul taught, which he did not.

Paul, of Scripture, says Jesus is the Mercy Seat, whom God set forth -openly displayed as a dead body lying in state, as our Mercy Seat.
Paul says Jesus is our Passover. -The Passover for the whole world!

Paul says no born again Believer who is called circumcised is to become uncircumcised and no uncircumcised person who is born again is to be circumcised.

Paul circumcised Timothy, who is a Believer and only a half Jew, to prove he did not depart from Moses -and called Timothy his own son in the faith.

Timothy, Paul’s circumcised “own son in the faith” penned the book of Hebrews -and possibly penned that book for Paul.

Paul says he is a man, and a Jew, and he repented and is water baptized. Paul spoke in tongues, Paul says "do not forbid to speak in tongues", MAD doctrine forbids speaking in tongues.
And MAD doctrine teaches to disobey the LORD Jesus Christ's command to repent and be water baptized in His name -authority, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Mad denies the doctrine of the three Persons of the Trinity in the Work of Salvation for every Believer, in denying the Three Persons' separate work in every Believers' adoption;

# 2 Person gives the Spirit of Regeneration,
# 3 Person gives the Spirit of Power, and the gifts of power.
# 1 Person gives the Spirit of Glory only to the Beloved Son, who shares His glory with His adopted sons of the second humankind race.


So there is the Person of the Holy Spirit of Regeneration
There is the person of the Holy spirit of Power
and there is the Person of the Holy Spirit of Glory.
One God; Three Persons, and MAD has not recognized the Three in Personal Salvation because they deny Paul's teachings and twist what he does say in other places to fit the MAD box.

The Son regenerates by His Living Spirit, the Holy Spirit endues the adopted sons with the power of sons of God, and the Son who received the Glory of the Father without measure on Pentecost sends a portion of that glory of the Father which He has as earth's Everlasting Firstborn, to every Regenerated Believer -since Pentecost.

Paul of Scripture says 'covet to prophesy', MAD doctrine says the Holy Spirit does not give the gifts delineated by Paul, today; tongues, miracles, prophecy [not as of new doctrine, but of things near and far] word of wisdom, word of knowledge, gifts of miracles, and gifts of healings.


Paul of Scripture is a Tongues praying/ tongues singing Pentecostal Jew who keeps Moses, who is water baptized and who circumcises uncircumcised half Jews.
Paul of Scripture took vows, according to Moses, and kept them, performing the sacrifices for them -after He was born again in Spirit.

MAD doctrine paul is not the Paul of the Word of God.

 

[patman]

No, Enoch was not written after Isaiah, and Jesus quoted Enoch directly many times, in specific things which are written no place else but Enoch.-So did Paul quote Enoch for many of the things he wrote, they were not unique to Paul, but to Enoch, and scribes brought the prophets' writings 'out' to give the sense of them, and Paul was a scribe, not a prophet as Enoch was.

thelaqachisnext,

Just because a person in the Bible quotes a work does not mean that work is scripture too. Example, Paul preached about the "Unknown God" taken from Greek mythology.

Additionally, these examples were a bit of a stretch. AND I know there is a translation gap, but even still, I am not compelled to think Jesus quoted Enoch at all, little less to affirm the truthfulness of that book.

The books of Enoch indeed could have ripped off real scripture when it quotes an OT passage. It really IS possible. Your faith and desire to build your own Bible so you can disprove every other theology makes you unreasonable.

 

[Lighthouse]

Fully consistent with Acts 2 dispensationalism. Jew and Gentile were becoming one in Christ after "It is finished" (cross, resurrection, Pentecost, not Paul's conversion).

:blabla:

You will be hard pressed to find a commentator that comes to Mid-Acts conclusions from these Pauline verses about the Gospel.

Bob Hill, Bob Enyart, Les Feldick, C.R. Stam...

While we are at it, just because Hebrews was written to Jewish believers relating to their background, does not mean it was a different gospel from books that related the Gospel in Gentile terms for those of Gentile background. The Old Covenant is the foundation for the New Covenant. The New Covenant relates to the Church, not circ. and uncirc. NT gospelS. The Old Covenant related to Israel. Petrine and Johannine theology are consistent with Pauline thought and all are based on the teachings of the Master.

:blabla:

I think I'm done listening to you, for a while.

 

[Lighthouse]

I am not a Jew and was never under Moses -were you?

No. Why?

