The Trinity

[Rosenritter]

:wazzup:Hey kid!

:listen:I am about five years younger than him and know what old is. Don't be nuts and mix things up :kookoo: Humans are old past 80, no matter what.

You can call yourself old, it's a state of mind and a relative term. God created us humans to live for ever, and when that was revoked, a thousand years was made to suffice. Look at how old the patriarchs were when then had their first children, it helps to keep perspective.

As for whether age makes one hard headed, stupid, or stubborn, arguing that point and then placing yourself in the same bracket as Keypurr doesn't actually help things, does it? Stubborn is as stubborn does, one can be stubborn with or without age, and age does not make one stubborn. I don't plan on becoming old and I try not to become stubborn. Should I age, that does not necessitate the other.

 

[Rosenritter]

Nope, I do not discard the Law of God if I can help it.

Sin is transgression of his Law. Are you promoting Sin? I hope not.

God also made a law against touching dead things, or eating dried raisins. Hope you're not discarding that law either.

 

[Rosenritter]

Who is the Holy one's Maker?

This comes before Isaiah 45:21

11
Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

13
I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

The "his" is Israel, not "the Holy One." Thus said the Lord. The Lord is the Holy One of Israel. The Lord is the Maker of Israel. This isn't the only place where this type of construction is used in the Old Testament.

 

[Rosenritter]

No one has ever said God is three people. Just because you have donkeyed down on stupid doesn't mean you can get away with making false claims.

Plenty of people have said that, even on this forum. And I don't mean people accusing Trinitarians, I mean from the Trinitarian proponents themselves. Bright Raven acknowledged James White as being a definition for Trinity doctrine, and James White calls God as three persons (people) in the sense that "One Cat" has multiple cats in our world.

Maybe you aren't a real Trinitarian? Or maybe there is more than one division of Trinitarianism. None of the Trinitarians has complained about James White...

 

[glorydaz]

Plenty of people have said that, even on this forum. And I don't mean people accusing Trinitarians, I mean from the Trinitarian proponents themselves. Bright Raven acknowledged James White as being a definition for Trinity doctrine, and James White calls God as three persons (people) in the sense that "One Cat" has multiple cats in our world.

Maybe you aren't a real Trinitarian? Or maybe there is more than one division of Trinitarianism. None of the Trinitarians has complained about James White...

So you're saying that the word persons is always talking about people?

That isn't the case in language, is it? The first person in a sentence can be referring to a dog (if the dog is talking or thinking in the sentence). The second person in a sentence can be a dog, if you're talking to a dog. The third person can be a dog if you're talking about a dog.

It's your refusal to accept the fact that man is created in the image of God, but not God.

Divine nature is not human nature, but God still has personality, for instance. Having a personality does not make someone a human person. My dog has personality, but is not a human person and my dogs are not people, but they each have their own individual names etc.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

The "his" is Israel, not "the Holy One." Thus said the Lord. The Lord is the Holy One of Israel. The Lord is the Maker of Israel. This isn't the only place where this type of construction is used in the Old Testament.

To make that case you would have to disregard verse 13.

13
I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.


As well as this......

John 5:39

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

 

[Lazy afternoon]

But doesn't scripture say the Spirit was with him fully? Was his vessel/ temple/ body not overflowing with the Holy Spirit?

Please do excuse my ignorance. These are real questions, and I respect your words generally.

God anointing Jesus for His ministry, is not the filling of Him with all the fullness of God.

Only by resurrection was Jesus filled with all the fullness of God.

(However, Jesus being filled with the Fathers word occurred before He was anointed to minister)

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

So you're saying that the word persons is always talking about people?

That isn't the case in language, is it? The first person in a sentence can be referring to a dog (if the dog is talking or thinking in the sentence). The second person in a sentence can be a dog, if you're talking to a dog. The third person can be a dog if you're talking about a dog.

It's your refusal to accept the fact that man is created in the image of God, but not God.

Divine nature is not human nature, but God still has personality, for instance. Having a personality does not make someone a human person. My dog has personality, but is not a human person and my dogs are not people, but they each have their own individual names etc.

So you worship your dog??

 

[God's Truth]

God anointing Jesus for His ministry, is not the filling of Him with all the fullness of God.

Only by resurrection was Jesus filled with all the fullness of God.

(However, Jesus being filled with the Fathers word occurred before He was anointed to minister)

LA

All humans have a spirit. Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God come as a Man.

