The Trinity

[JudgeRightly]

What is time to the dead?

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The same as it was before they died.

The instant a person dies, he is either in heaven or hell. Prior to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, those who were righteous were held in "Abraham's Bosom," but have since been transported to heaven.

 

[popsthebuilder]

And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” - Luke 23:43 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke23:43&version=NKJV

Jesus said "today" the thief would be with him in heaven.

Not a week from then, not a month, year, decade, century, or millenium. "Today."

How long after he said that until the end of that day? I would imagine only a few hours.

You're thinking: "Oh, but what about 2 Peter 3:8? I've got you there."

But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2 Peter 3:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:8&version=NKJV

Before you go there, you should probably look at what the context of the verse is, and to do that, you should read the verses before and after it. I'll quote them here for you:

Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder),that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior,knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:1-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:1-9&version=NKJV

Note verse 9:

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

"The Lord is not slack. . . but is longsuffering toward us".

So what is being discussed? God's patience and capability.

"One day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day" is talking about God's patience towards humanity and that He is extraordinarily capable, not about how He experiences time. God is love, and love is patient. He is, as verse 9 states, "longsuffering towards us."

If this verse meant that God is outside of time, patience is one of the many things that God could not have.

The verse also shows us that God is extraordinarily capable, doing in a single day what men may think would take eons, for instance, stretching out the heavens (on a Wednesday, btw).

The answer to my question above is this:

The thief on the cross next to Jesus was with Jesus that very day in heaven.

Wait....you think GOD is confined to a human comstruct(time/ the recording of the passing of events and happenings by man)?

That is also very close to saying that GOD is limited to creation as opposed to all encompassing.

Does that come from thinking the fullness of GOD is limited to the expression of three people?


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[popsthebuilder]

The same as it was before they died.

The instant a person dies, he is either in heaven or hell. Prior to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, those who were righteous were held in "Abraham's Bosom," but have since been transported to heaven.

Okay then.


Could you please provide additional scripture as opposed to a single verse attesting to an eventual resurrection?

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[Lazy afternoon]

You have told me a couple times before that you believe the spirits of the dead stay in their dead bodies/bones. Do you still believe that?

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

They are not with the Lord until Christ returns to raise them from the dead.

LA

 

[keypurr]

Because He loves us and wants us to be with Him forever.

YOUR words friend: To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. In other words, when we (Christians) die, we are immediately transported to Heaven to be with God, and are given a new body to dwell in.


I question why you believe that when you know he is returning to come get us.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

God is not the God of the dead but of the living. (Matthew 17:3)

Nevertheless, David is still dead in his grave to this day--

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Remember the thief on the cross next to Jesus, the one who believed? How soon did Jesus say that the believing thief would be with Jesus in Paradise?

Jesus would remember the thief when Jesus comes into His kingdom, in that day.

(His return and the resurrection)

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The same as it was before they died.

The instant a person dies, he is either in heaven or hell. Prior to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, those who were righteous were held in "Abraham's Bosom," but have since been transported to heaven.

a fairy tail.

 

[Bright Raven]

YOUR words friend: To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. In other words, when we (Christians) die, we are immediately transported to Heaven to be with God, and are given a new body to dwell in.


I question why you believe that when you know he is returning to come get us.

Because the Word says so.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

 

[Bright Raven]

a fairy tail.

Would you show proof of it being a fairy tale.

 

[Bright Raven]

Jesus would remember the thief when Jesus comes into His kingdom, in that day.

(His return and the resurrection)

LA

Wrong! He said he would be with Him in paradise that day. Luke 23:43

 

[keypurr]

Because the Word says so.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

BR if we go to Heaven at Death, why is he returning for us?

THE VERSE MUST BE SPEAKING OF SOMETHING ELSE.

I expect to sleep in my grave til he comes for me.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

a fairy tail.

The same as it was before they died.

The instant a person dies, he is either in heaven or hell. Prior to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, those who were righteous were held in "Abraham's Bosom," but have since been transported to heaven.

Would you show proof of it being a fairy tale.

No scripture says any man will be in Heaven or hell upon his death.

It requires the resurrection of one dead to be with Jesus and it is not even stated that it will be in Heaven yet.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

LA

 

[Bright Raven]

BR if we go to Heaven at Death, why is he returning for us?

THE VERSE MUST BE SPEAKING OF SOMETHING ELSE.

I expect to sleep in my grave til he comes for me.

Are you disregarding the 2 Corinthians passage?

 

[keypurr]

Wrong! He said he would be with Him in paradise that day. Luke 23:43

Where is Paradise BR?

Paradise, where is it?

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This brings up a question as to where is Paradise.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such a one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

How could Jesus be in Paradise the day he died if he had not yet assended to his Father on Sunday?

It appears that the comma was inserted in the wrong place.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Translators are human too.

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

 

[JudgeRightly]

Wait....you think GOD is confined to a human comstruct(time/ the recording of the passing of events and happenings by man)?

The problem is that you're assuming that God created time. He did not.

No, God is supernatural, not confined by the universe because He created the universe.

God is not outside of time, nor did He create it, because time is a prerequisite of creation, "before creation and after creation".

See kgov.com/time

That is also very close to saying that GOD is limited to creation as opposed to all encompassing.

See above.

Does that come from thinking the fullness of GOD is limited to the expression of three people?

No, it comes from having a solid foundational understanding of the Bible.
[MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] I believe you asked me something about cause and effect being equal?

Actually, even from a physics standpoint, the effect is not greater than the cause, due to entropy. The conversion from mass to energy or energy to mass is subject to it.

Even in your "flip a switch and you get atomic boom", there are multiple causes and effects.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Nevertheless, David is still dead in his grave to this day--

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

LA

See this:

Because the Word says so.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

----

Jesus would remember the thief when Jesus comes into His kingdom, in that day.

(His return and the resurrection)

LA

See this:

Wrong! He said he would be with Him in paradise that day. Luke 23:43

 

[keypurr]

Are you disregarding the 2 Corinthians passage?

Disreguarding? NO.

But questioning your understanding of it.

Answer the question, why is he returning for us if we are already in Heaven????

When we die we do not go directly to Heaven.

Its not a trick question friend.

 

[JudgeRightly]

How could Jesus be in Paradise the day he died if he had not yet ascended to his Father on Sunday?

It appears that the comma was inserted in the wrong place.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Translators are human too.

Or perhaps the translators were smarter than you were and knew what they were doing, how to translate, and correctly translated it?

Just saying...

 

[JudgeRightly]

Disregarding? NO.

But questioning your understanding of it.

Answer the question, why is he returning for us if we are already in Heaven????

When we did we do not go directly to Heaven.

Its not a trick question friend.

You're (perhaps intentionally) confusing "us" as in you, me, BR, etc personally with "us" as in believers.

Keypurr, if all of us here having this discussion die before the Lord returns, we will be in heaven, probably discussing this very topic (haha). But there will be those in the Body of Christ who have not died yet. Those are the ones He will be returning for, the ones who have not died yet.

Not us specifically, but "us", the people in Body of Christ who have not died yet.