I never performed a work of the law according to Moses in my life and would have had no authority to do so if I had tried -did you?

No. Why?

I am an Adam person and I was under the law of sin and death.
I am no longer under the law of sin and death because the Redeemer is come who was promised in Genesis 3:15 to my father, Adam, which promise was to me, as his seed.

Yeah. And?

Can you show how the Law points us to Christ? Where, When, How, and Why?

Galatians 3:19-24

And I have never found a person in MAD doctrine yet, who has a clue to the Living Oracles as the ABC’s of the One Faith. They avoid the Oracles' teachings -as the plague- for the Living Oracles completely defy MAD doctrine in total.[/quote]
Living Oracles? Who are they?

Paul, of Scripture, says Jesus is the Mercy Seat, whom God set forth -openly displayed as a dead body lying in state, as our Mercy Seat.
Paul says Jesus is our Passover. -The Passover for the whole world!

And?

Paul says no born again Believer who is called circumcised is to become uncircumcised and no uncircumcised person who is born again is to be circumcised.

And?

Paul circumcised Timothy, who is a Believer and only a half Jew, to prove he did not depart from Moses -and called Timothy his own son in the faith.

So an uncircumcised person became circumcised.:think:

Timothy, Paul’s circumcised “own son in the faith” penned the book of Hebrews -and possibly penned that book for Paul.

What proof do you have of this?

Paul says he is a man, and a Jew, and he repented and is water baptized. Paul spoke in tongues, Paul says "do not forbid to speak in tongues", MAD doctrine forbids speaking in tongues.

MAD doesn't forbid speaking in tongues. I have never once heard an MAD teacher forbid speaking in tongues. I have heard Acts 2 teachers say that you aren't saved if you don't, though.

And MAD doctrine teaches to disobey the LORD Jesus Christ's command to repent and be water baptized in His name -authority, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

It teaches that you should repent. But it does teach that baptism has passed away for salvation. But baptism didn't always exist for salvation, either. So why is it so hard to understand that God could do away with it, because those it was for were rejecting Christ anyway? However, it does not teach anyone that they should not be water baptized.

Mad denies the doctrine of the three Persons of the Trinity in the Work of Salvation for every Believer, in denying the Three Persons' separate work in every Believers' adoption;

What?! Where do you get that ridiculous idea?

[# 2 Person gives the Spirit of Regeneration,
# 3 Person gives the Spirit of Power, and the gifts of power.
# 1 Person gives the Spirit of Glory only to the Beloved Son, who shares His glory with His adopted sons of the second humankind race.

What are you talking about?

So there is the Person of the Holy Spirit of Regeneration
There is the person of the Holy spirit of Power
and there is the Person of the Holy Spirit of Glory.
One God; Three Persons, and MAD has not recognized the Three in Personal Salvation because they deny Paul's teachings and twist what he does say in other places to fit the MAD box.

You are quite ignorant. I have never met one single MAD believer who denies the Trinity, or their work in salvation.

The Son regenerates by His Living Spirit, the Holy Spirit endues the adopted sons with the power of sons of God, and the Son who received the Glory of the Father without measure on Pentecost sends a portion of that glory of the Father which He has as earth's Everlasting Firstborn, to every Regenerated Believer -since Pentecost.

Paul of Scripture says 'covet to prophesy', MAD doctrine says the Holy Spirit does not give the gifts delineated by Paul, today; tongues, miracles, prophecy [not as of new doctrine, but of things near and far] word of wisdom, word of knowledge, gifts of miracles, and gifts of healings.

You do realize that Paul listed the gifts again, later, without those gifts you listed, don't you?

Paul of Scripture is a Tongues praying/ tongues singing Pentecostal Jew who keeps Moses, who is water baptized and who circumcises uncircumcised half Jews.
Paul of Scripture took vows, according to Moses, and kept them, performing the sacrifices for them -after He was born again in Spirit.

Tongues singing?

Sacrafices? Christ was the final sacrafice.

MAD doctrine paul is not the Paul of the Word of God.

Whatever, loud-mouth.

 

[godrulz]

:blabla:


Bob Hill, Bob Enyart, Les Feldick, C.R. Stam...


:blabla:

I think I'm done listening to you, for a while.

I respect Hill and Enyart. Feldick and Stam may be prominent in your circles, but they are not credible, conservative exegetes on the level of F.F. Bruce, etc. This would be like me quoting my famous Pentecostal scholars as leading authorities on evangelical doctrine.

