The Wages of Sin is DEATH

meshak

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Sonnet,

Jesus sums up His commands in two, love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

This seems simple but it is hard to follow because Jesus tells us all kind of stuff that most of us don't like.

That's why there are so many strange teachings spread.

Jesus says "if you are not willing to give up everything you have, you cannot be My disciple". Do you know that?

Are you willing to change your life style and mentality to Jesus' ways?

If you are not, you will be just working against Jesus and claiming to be a Christian and saved.

Jesus does not endorse lip-serving Christians.
 

meshak

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Why do you think I am following 'men'?

(I'm a guy).

Sorry, your writing style seemed like a female.

You see, this kind of question shows your pretentiousness.

You were just talking about Calvinist followers.

You seem to want to learn from others instead of from Jesus.

Jesus' teachings are not complicated that you need to rely on others to learn about Him and about His teachings.
 

meshak

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Strange behaviour? Dishonest? Really?

I have read those books and continue to do so.

then why are you asking questions about Christianity?

You don't get the idea that Jesus is perfect Teacher.

If you are sincerely seeking to be a true Christian, you will be reading His word and understand what Christianity is all about.

It seems you are just troll pretending to be trying to learn about Christianity.
 

meshak

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Ok,

I just checked your profile.

It says "other".

I apologize.

I assumed you are claiming to be a Christian.

I think you need to make that clear when you post in this kind of thread to avoid confusion.

I am sure many of the posters who respond to your assumed you are claiming a Christian.
 

ebenz47037

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Knock it off, meshak. Sometimes, people need a little help to understand everything about coming to the faith. I know that I needed help when I first started to believe.

then why are you asking questions about Christianity?

You don't get the idea that Jesus is perfect Teacher.

If you are sincerely seeking to be a true Christian, you will be reading His word and understand what Christianity is all about.

It seems you are just troll pretending to be trying to learn about Christianity.
 
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meshak

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Knock it off, meshak. Sometimes, people need a little help to understand everything about coming to the faith. I know that I needed help when I first started to believe.

You needed to read Jesus' word instead of asking questions to other believers.

Your pastors should tell their members to tell them that instead of teaching them their own doctrines.

When I was a new, I asked questions to others and got me even more confused.

I started to learn when I started to read Jesus' word.

Asking question to get quick answers from other believers is the biggest mistake.
 

ebenz47037

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The funny thing is that I got answers to my questions that helped me to come to Christ. Over the years, my faith has grown stronger and I try to help others come to faith in Christ because people helped me so long ago. I thank God daily that He put people in my life to help me understand that He loved me when I felt unloveable.
You needed to read Jesus' word instead of asking questions to other believers.

Your pastors should tell their members to tell them that instead of teaching them their own doctrines.

When I was a new, I asked questions to others and got me even more confused.

I started to learn when I started to read Jesus' word.

Asking question to get quick answers from other believers is the biggest mistake.
 

meshak

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The funny thing is that I got answers to my questions that helped me to come to Christ. Over the years, my faith has grown stronger and I try to help others come to faith in Christ because people helped me so long ago. I thank God daily that He put people in my life to help me understand that He loved me when I felt unloveable.

We are not in the same path, friend.

You seem to cherish majority approved and popular teachings. I cherish what Jesus teaches.

Jesus teaching are so powerful. You don't need another men to teach you. Jesus gives all kinds of encouragement we need.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

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Hence 'original sin' means something quite different from whatever I have struggled to understand by that term....

Yes. Augustine was only partially correct in his formulation and presentation. But he was troubled by overwhelming sexual lust as a young man, and a Manichaean Gnostic for about a decade before his authentic conversion to Christianity. But his biggest failing was his Latinate foundation, without being a true Philologist and Theologian based on Greek language understanding. (Other theologians throughout history have noted the same of him, even while respecting his strengths and other contributions to the Faith.)

Original Sin is grossly misunderstood in general, and even moreso by modern English speakers. There was no "pre-sin sin" to apply to a single act; and Adam was not deceived and in the transgression as attributed to Eve. This is a lengthy teaching topic that is tied to Ponerology (Evil-ology) and Hamartiology (Sin-ology), etc.

This is why word meanings are so vital in translation from Greek to English. And it most often requires a phrase, sentence, paragraph, or page of English for many single words. A word-for-word exchange as translation is necessary for brevity of any resulting English version; but that just exacerbates the problems of inequitable language structures between Greek and English (with Latin in between) if readers aren't aware of such things.

