The Trinity

[Jerry Shugart]

Certainly, all Israel being saved is not about every single Jew is going to be saved.

Of course "all Israel" will be saved in the future (Jer.31:-34). The unbelievers will be weeded out and those left will be saved:

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zech.13:8-9).​

 

[God's Truth]

Of course "all Israel" will be saved in the future (Jer.31:-34). The unbelievers will be weeded out and those left will be saved:

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zech.13:8-9).​

That is right---the future was when Jesus came the first time. By the time Jesus was on earth and preached, all the faithless Jews were cut off and hardened so that they could not hear Jesus and be saved because Jesus came first for the Jews who qualified for the New Covenant, the New Covenant which was based on faith.

Jesus came first for the Jews who were not cut off...those were the Jews who already belonged to God.

Jesus came first for the Jews who already belonged to God. Jesus said he would not lose one that God gave to him. See, Jesus came first for all who already belonged to God; they were God's and now they had to go through Jesus to remain God's.

When Jesus was crucified, he said then all could come to him to be saved...that means the Jews who were cut off could be saved, and Gentiles could be saved.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Again, Israel is all those who come to Jesus by living faith no matter what nationality and ethnicity they are.

I am still waiting for your evidence that the Scriptures ever refer to "Israel" in that way.

Besides that, in the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:

"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21;11:1).​

In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

According to your ideas the physical descendants of Israel as a nation have been cast away but Paul makes it plain that they haven't.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is right---the future was when Jesus came the first time. By the time Jesus was on earth and preached, all the faithless Jews were cut off and hardened so that they could not hear Jesus and be saved because Jesus came first for the Jews who qualified for the New Covenant, the New Covenant which was based on faith.

The passage which I quoted says cut off and "die", not hardened:

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zech.13:8-9).​

 

[God's Truth]

I am still waiting for your evidence that the Scriptures ever refer to "Israel" in that way.

Besides that, in the end of the tenth chapter of Romans and the beginning of the eleventh chapter Paul states:

"But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid" (Ro.10:21;11:1).​

In this passage when Paul speaks of Israel it is obvious that it is Israel which is made up of the physical descendants of Jacob which is in view: "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

According to your ideas the physical descendants of Israel as a nation have been cast away but Paul makes it plain that they haven't.

Jesus came FIRST for those blood related to Abraham.

Not all were cut off.

Let's start there.

Paul says that he is a Jew and that it proves God did not cast away His people.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus came FIRST for those blood related to Abraham.

Not all were cut off.

Let's start there.

In the verses which I quoted the reference is to the "nation" of Israel according to the flesh.

Paul says that they have not been cast away but you say they have!

 

[God's Truth]

The passage which I quoted says cut off and "die", not hardened:

Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Mark 8:17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zech.13:8-9).​

All have the chance to be saved BEFORE Jesus comes again.

 

[God's Truth]

In the verses which I quoted the reference is to the "nation" of Israel according to the flesh.

Paul says that they have not been cast away but you say they have!

Show where I said they were cast away FOREVER.

 

[God's Truth]

The REMNANT were saved when Jesus came.

Do you acknowledge that some Jews were saved when Jesus came?

Jesus came FIRST for the Lost Sheep of Israel, they were the Jews NOT cut off.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Show where I said they were cast away FOREVER.

You said:

Again, Israel is all those who come to Jesus by living faith no matter what nationality and ethnicity they are.

That hardly leaves room for an Israel that is made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The REMNANT were saved when Jesus came.

We are not talking about a "remnant" being saved but instead "all Israel."

 

[God's Truth]

You said:

That hardly leaves room for an Israel that is made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Who would think that every single Jew would be saved?

That is nonsense.

That is worse than saying everyone who calls themselves 'Christian' will be saved.

 

[God's Truth]

Jerry, you even gave scripture that says 1/3. So how do you ever get all will be saved who are blood related?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.

