Doesn't matter. The Father and Jesus are different.
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
Doesn't matter. The Father and Jesus are different.
NWL
Active member
Sorry, I must have misunderstood your viewpoint. There's no need to get frustrated friend, simply point out my mistake, as you have done, and then clarify your be beliefs. From what you communicated I thought you believed in the trinity but not in the classical sense and do not believe that it is explicitly defined in scripture. And just to let you know, I've mentioned the term trinity in my last post to you, but my reasoning encompasses those who regard Jesus to be the Father and Almighty God too, I thought I made that clear in my past pots.
Please with a short definition state what you believe in regards who God is, who the Father is and who Jesus is.
For example:
Classical trinitarian: Believe in One God who is three persons, the Father, Son and HS, each of these persons is separate from each other, all are fully God but yet there is only One God. All persons are co-equal and co-eternal.
My belief: One God who is the Father (1 Cor 8:6), the Father is separate from the son ontologically. Jesus is the Fathers son in the sense that the Father created him (Col 1:15, Rev 3:14, Pro 8:22). The Son is NOT God almighty but is at times referred to as God the same way other persons in the scripture, who aren't God, are called Gods (1 Cor 8:5. Psalms 82:1, Psalms 8:5, 2 Cor 4:4, John 10:34, Exo 7:1).
For your ease I have listed the main questions and points I posed in my last reply to you, there is no burden for you to answer but failure to do so would only imply to that you can't answer because my reasoning, regarding that particular point, is in line with what the bible teaches. I'm not trying to force you to stick to the format below, feel free to simply revert back to my previous post and reply according to that. The points and questions we were discussing in no particular order:
1. Please confirm that according to you "Jesus" in v5 (highlighted in the red) is the same person as the “the One who is and who was and who is coming" in v4(highlighted in green) even though they are distinguished from each other.
(Revelation 1:4, 5) "..John to the seven congregations that are in the province of Asia: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ.."
2. In light of the fact that the KJV has added in phrases and words into its translation which are not found in any manuscripts prior to the majority texts, why is it you see it as better than what the evidence supports?
3. If Paul, when writing Hebrews 7, was writing it from his own viewpoint, yet he understood Jesus was "Melchizedek" and a priest "forever", then why would he say Jesus became "another" priest if he understood Jesus to be that previous priest? I need an explanation that is void from speculation and assumptions.
4. Were the angels represented "as Jehovah" according to the scripture I cited (Genesis 19:24), yay or nay? Please answer plainly without an escape clause ("may")
5. In the statement found in Hebrews 1:1 of "Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets...in these last days has spoken to us by his Son", if we are to "take scripture for what it says", adding nothing to it as you suggest we do, do Paul's words indicate that God spoke by means of Jesus "long ago" or in the "last days"?
6. In regards to what I said about a specific text being applied to two persons, namely Israelite Kings and Jesus. In what I explained when an application is made to two persons, does the second application negate the initial application. For example, does the secondary application made in reference to Jesus in Hebrews 1:5 mean that Jesus is the one being spoken of when King David applied the initial application to himself in Psalm 2:1-2,7, or when it was applied to King David Acts 4:24-26 or when it was applied to King Solomon 2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1Chron 22:10; 28:6? If it does not imply Jesus was the King being spoken of in those initial applications to Human Kings then why is it you say the secondary application made to Jesus in Hebrews 1:8 expresses that Jesus is the King being spoken of in the initial application found in Psalms 45:6 when it should be explicitly clear that the writer of Hebrews knowing King David and his line, foreshadowed Jesus, applied points that were said of them to Jesus but didn't intend the identity of the secondary application to envelop the identity of who was initially being spoken of.
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Look... Stupid in stereo!
[MENTION=15324]NWL[/MENTION] ... like my signature?
Jehovah: ... Isaiah 43:11 and Luke 2:11
NWL... not true Jahovah! You used the term "Savior" in other ways than that.
Jehovah: Isaiah 45:5
NWL: You lie Jahovah! There's other God's! Just read EE's quote of my rebuttal to you. It's so groovy you have me to correct you and your bible, J-Hova!
So... you're an idiot @NWL
Jehovah says this... "Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images"
Graven is "Idol"... or "Created Idol"... and on that note... J-Duns "Idolize Jesus"...so "Idol"... and you call Him "Created". You sir... are biblically retarded and in serious trouble with Jehovah!
You say this...
Bottom line? I quote Jesus the Almighty "EloHIM" self... and you call Him a liar!
Your washed up, rebutted 10 fold and full of self righteous offense at my straight forward calliut of your heavy brainwashing.
Bottom line?
The WatchTower raped your mind and you now have "Stockholm" syndrome.
Yup...
- EE out and done with you, except to bring Titus 1:11 your way.
Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
NWL
Active member
LOOL! Your issue is that you lack understanding of how the bible speaks. You've failed to answer the questions I asked you, hopefully you will make a reply soon.