The seeming complexity of singular/plural and articular/anarthrous Greek nouns is foreign to English speakers. But it isn't easily recognizable because the whole process involves reconciling something structurally and functionally missing and present in Greek with something structurally and functionally present and missing in English that are opposites in both regards.

Hamartia is an archer's term, hence the oft-repeated "missing the mark" common definition. But that "missing the mark" is almost universally perceived by English speakers as a verb, emphasizing "missing". But it is THE missing share or part as a void when articular, referring to the condition or inner state of being of mankind. This condition is present whether an archer ever picks up a bow or a quiver with arrows, and whether he ever nocks an arrow or draws back the bowstring or aims or shoots. It is the archer's condition as an inability to ever aim for and hit the target, even if he never gets up from his seat to move.

The anarthrous singular and plural refer to any and all particular inner qualities or characteristics as functional activity. All archers have different specific equipment, even if they're similar. This relates to every particular inner disposition of the heart and mind of man that is as infinitely variable as every person themselves in their thought-life. All singular hamartia is inward, with the plural articular ultimately culminating outward when there is a verb.

Hamartia, the noun, whether in singular/plural or artricular/anarthrous form, is NEVER referring to the doing and done of sinning (verb) and sins (hamartema) as resulting acts (also a noun or nouns). Hamartia is the concupiscence of the heart as inward character, as a disposition toward any particular potentiality for action. And it is both sub-cognitive and cognitive, unintentional and willful.

So it refers to the broadest scope of inner corruption of man's heart and mind without God's righteousness as the standard. Sin is self-righteousness, and it can be the "height" of a pristine Judeo-Christian morality and ethicity in one's life; or it can be the "depth" of depravity in what will manifest as murdering, raping, stealing, lying, etc. All action is the verb, but the verb is acting out the condition. And the "height" of sin is one's self-righteous disposition of the heart as character.

Hamartiology, as I hope you are seeing in a fresh light, is a hugely misunderstood area of theology. All the "archers" are running around shooting at targets, presuming they've hit them (even if they're not bullseyes). But their condition is as an archer who cannot ever hit ANY target, because the target is God's standard for inward character as outward conduct. So even if there is a convincing outward emulation of many behaviors, the source is one's own inner condition in attempting to duplicate God's standard rather than confess and agree with God that one can never have or be or do God's inward and outward standard in one's own condition and by one's own strength or ability as self-effort or accomplishment, etc.

This is kinda important to understand at a very deep and personal level for all aspects of the Christain walk, beginning with belief and repentance (which are also both nouns and verbs, the former being in the same forms as sin as a noun).

This is an epidemic of ignorance and dysfunction in the modern Church-at-large.
 
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Sonnet

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Original Sin is grossly misunderstood in general, and even more so by modern English speakers. There was no "pre-sin sin" to apply to an single act; and Adam was not deceived and in the transgression as attributed to Eve. This is a lengthy teaching topic that is tied to Ponerology and Hamartiology, etc.

Thanks. Still reading through.

"pre-sin sin"?
Always been confused by 1 Tim 2:14 - is this what you are referring to?
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

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How would you define the gospel? 1 Corinthians 15:3b-5 is Paul's definition, but some deny that Paul ever preached 'Christ died for our sins' to unbelievers.

All variants of modern understanding and declaration are misrepresentations based on false understandings of sin as articular/anarthrous singular/plural nouns in the text.

In 2Corinthians 5:21, Jesus was made (poieo) sin (singular anarthrous). This means He was caused to bear every qualitative characteristic and functional activity OF the sin condition of all mankind for all ages of humanity. This does not equate to dying for all sins (plural articular) or forgiveness of sin (singular articular), all as nouns.

Calvinists and Arminians are arguing over physical crumbs rather than metaphysical truth. Monergism and Synergism must be understood in the appropriate sense of "holding hands" between God's timelessness and created time for humanity in the cosmos.

It's not exactly a false dichotomy, but it's divisive and misunderstood by most claiming to be on either "side". There is no third option, but the reconcilation of both extremes is crucial.

Without synergism, man is rendered as something less than a worthwhile creation.

But Synergism is only relative to time-bound creation. Monergism is relative to the timeless and uncreated God. There is no sequentiality or linearity or duration or elapsation for God in any sense of time. Monergism and Synergism are integrated in a way that few can ever comprehend or express.

Man cannot initiate or effect his own salvation in any manner. God does not predestine some to reward and some to punishment. Whosover will, may come; but only the elect. It's NOT a paradox, but men have attempted to make it a paradox to resolve it from either the aspect of creation or the perspective of God as Creator.