There are a variety of fringe views that have strong proponents that most people have never heard of and have been challenged by more credible scholars.

H.A. Ironside, for example, is a respected scholar who wrote critiques against Bullingerism/ultradispensationalism, the roots of your fringe view.

A theology built around radio preacher Bob George is another example of an appeal to someone promoting unique views, but this does not mean that most credible scholars would not and could not refute many of his points.

The handful of people you may appeal to were not persuasive in academic circles because their views do not stand up to scrutiny.

Enyart is not a theologian. He is a pastor and radio personality. He does not claim to be a master of biblical languages. He has strong views, but that does not mean they are right or would stand up to scrutiny. This does not mean all of his views are correct, nor does it mean all published scholars are either.

This would be similar to me claiming that Charles Finney, whom I like, is pivotal for understanding biblical truth on every verse he talks about.

We must learn to think critically. Some of the footnotes in The Plot, for example, rely on NKJV and do not stand up to Greek scrutiny or a sound contextual study. They are proof texts to support a preconceived idea.

Pastor Hill has studied Greek. I am surprised at his conclusions about Mid-Acts. The recent comments on Timothy and Paul being the 'first' of sinners shows me that he can make mistakes like the rest of us. Paul is the chief or worst of sinners in his mind. This is a perfectly legit. translation of the Greek word that has a semantic range or bundle of possible meanings. To say that Paul was the first sinner chronologically in a new dispensation is sheer eisegesis and contrary to the context, common sense, and most likely use of the word. It supports a preconceived idea, but would be rejected by most commentators as bizarre. It is a rookie mistake like JWs make when they say 'firstborn' means first created instead of preeminent (Col. 1) or 'beginning' (Rev. 3) means Christ is creature instead of ruler, the better understanding of the word in context.

You do not have to listen to me, but others may want to pause and consider alternate understandings in order to make an informed decision.

 

[godrulz]

You do realize that Paul listed the gifts again, later, without those gifts you listed, don't you?


Whatever, loud-mouth.

These lists were selective and with different emphasis. This is a feeble argument. Just because the Son and Holy Spirit are not mentioned in later verses does not mean the Trinity is no longer true. We must look at all verses to formulate an understanding. Another list might not list love as a character trait when it was in an earlier list. Does that mean love is no longer valid? If a verse mentions the gift of pastor or teacher only, does that negate a verse that might talk about evangelists? Lists are not exhaustive, but selective. A gift of giving is in one list. Does that mean it is not a legit. gift because it is not mentioned in other lists?

 

[thelaqachisnext]

No. Why?

[/color][/color]
No. Why?
Yeah. And?

Who are they?
And?
And?
So an uncircumcised person became circumcised.:think:
What proof do you have of this?
MAD doesn't forbid speaking in tongues. I have never once heard an MAD teacher forbid speaking in tongues. I have heard Acts 2 teachers say that you aren't saved if you don't, though.
It teaches that you should repent. But it does teach that baptism has passed away for salvation. But baptism didn't always exist for salvation, either. So why is it so hard to understand that God could do away with it, because those it was for were rejecting Christ anyway? However, it does not teach anyone that they should not be water baptized.
What?! Where do you get that ridiculous idea?
What are you talking about?
You are quite ignorant. I have never met one single MAD believer who denies the Trinity, or their work in salvation.
You do realize that Paul listed the gifts again, later, without those gifts you listed, don't you?
Tongues singing?
Sacrafices? Christ was the final sacrafice.
Whatever, loud-mouth.