You accuse me of calling Jehovah a lair since he said "there is no God beside him". Do you lack that much capacity that you failed to see I quoted scripture in defence of this, is it me that claims there are other Gods bedside the One true God or rather, is it the Bible that makes that claim? Lets quickly see
(1 Corinthians 8:5) "..For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God.."
(Psalm 82:1) "..God takes his place in the divine assembly; In the middle of the gods he judges.."
(2 Corinthians 4:4) "..among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.."
(John 10:34) "..Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?.."
(Exodus 7:1) "..Jehovah then said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Pharʹaoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.."
The Bible claims there are other Gods beside Jehovah, not me! You lack understand as to why Jehovah said there is no God beside him. Your understanding of the scriptures are elementary.
I'm looking EXTREMELY forward to your reply to my question as to how there are people called saviours in the Bible even though Jehovah says there is no saviour other than him since this applies EXACTLY the same principle of the use of negative phrases "no God beside me" vs "no saviour beside me".
What I asked: If there can be ONLY saviour how is it possible that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are referred to as saviours using exactly the Hebrew term as applied to God in Isaiah 43:11 that you mentioned? According to Judges 3:9,15 does scripture allow for their to be more than one Savior?
Please keep digging EE, the sooner you dig yourself deep enough in that hole of yours, the sooner I can lay your false teaching to rest. Waiting for ALL your answers to the things I said and asked in my previous posts, not just one in reply to the above.
There's this idiot named Gurucam on the site. You can type 5 words of truth to Him and He replies with 1000 words of twisting scripture. You are identical to him. You have been weighed, measured and tried... and you are a fraud. You have no original theology or faith... you are the WarchTowers Puppet and IT is GOD Jehovah to you!
You are a deceived Satan Promoter that seriously believes the WatchTower isn't a WHORE.
Well, guess what... The WatchTower is a Whore... and you are an IDOL worshipping ADULTEROR.
:thumb:
# Sarcastic Thumb
P.s. I added more...
http://theologyonline.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5034857
NWL
Active member
There is a person called Evil.Eye.<(I)> on this site, instead of being able to answer questions and defend what he believes all the does is accuse you of things, insults you and runs away from clear teachings and questions he can't answer.
I can't believe that you're using my length of replies as a means to discredit me, clearly you're getting desperate.
:thumb:
Exactly... God was born of the bloodline of JACOB when He bound to our flesh.
It was part of that atonement thing. You really are rediculous, LA!
Disgusted with your lies and falsehood,
EE
You call Jehovah a liar. You have no spiritual integrity. Is Isaiah 43:11 true or not?
Also... I now have PROOF that you don't listen or care to learn. You are only here to pedal the WatchTower...
I'm one of Jehovah's witnesses and I will remain as one till the day I die... unless that never happens.
You shout and bagger me because you claim I'm only here to promote "watchtower" material, you then quote writings and expect me to make reply in defence of "watchtower" that you accused me of promoting in the first place.
I'm not here to defend the Watch tower organisation. This is a typical example of shooting the messenger instead of attacking the message.
I did write a big old line of text, as I typically do, that shows Russell wasn't calling Jesus almighty in the sense of being almighty God, but simply in reference to what almighty meant back then (Websters Dictionary, Almighty: possessing all power) which was evident when he used Matt 28:18 just before the statement in question. Matt 28:18 states Jesus received all power and authority in heaven and on earth. Russell calling Jesus almighty in reference to Matt 28:18 and Jesus being almighty God are two different things.
I decided it was better not to post it because I'm not here to defend the society or members in it, but rather discuss and defend the bible.
And no, I won't be carrying our discussion from the trinity thread on to this one. We can finish our discussion where we started it.
NWL
Active member
Answer my question first and I'll answer yours, it's relevant to what your asking. Don't forget I asked you this question many many post ago, and you've yet to answer.
If there can be ONLY saviour how is it possible that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are referred to as saviours using exactly the Hebrew term as applied to God in Isaiah 43:11 that you mentioned? According to Judges 3:9,15 does scripture allow for their to be more than one Savior?
Could you yourself not say you're a Christian that belongs to a denomination or non-denomination and that you will be one until the day you die? If so does that mean that you don't listen or care to learn?
Foolish logic and just plain old EE accusing again.
[MENTION=15324]NWL[/MENTION] ...
You are a fake... Cookie Cutter... Scripture Twisting, Brainwashed, WatchTower Worshipping ...BlowHard!
Yup!
Titus 1:11
You are a fake... Cookie Cutter... Scripture Twisting, Brainwashed, WatchTower Worshipping ...BlowHard!
Yup!
Titus 1:11
NWL
Active member
:rotfl: Well there we have it, straight from the horse's mouth! What makes you think I have to answer your then until you answer mine????
Stop acting like you're not answering my question out of principle, you won't answer because you can't. You can cleary see that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are referred to saviours EVEN THOUGH according to Isa 43:11 it states there is no saviour but GOD! You can't explain this so result to the same accusations and run away from the questions.
You're asking me does God lie, YOU TELL ME! Are Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) saviours or is God a liar according to Isaiah 43:11!?