Why are you quoting all of those verses? The passage which I quoted says cut off and "die", not hardened as you imagine:

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zech.13:8-9).​

 

[God's Truth]

Why are you quoting all of those verses? The passage which I quoted says cut off and "die", not hardened as you imagine:

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zech.13:8-9).​

They were cut off and hardened...had Jesus' words hidden from them...so that Jesus could come FIRST and ONLY for those JEWS who already belonged to God by faith.

The old law was NOT based on faith. That means some Jews had faith and obeyed God, and some Jews obeyed God but did not have faith.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith;

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, you even gave scripture that says 1/3. So how do you ever get all will be saved who are blood related?

Let us look at this passage again:

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zech.13:8-9).​

According to what is said in "bold" we can understand that the third which will remain will be saved. Besides that, let us look at this passage:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

First, we can understand that the "fathers" of those from the houses of Israel and Judah were the ones who broke the covenant and those "fathers" were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Therefore, they are also physical descendants of the same men.

And all of them will know the Lord and all of them will have their sins forgiven and thus be saved.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

They were cut off and hardened...had Jesus' words hidden from them...so that Jesus could come FIRST and ONLY for those JEWS who already belonged to God by faith.

The verses which I quoted says "die," not hardened.

Do you not know the difference between the two?

 

[God's Truth]

The verses which I quoted says "die," not hardened.

Do you not know the difference between the two?

I gave you many scriptures that explain they were hardened. Why are you ignoring those scriptures?

Why are you going against the scripture that says 'die'? Why are you saying all Israel will be saved is about all those blood related to Abraham if the Old Testament says they will 'die'?

What don't you get about God not caring anymore about to whom one is blood related to Abraham?

 

[DavidK]

Are you going by the trinity doctrine which says the three persons are different and separate? If that is what you are saying then you are wrong because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not different and separate, ever.

I think, when pressed, you would probably back down on "not different". If they are not different, then it makes no sense to refer to them with different names, even if they are just different expressions of the same person.

What did the Son mean when He cried out asking the Father why He had been forsaken? How could Jesus express desire that He not have to drink the cup given to Him but submit to the will of the Father? Can one person have two separate wills at the same time?

The only way I can make sense of your assertion that they are all the same person is that God must have been putting on an elaborate show for us by pretending to be separate people. Why did He choose to do that?

The Son IS God the Father come in the flesh. Remember, there is only ONE Spirit.
Remember, God the Father created everything…Jesus created everything.

Yes, there is one Holy Spirit. There is one Father. There is one begotten Son of the Father. Together they are one in being, and together they created everything.

You are not Jesus either. Do you think you are Jesus? Do you think you are Jesus since God hears you? So then, your blood does what for the world’s sin? How is it that I am speaking of Jesus and it turns to you?

No, I don't think I'm Jesus. No, I don't think the Father hearing me makes me Jesus. My blood currently does nothing but sustain my body.

You were trying to demonstrate something by the fact that Jesus said He knows the Father always hears Him. I'm saying the Father always hears me, so it doesn't show anything. You seem to have gotten my point completely backwards.

 

[God's Truth]

Let us look at this passage again:

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zech.13:8-9).​

According to what is said in "bold" we can understand that the third which will remain will be saved. Besides that, let us look at this passage:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

First, we can understand that the "fathers" of those from the houses of Israel and Judah were the ones who broke the covenant and those "fathers" were the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Therefore, they are also physical descendants of the same men.

And all of them will know the Lord and all of them will have their sins forgiven and thus be saved.

Again, THAT IS A THIRD. There were a remnant of Jews saved WHEN Jesus walked the earth, and only a remnant will be saved when Jesus comes again.

It will be too late for anyone to be saved when Jesus comes because he comes as a thief.

That means we have to be ready and in the Lord when he comes.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Are you going by the trinity doctrine which says the three persons are different and separate? If that is what you are saying then you are wrong because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not different and separate, ever.

Is this passage missing from your bible, it shows all 3 different and completely separate.

Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”