It all has to do with understanding Greek noun forms instead of presuming according to the default of English noun forms. All verbs are the "doing" of nouns. All adjectives modify the nouns. All adverbs modify the verbs that the nouns are doing. All pronouns are related to the nouns. Grammar is about nouns, and English can't effectively represent Greek noun forms to English first-language thinkers and speakers.

Yes, Jesus became the singular anarthrous sin of all mankind. Every qualitative characteristic and dysfunctional activity of the inward heart and mind that could or did ever manifest outwardly in conduct as acting and action. But that is only the anarthrous of the articular, which is the condition itself (not just its various and near-infinite qualities, etc.

It's not the simple silliness of English human deductive reasoning based on differing noun forms that few are aware of.

And this relates to the compatibilism issue - which we have touched on before. God's sovereignty and man's responsibility must be balanced else polemic follows. Maybe part of the problem lies in the acronym TULIP which nowhere mentions that Calvinists, whilst affirming that God is sovereign, believe that men remain responsible. It's in the Canons of Dordt of course - from which the five points where formulated.

This can all be reconciled; but it obviously takes more than a handful of forum posts to do so, since it hasn't been done in the last half millennia. The answer is that it is not an either-or dichotomy. One must approach it from several other areas of theology to see the aspects of both Monergism and Synergism.

One has to have at least a 51% edge if expressed in a quantitative manner. But what if it's exclusively a qualitative (anarthrous) consideration? English speakers have no grid whatsoever for qualitative distinctions. English has indefinite article nouns attempting to replace and translate anarthrous Greek nouns. Almost impossible to grasp for Englishizers, which comprise almost the entirety of modern western Believers (and with other modern language structures having the same or similar issues in modernity).
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

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Thankfully the world has guys like you to stress over "conditions" of archers.

Thankfully. Otherwise "the world" would be left with arrogant and ignorant proponents of English fallacies that are sin as doctrine.

Much of your doctrine is sin, and you mock and scoff when anyone dares correct it. You presume what I say is arrogance when it's faith. You presume my approach is puffed up gnosis knowledge when it's love abounding in epignosis knowledge.
 

patrick jane

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Thankfully. Otherwise "the world" would be left with arrogant and ignorant proponents of English fallacies that are sin as doctrine.

Much of your doctrine is sin, and you mock and scoff when anyone dares correct it. You presume it's arrogance when it's faith. You presume it's puffed up gnosis knowledge when it's love abounding in epignosis.

How is Paul's doctrine mostly sin ?
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

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So you are saying that sin (noun) is the anthropological absence (the something lessness) of the Christ essence or hypostasis? And from this our actions follow?

Essentially, that is a decent summary statement. We no real underlying reality of existence as a "real person or being" since Eden. We must be a new creation from within by resurrection into Christ. Our condition from conception as our state of being is incapable of being and doing according to God's standards for inward character as outward conduct. Any attempts on our own are futile and superfluous. We cannot hit any target, whether we do anything or not. This condition is the sin that is in the very internal core nature of our being, and in our members (which are the means of exernal action).

So, essentially, faith is the recognition of one's something lessness and the receiving of it (that which is missing) - the Rhema?

Yes, with repentance being the changed condition of our heart and mind, as granted by God. That's the aspect of faith in confession of sin (the condition, NOT just individual acts resulting from acting). The other aspect of faith is the profession that Christ became every qualitative characteristic and dysfunctional inner and outer activity that we could or have ever had within us or displayed outwardly in any manner; so faith includes the changed disposition of the heart and mind that we CAN live holy and upright because of Him and Him alone empowering us as a new creation from within. Resurrected unto new life now, and finally consummated in everlasting after the final judgment (against which, mercy triumphs on our behalf).

I understand what you are saying but am confused by you language.

within oneself - don't you mean without Christ?

which is the (articular) noun - this is in reference to what?

The anarthrous noun is another issue altogether, and vital. - this is in reference to what?

I'll edit and answer these after looking back to see what you're referencing. I'm trying to catch up. :)
 

patrick jane

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then why are you asking questions about Christianity?

You don't get the idea that Jesus is perfect Teacher.

If you are sincerely seeking to be a true Christian, you will be reading His word and understand what Christianity is all about.

It seems you are just troll pretending to be trying to learn about Christianity.


You deserve a lifetime ban
 

patrick jane

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Asking question to get quick answers from other believers is the biggest mistake.

What a joke. Yeah, don't talk about the bible with anybody, just read Jesus's words and learn as meshak does. Don't ask questions to other believers and reject them at every opportunity
 
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