Answer my question first, that I asked first, and then I'll answer yours, this is a reasonable request on my part.
NWL
Active member
:wave:
Come find me ONLY when you're willing and able to answer the questions I asked you that you keep clearly evading. Please don't pose me any question until you've answered mine.
:cigar:
NWL
Active member
I've only just seen this post. We already have a lot on our plate so I won't delve too deep.
Yes the word proskuneó (varient) is used, but proskuneó does not only relate to "godly worship" but can also mean to pay homage, show respect or giving obeisance as you would before a king or queen or authoritative figure. Furthermore, the proskuneó given to Jesus outlined in scripture such as Hebrews Hebrews 1:6, Phil 2:9-11 does not go to Jesus but to the Father, as shown at the end of Phil 2:11. This corresponds to the fact that Jesus said no ones comes to the "Father expect through [him]" (John 14:6). We Worship the Father (John 4:24) by worshipping through Jesus.Jesus does not keep any of the glory for himself but passes it to the Father because the Father is the one to whom worship ultimately goes to, not Jesus.
Yes, Jesus says he was before Abraham, "before Abraham I was", this in no way shows that he was eternal, if that's what you're saying, but simply that he existed before Abraham did. Again, God existed and then he created his son, God according to Hebrews 1:3 made a copy of himself. God then created all things through Jesus (Hebrews 1:1,2), thus Jesus was there before the founding of the earth and certainly before Abraham. We both agree on this except on the God created Jesus part.
Yes Jesus has all authority, but this isn't comparable to the one who gave Jesus all that authority, it goes without saying that the one who gave Jesus the authority over everything has MORE authority that that person himself. This is clearly outlined in scripture.
(1 Corinthians 15:27) "..For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him.."
We are currently discussing who the A&O is elsewhere, so won't say anything here.
Jesus accepts worship because we can only worship the Father by worshipping through Jesus, hence why he allows it (John 14:6). You state ONLY God can forgive sins, nowhere in the bible does it teach this, Jesus in fact told the apostles they could forgive sins, this certainly didn't make them God, so why claim it made Jesus God, our reasoning must be consistent for it to be credible.
(John 20:21,23) "..Jesus said to them again... If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain those of anyone, they are retained..”
I have a twin brother, we were once the same cell but then split into two cells, we are literal images of each other. My twin and I are certainly not the same persons are we? We are able to clone people today through science are we not, if I were to get your DNA and make a clone/copy of you, does that mean you and that clone/copy are the same person? Simply no.
If you are "the exact representation of a person" it goes without saying that you are NOT the person that you are the exact representation of, if you were the same person, then you wouldn't be a image of that person since you literally are that person. Being a copy/image of something implies you are NOT the thing that you image.
Yes the word proskuneó (varient) is used, but proskuneó does not only relate to "godly worship" but can also mean to pay homage, show respect or giving obeisance as you would before a king or queen or authoritative figure. Furthermore, the proskuneó given to Jesus outlined in scripture such as Hebrews Hebrews 1:6, Phil 2:9-11 does not go to Jesus but to the Father, as shown at the end of Phil 2:11. This corresponds to the fact that Jesus said no ones comes to the "Father expect through [him]" (John 14:6). We Worship the Father (John 4:24) by worshipping through Jesus.Jesus does not keep any of the glory for himself but passes it to the Father because the Father is the one to whom worship ultimately goes to, not Jesus.
Yes, Jesus says he was before Abraham, "before Abraham I was", this in no way shows that he was eternal, if that's what you're saying, but simply that he existed before Abraham did. Again, God existed and then he created his son, God according to Hebrews 1:3 made a copy of himself. God then created all things through Jesus (Hebrews 1:1,2), thus Jesus was there before the founding of the earth and certainly before Abraham. We both agree on this except on the God created Jesus part.
Yes Jesus has all authority, but this isn't comparable to the one who gave Jesus all that authority, it goes without saying that the one who gave Jesus the authority over everything has MORE authority that that person himself. This is clearly outlined in scripture.
(1 Corinthians 15:27) "..For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him.."
We are currently discussing who the A&O is elsewhere, so won't say anything here.
Jesus accepts worship because we can only worship the Father by worshipping through Jesus, hence why he allows it (John 14:6). You state ONLY God can forgive sins, nowhere in the bible does it teach this, Jesus in fact told the apostles they could forgive sins, this certainly didn't make them God, so why claim it made Jesus God, our reasoning must be consistent for it to be credible.
(John 20:21,23) "..Jesus said to them again... If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain those of anyone, they are retained..”
I have a twin brother, we were once the same cell but then split into two cells, we are literal images of each other. My twin and I are certainly not the same persons are we? We are able to clone people today through science are we not, if I were to get your DNA and make a clone/copy of you, does that mean you and that clone/copy are the same person? Simply no.
If you are "the exact representation of a person" it goes without saying that you are NOT the person that you are the exact representation of, if you were the same person, then you wouldn't be a image of that person since you literally are that person. Being a copy/image of something implies you are NOT the thing that you image.
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