Jesus was God as a child that grew to a Man and then before his earthly ministry, he was anointed with power by the Holy Spirit.
The apostles had the Holy Spirit before pentecost, but were given power at pentecost to have for their earthly ministry.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I think it's easier if I explain what I mean and then you tell me how you see it differently if that's ok?


I see that you and I have our own Spirit. They are separate but once we are born of God, we are one Spirit as we both have the Holy Spirit.

The difference I see is that we sin, but Jesus didn't, so we show our fleshly nature, but once we are born of God, then we should be living by the will of God and showing more of his nature as we start dying to self, and by that I mean the lusts of the flesh going so that the life of Christ grows in us by the power of the Spirit helping us to overcome and the world should mean nothing to us as God comes first in our lives.

And seeing as Christ didn't sin, he was in the fulness of God bodily, having the full power of the Holy Spirit, we only have the Spirit by measure, the more we deny sin and live by the will of God the stronger we become in the Spirit and the more he helps us to overcome sin, teaching and guiding us daily. I don't see Jesus as being the father, but the Son. And he was born of God from the womb, so God was always with him.

How do you see it differently thanks. And yes I'm well. Been very busy I hope you are well too

I see a singular point differently; to the extent that I feel it is necessary to note.

Your words are quoted below;

"I see that you and I have our own Spirit."

The difference is what I am hoping to be a typo. Saying we as temporal vessels; either of greed, or the Spirit of GOD, have our own spirit is correct. However; equating our spirit or the Holy Spirit is great error to me. Though, by the will and mercy of GOD through Christ we may be found as not only servants but siblings of Christ, that still doesn't make our own spirit the spirit of GOD/ Holy Spirit/ comforter. We do not comfort ourselves. Our thoughs and deeds that are to the glorying of GOD are by the will of GOD and by our following the teachings and example of the Christ faithfully. They are by the negation of self, not the equation of self to the Holy Spirit.

Like I said; I hope it was a typo.

I agree with all you said past that singular point.

I am glad you are well.

peace

 

[God's Truth]

So much false beliefs when there doesn't have to be.

People arguing about not having to obey.

People arguing that God the Father did not come as a Man.

The truth is easy and simple.

We have to believe and obey.

Jesus is God the Father come as a Man.

 

[Bright Raven]

So much false beliefs when there doesn't have to be.

People arguing about not having to obey.

People arguing that God the Father did not come as a Man.

The truth is easy and simple.

We have to believe and obey.

Jesus is God the Father come as a Man.

We just can't believe and obey the way you do.

 

[popsthebuilder]

God anointing Jesus for His ministry, is not the filling of Him with all the fullness of God.

Only by resurrection was Jesus filled with all the fullness of God.

(However, Jesus being filled with the Fathers word occurred before He was anointed to minister)

LA

(Can we go over the verses speaking of the vessel of the Christ being filled or over flowing with the Spirit of GOD?

I am not denying your perspective or the validity there of; I would simply like to study it here with someone who takes the word seriously and interprets it in simple plain form.

I'll try to start it off.

I don't have the best memory and have only read scriptures for the last 3 or 4 years so bear with me please.


...

I've looked through and am having trouble locating proof texts for my position.

Also; texts asserting that the man Jesus grew in strength and knowledge also shoe that he wasn't utterly filled with the Holy Spirit as His own spirit, but that this was a thing that took place over time.

I withdraw my previous position that His spirit was, from conception, utterly synonymous with the fullness of the Holy Spirit to the extent that creation can be.
I also agree that glorification of Christ, and placement as the right hand of GOD was surely post physical death of the man Jesus, upon His faithful completion of the will of GOD as it pertained to His existence/ purpose.

Sorry; probably hard to read or understand; short on time.

peace)

Matthew: 26. 64. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

[glorydaz]

Just because someone is old does not make their stupid nor stubborn. And eighty-one is hardly old considering we were originally built on the thousand year plan - it's our flesh that ages faster from this fallen world, not necessarily our minds. If Keypurr is stubborn it is because he is Keyprr, not because he has lived eighty-one years.

You can't teach an old dog new tricks is a saying for a reason. There are exceptions to every rule, but don't throw the rule out because you don't like it.

You're too young to be lecturing old people about their minds or their bodies.

 

[glorydaz]

So you worship your dog??

Ah, right over LA's head. Why am I not surprised? :rotfl:

 

[glorydaz]

Trinitarians say that the Father is a person and Jesus is another different and separate person.