[You who claim to be "grace" believers are all so 'gracious' [not!] with your own mouths, here, calling people "raca" [idiots] and such lovely things as "loud mouth", 'liars' -and so on and so forth.]
~~~~~

MAD denies the work of the Trinity in Salvation by claiming that the "one LORD One Faith, one baptism [of which Paul spoke of in one place] excludes the work of the Son, Father, and Holy Spirit in their three Holy Spirit "baptisms"; Regeneration; Glory; and enduement with Power from on high; and the Glory is only given in a measure to those who are regenerated in the Son's Living Spirit -for He sends a share of the inheritance to His sons, adopted into His "One" Living Spirit, which is a downpayment of the glory to come; and the power is only given to the sons by adoption to act in the name of the Beloved Son of God on His behalf, while walking through this life being witnesses to Him. -but unright division is common to MAD doctrine like that, for they do not compare Scripture with Scripture to get the sense of meaning.

One believes, one confesses, one is joined to the Spirit of the New Man by the Spirit of adoption; and one obeys Him and is water baptized. "One baptism" is water, only, which you must submit to in Jesus' Name, or else you are in rebellion to His commands, not doing the things He says, and by what right then, can you to call Him "LORD and MASTER", He says, if you do not do the things He says?.

MAD dismisses the New Birth as the Regeneration of Spirit into the One New Man's Living Spirit, and the downpayment of the glory of the Father to come, and the enduement with Power from on high, in their doctrine of the "one baptism, which 'one baptism' of Paul's particular passage is water baptism, and is the sign of a born again Believer, who lives long enough after salvation into the Name of Jesus to obey His will; and is a sign in and to the 'dead flesh' we wear, called Adam, of our faith in the resurrection in the newness of Life, immortal as Jesus Christ is; and is a sign as circumcision is the sign in the flesh of a Jewish male of all Adam seed being cut off in the 8th day of creation.

To reply to your post, I had to write a longer one, which is for the benefit of those who may be tempted to be seduced by MAD dcotrine; as you declare you do not read my posts, perhaps others can see biblical contradiction to the doctrines espoused in MAD and go search these things for themselves in Scripture.

First; you gave a Scripture that does not apply to me; I was never under the Law, so the Scripture that “ye are no longer under the Law” is not about Moses and me, so I asked if it applied to you, as MAD does make much of ‘rightly dividing‘ and not taking to themselves things said to others which do not apply to them [so they say, but nothing Paul wrote was written to any of you today, as his letters were specifically directed to named recipients. of whom you are not any, of you, of].

If you had learned the ABC’s of the Oracles you would know that Christ’s sacrifice was the “Acceptable Year of the LORD” which ended the Yearly Atonement offering made as a dress rehearsal by the High Priest, serving in the office of Christ, which was for all in Adam -offered on behalf of the Jews first, and also to the Gentiles.
If you had learned the Living Oracles' lessons you would have known that only on the basis of the Yearly Atonement was anything any person in Israel offered before YHWH through the rest of the year according to Moses, accepted -by faith- because of the Yearly “rollover” dress rehearsal of the Final one to come.

Paul circumcised Timothy, a Believing Half Jew, to prove he had not departed from Moses. -And Timothy penned Hebrews, possibly for Paul, for Timothy and Paul were in prison together.

1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, [my] own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hbr 13:23 Know ye that [our] brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.
Hbr 13:25 Grace [be] with you all. Amen. [[[Written to the Hebrews from Italy, by Timothy.]]]

Then they go ministering together;

Act 16:1¶Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father [was] a Greek:
Which was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
Act 16:3Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
Act 16:4And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
Act 16:5And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily

.

Then Lydia heard Paul attended to the things he said and was water baptized -just like Paul!

Act 16:14And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought [us], saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us.

Then the Jailor believed on the LORD and was water baptized -just like Paul after Paul spoke the Word of the LORD to him and his house [repent and be water baptized];

Act 16:30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Then in Corinth Paul preached and the ruler of the Synagogue was saved and Paul baptized him in water -just like Paul was water baptized- and many others of the Corinthians believed and were water baptized -but Paul said he didn’t do the actual dunking of them all, when writing them later, so those with Paul did the water baptizing;

Act 18:8And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Act 18:11And he continued [there] a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Then Paul took a Nazarite vow and left to keep a Jewish feast, according to Moses, which Paul never departed from, as a circumcised Jew; and he stopped in Ephesus.

Act 18:18¶And Paul [after this] tarried [there] yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn [his] head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.
Act 18:19And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.
When they desired [him] to tarry longer time with them, he consented not;
Act 18:21But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

going back through Ephesus, Paul finds some Believers who had not received the Holy Ghost -third Person- and he questions what water baptism they were water baptized ‘unto’ -in what name? Paul knows those baptized in water hear of the Holy Ghost, as the Third Person of the One YHWH; so Paul baptizes about twelve men in water, and then prays for them to receive the Spirit of enduement with Power -third Person in YHWH.

When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 19:6And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7And all the men were about twelve.

Later, after a third trip, Paul hurries on by Ephesus to be in Jerusalem to keep Pentecost; according to Moses which Paul never departed from all his life;

Act 20:16For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

He sends to Ephesus for the elders to come to him and gives them his parting words;
[which shows Paul was in the Way of Faith once delivered to the Saints until the end, and never departed to another secret gnostic unknown, MAD doctrine thing].

Act 20:17¶And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

In the parting sermon Paul never once repented for water baptizing the first men of Ephesus, and declared he had declared to them the whole council of God -which included water baptism.

then, at Jerusalem, Paul proves he has not departed from Moses, and performs his vow and offers the sacrifices according to Moses.

Act 21:17And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.
Act 21:18And the [day] following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
Act 21:19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
Act 21:20And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Act 21:21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.
Act 21:22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
ct 21:23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

Act 21:24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Act 21:25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Act 21:26¶Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them

then Paul again tells that He saw the LORD -had the Revelation of Him- but that the disciples gave him his instructions for the life of service to the LORD he was to live, in Damascus: all things Paul was to do were told him in Damascus by the Disciples there! Only the Revelation of the LORD was given to Him by the LORD Himself.

Act 22:10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt [there],

Act 22:13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

Act 22:14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Act 22:15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

MAD doctrine indeed forbids speaking in tongues, calling it of the devil -Bob Hill forbids speaking in tongues and has converts to MAD recant tongues before others, as he said on a thread I read once on this board.

Paul never recanted Tongues! and he sang in tongues and prayed in tongues; Paul gives instructions to the Church on tongues and ends with the command to not forbid to speak in tongues.
Paul says he prays in tongues and sings in tongues -privately, and is edified in his spirit by doing so.

1Cr 14:1¶Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Cr 14:2For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Cr 14:3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Cr 14:4He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1Cr 14:5I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1Cr 14:14For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Cr 14:15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Cr 14:18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Cr 14:37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Cr 14:39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Cr 14:40Let all things be done decently and in order.

 

[Bob Hill]

The Holy Spirit does the baptism of believers into the Body of Christ in this Dispensation of Grace.

1 Cor 12:12,13 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body - whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free - and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

In Christ my Saviour,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

This is not true. I have never done anything like this!!!!!

MAD doctrine indeed forbids speaking in tongues, calling it of the devil -Bob Hill forbids speaking in tongues and has converts to MAD recant tongues before others, as he said on a thread I read once on this board.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

I do not believe tongues are still active in the Body of Christ today, but they certainly were in the beginning of Paul's ministry, but I would never condemn someone who spoke in tongues. I certainly try to show them what the Bible says about tongues for today, but I would only do this if they wanted to talk about it. We shouldn't be arrogant in our relationship with others.

Bob Hill

 

[jeremysdemo]

You who claim to be "grace" believers are all so 'gracious' [not!] with your own mouths, here, calling people "raca" [idiots] and such lovely things as "loud mouth", 'liars' -and so on and so forth.
~~~~~

Paul circumcised Timothy, a Believing Half Jew, to prove he had not departed from Moses. -And Timothy penned Hebrews, possibly for Paul, for Timothy and Paul were in prison together.

I would be interested in reading the data that led to this conclusion.
Hebrews is unlike any of the text attributed to Paul, both in style of Greek and the percentage of use of personal pronouns that is a trademark of Pauline literature.
A few academics (supported by linguistic professionals in their fields) postulate that Apollos was the author of Hebrews.
In light of all the data presented by such analysis' I tend to agree with the assessments made, that's why I ask for the sources so that I may weigh them in as well.

then Paul again tells that He saw the LORD -had the Revelation of Him- but that the disciples gave him his instructions for the life of service to the LORD he was to live, in Damascus: all things Paul was to do were told him in Damascus by the Disciples there! Only the Revelation of the LORD was given to Him by the LORD Himself.

The passage you present does not support the claim that Paul received instructions by the Apostles of Jesus Christ.(the living rabbi)
By what information I can find he only spent a two week period with them.
He speaks of talking to Peter, and seeing James.

Paul never recanted Tongues! and he sang in tongues and prayed in tongues; Paul gives instructions to the Church on tongues and ends with the command to not forbid to speak in tongues.
Paul says he prays in tongues and sings in tongues -privately, and is edified in his spirit by doing so.

Although I agree Paul never recants tongues I can find no account by any of the 12 Apostles, or anyone else for that matter other than himself that he indeed spoke in them.
But that could be said of any of his claims, like apostleship for instance, Luke withstanding.

keep shinin'

jerm

 

[Bob Hill]

1 Cor 13:8-10 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Bob Hill

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1 Cor 13:8-10 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Bob Hill

Right on,Bob!