Nope....not different....distinct, and not separate.....always One.

You understand that a divine person (God) created a person (man) in His own image, right?

When you're talking about the nature of God and the nature of man, you are bound to have overlapping terms. ... (body, soul, and spirit, for instance). You see all the confusion that has produced right here on TOL. God is a Divine person, and man is a human person. The Divine person is triune, and the human person is triune. Hopefully, man understands that God is far and away superior to the man God created. At least some do.

 

[God's Truth]

We just can't believe and obey the way you do.

Why not?

 

[God's Truth]

Nope....not different....distinct,

Distinct means different.

and not separate.....always One.

Trinitarians say the Father was not on the cross with Jesus---so there is one example where trinitarians do say they are separate.

You understand that a divine person (God) created a person (man) in His own image, right?

There is only one Spirit and Jesus is that one Spirit. That is scripture.

When you're talking about the nature of God and the nature of man, you are bound to have overlapping terms. ... (body, soul, and spirit, for instance). You see all the confusion that has produced right here on TOL. God is a Divine person, and man is a human person. The Divine person is triune, and the human person is triune. Hopefully, man understands that God is far and away superior to the man God created. At least some do.

The Father is Spirit. Jesus is Spirit; and they are one and the same Spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

Distinct means different.

Distinct can refer to what is being done or where one is, yet still be referring to the same entity. Just as US and OUR refer to the same ONE GOD. :think:

Trinitarians say the Father was not on the cross with Jesus---so there is one example where trinitarians do say they are separate.

God is everywhere. Perhaps you just think you know what Trinitarians "say".

There is only one Spirit and Jesus is that one Spirit. That is scripture.

The Father is Spirit. Jesus is Spirit; and they are one and the same Spirit.

I realize you don't have a grasp on the meaning of spirit and the "person" of the Holy Spirit. Part of the problem is that you refuse to believe what is clearly written. Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as "HE" AND "HIM". There is a distinction that you haven't quite grasped.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:​

Now, read those verses with your statements in mind and tell me again you're agreeing with Scripture.

 

[keypurr]

I suspect that this post got lost in the shuffle (I had no idea that this thread was so active!) so I'm reposting it....

Alright, since it doesn't appear that Keypurr is going to offer any more straight answers to my questions, I'll just use the answers he's already given.

Don't say I didn't give you a chance to make better answers later on, Keypurr. These are your own words that you doubled down with by stating that "you do pretty well with your answers". Don't come trying to convince us all that you didn't mean what you said.

Let's review the questions I asked and your answers to them...

I asked the following three questions...

Is it wrong (i.e. immoral) to worship anyone other than God?

Who does the titles "The Alpha and Omega" and "The First and the Last" refer too?

Did God die?​

You answered...



Okay, so if the titles, "The Alpha and Omega" and "The First and the Last" are referring to the Father (i.e. NOT Jesus Christ) and God (i.e. the Father) cannot die, why is it that John, the Apostle that Jesus loved, put the following words into the mouth of Him who called Himself the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last?...

Revelation 1:8 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

11 ...“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches..."

17 ..."“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death....​

And in that same verse, John falls down as dead in the worship of Him who was speaking. It is outright heresy to tolerate the worship of anyone other than God Himself. Jesus Himself said so...

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”​

Who was it that John was worshiping? The Almighty or Jesus, the One who died and lives for ever more?

Or could it be that the two are One?


You claim to base your doctrine on the bible and that you reject the Trinity doctrine on that basis. You also claim that you're tired of people citing the same old verses over and over again. And yet, you fail to avoid contradicting the simplest reading of a passage that you knew I was referencing!

Stop pretending that this is about an allegiance you have to the scripture! It isn't! You have some emotional fixation on this issue that has nothing to do with the bible or anything rational. You need to spend some time seriously thinking and praying about just what it is about the Trinity doctrine that has you so tied up inside. The doctrine of the Trinity is as biblical as anything can be and it is not poly-theism no matter how badly you want to turn it into that. You can go on chasing windmills if you like but I say, stop! Take a break and just relax and think about just what it is that you really have a problem with here and then ask whether that thing real?

Resting in Him,
Clete

I guess you do not read my posts. You say I do not answer your questions then you post my answers in you post.

John worshipped the Father as God and Jesus as the Messiah.

Why do you worship Jesus as God when he tells you that he is not God but God sent him?

It is you who call him God, not me. I only have one God, the same God Jesus has.

You can not defend what is not there.