The gift of "tongues" is an example of "sign gifts" that are no longer for today.The "unknown tongues" were actual languages.Therefore,Paul told those in the early church that "let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret"(1Cor.14:14).In Pentecostal churches today the so-called "tongues" are not actual languages,but instead more closely resemble the "the wizards that chirp and that mutter" (Isaiah 8:19, RV).

This "muttering" is not of God,and that is why believers are given warnings about "spirits" that are not of God: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that,in the latter times,some shall depart from the faith,giving heed to seducing spirits…" (1Tim.4:1).

The days of the "rushing mighty wind" and "tongues of fire" (Acts2:2,3) are past.Today the Christian endures "as seeing Him Who is invisible" (Heb.11:27),as witnessed by the words of the Lord and Savior:

"Thomas,because thou hast seen Me,thou hast believed.Blessed are they who have not seen,and yet who have believed" (Jn.20:29).

"For we walk by faith,not by sight" (2Cor.5:7).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[jeremysdemo]

1 Cor 13:8-10 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Bob Hill

The only reason prophecies would fail is because they are from false prophets.
The only reason tongues would cease is because there is no Spirit in the people.
As far as knowledge vanishing away haven't seen that happen yet either... all the knowledge is still there however people willingness to seek it out on their own has greatly decreased.

I know plenty of people who speak in tongues, so just because you people don't doesn't mean it isn't supposed to be happening, only that it doesn't happen for you.(and there are good reasons for that which I won't get into)
I have recorded some of these words and went to a few rabbi's with them.
They are in an Ancient Hebrew dialect that the people who spoke them had know knowledge of, neither is it likely they could have since it is so hard to find.
Some of the words were revealed by the Spirit as they were spoken by another as to what they meant.
When I took the recording to one of the rabbi's he concurred (without knowledge of it) that to the best of his knowledge what these words meant by their closest known Hebrew counterparts, the two were almost identical in meaning. (although not word for word)

keep shinin'

jerm

 

[godrulz]

The Holy Spirit does the baptism of believers into the Body of Christ in this Dispensation of Grace.

1 Cor 12:12,13 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body - whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free - and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

In Christ my Saviour,
Bob Hill

Most evangelicals agree with this truth, yet most also affirm believer's baptism, without contradiction.

 

[godrulz]

I do not believe tongues are still active in the Body of Christ today, but they certainly were in the beginning of Paul's ministry, but I would never condemn someone who spoke in tongues. I certainly try to show them what the Bible says about tongues for today, but I would only do this if they wanted to talk about it. We shouldn't be arrogant in our relationship with others.

Bob Hill

If tongues are not from God today, then you should take a stronger stand against them. If they are demonic or made up by sincere believers, you have a responsibility to expose their deception. If you think they are legit. for some, then you need to change your theology.

 

[godrulz]

1 Cor 13:8-10 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Bob Hill

The second coming of Christ, not the closing of the canon, is in view for the timing of tongues ceasing. The context is the use and misuse of spiritual gifts, not their supposed cessation.

 

[godrulz]

Right on,Bob!

The gift of "tongues" is an example of "sign gifts" that are no longer for today.The "unknown tongues" were actual languages.Therefore,Paul told those in the early church that "let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret"(1Cor.14:14).In Pentecostal churches today the so-called "tongues" are not actual languages,but instead more closely resemble the "the wizards that chirp and that mutter" (Isaiah 8:19, RV).

This "muttering" is not of God,and that is why believers are given warnings about "spirits" that are not of God: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that,in the latter times,some shall depart from the faith,giving heed to seducing spirits…" (1Tim.4:1).

The days of the "rushing mighty wind" and "tongues of fire" (Acts2:2,3) are past.Today the Christian endures "as seeing Him Who is invisible" (Heb.11:27),as witnessed by the words of the Lord and Savior:

"Thomas,because thou hast seen Me,thou hast believed.Blessed are they who have not seen,and yet who have believed" (Jn.20:29).

"For we walk by faith,not by sight" (2Cor.5:7).

In His grace,--Jerry

UR

 

[thelaqachisnext]

This is not true. I have never done anything like this!!!!!


Bob Hill

I am sorry if I got the wrong person.
I thought it was you who said you had folks come in front of a -class?- you were teaching and recant tongues, confessing they were not from the Holy Spirit.
Then when I pursued that conversation, the person on the other end became silent.
I will go see if I can find that conversation and I am sorry I thought it was you.