The Trinity

[God's Truth]

I think, when pressed, you would probably back down on "not different". If they are not different, then it makes no sense to refer to them with different names, even if they are just different expressions of the same person.

They are NOT different. Everything that Jesus SAYS---it is what the Father says.
Everything that Jesus DOES---it is what the Father does.
In fact, when you see Jesus one day, you will be able to say, “I see the Father.”

What did the Son mean when He cried out asking the Father why He had been forsaken? How could Jesus express desire that He not have to drink the cup given to Him but submit to the will of the Father? Can one person have two separate wills at the same time?

Jesus’ will was to do the will of the Father.

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

That is about Jesus not letting his flesh guide him into pleasing it.

God the Father really did come as a Man He did not pretend to come as a Man.

Yes, there is one Holy Spirit. There is one Father. There is one begotten Son of the Father. Together they are one in being, and together they created everything.

The Father IS Spirit. Jesus IS Spirit and the Holy Spirit is Spirit---but there is only ONE SPIRIT. Think about it some more.

No, I don't think I'm Jesus. No, I don't think God hearing me makes me Jesus. My blood currently does nothing but sustain my body.

Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh, the scriptures say JESUS is the Spirit, and that there is only ONE Spirit.

You were trying to demonstrate something by the fact that Jesus said He knows the Father always hears Him. I'm saying the Father always hears me, so it doesn't show anything. You seem to have gotten my point completely backwards.

No. You are the one who trying to disprove me made Jesus a mere man such as yourself.

 

[God's Truth]

Is this passage missing from your bible, it shows all 3 different and completely separate.

They are not separate. They are ALWAYS together and in agreement.

Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!”

Okay, the Father is Spirit, correct?

Do you agree that the Father is Spirit?

Do you agree that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God that goes forth from God without a limit according to how many people He lives in and ascends upon?

So then, God the Father is Spirit and lives in unapproachable light; He stayed in heaven but also came to earth and put His Spirit in a flesh body of the one called Jesus.

When Jesus, who is God the Father in the flesh come as a Man went to get baptized---the Holy Spirit came upon him with power for his earthly ministry.

The Apostles were also given the Holy Spirit BEFORE the Holy Spirit came upon them with power before they started their earthly ministry.

 

[DavidK]

They are NOT different. Everything that Jesus SAYS---it is what the Father says.
Everything that Jesus DOES---it is what the Father does.
In fact, when you see Jesus one day, you will be able to say, “I see the Father.”

That is because He is the perfect expression of the Father, He is begotten of, comes from, and is in unity with the Father. Not because they are the same person.

Jesus’ will was to do the will of the Father.

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

That is about Jesus not letting his flesh guide him into pleasing it.

God the Father really did come as a Man He did not pretend to come as a Man.

So, more play acting? When He asked to have the cup pass from Him, He didn't actually want that?

No. You are the one who trying to disprove me made Jesus a mere man such as yourself.

Do you believe Jesus had two feet? I hope you do, and if you do, does my statement, "I also have two feet" make Jesus a mere man such as myself?

By very definition, Jesus coming in the flesh means He shares attributes with all men. A physical body. We're told he was tested in all points as we are, so He even had an experience in relationship to sin like we do. Of course, He never gave into temptation and sinned, unlike you and me, so that's where that similarity ends.

My point was that God hears all who call upon Him. This was not unique to Jesus.

Perhaps I still don't know what you were intending by bringing that into the conversation. What point were you trying to make by saying that the Father always hears Jesus? It certainly doesn't point to the being the same person. It points the opposite direction, since any person saying "I always hear myself" would be making a meaningless statement.

 

[DavidK]

When Jesus, who is God the Father in the flesh come as a Man went to get baptized---the Holy Spirit came upon him with power for his earthly ministry.

If the Holy Spirit came upon Him, how is it that they are never separate? What would that statement even mean if the Holy Spirit was already with Him?

This modalism defies all the sense of language. Scripture becomes an elaborate construct saying what it doesn't actually mean.

 

[God's Truth]

That is because He is the perfect expression of the Father, He is begotten of, comes from, and is in unity with the Father. Not because they are the same person.

They ARE the same.

Jesus says that he is the First and the Last; he is the Father, the Rock, the Holy One; the Redeemer, the Savior…all those things are what God the Father says about Himself and those names are Jesus’ names.

So, more play acting? When He asked to have the cup pass from Him, He didn't actually want that?

God the Father was NOT play acting, He REALLY came as a Man, and as a Man, it hurts to die physically.

Do you believe Jesus had two feet? I hope you do, and if you do, does my statement, "I also have two feet" make Jesus a mere man such as myself?

I was speaking about the Father and the Son---you are the one who brought yourself into it by saying God hears you pray so does that make you Jesus.

By very definition, Jesus coming in the flesh means He shares attributes with all men. A physical body. We're told he was tested in all points as we are, so He even had an experience in relationship to sin like we do. Of course, He never gave into temptation and sinned, unlike you and me, so that's where that similarity ends.

My point was that God hears all who call upon Him. This was not unique to Jesus.

…but we are talking about JESUS, not about us.

Perhaps I still don't know what you were intending by bringing that into the conversation. What point were you trying to make by saying that the Father always hears Jesus? It certainly doesn't point to the being the same person. It points the opposite direction, since any person saying "I always hear myself" would be making a meaningless statement.

There are three but the three are one and the same.
Tell me if you will agree with the scriptures which say there is only ONE SPIRIT.
Tell me if you will agree with the scriptures that say Jesus is Spirit.
Now if you believe there is only one Spirit, how do you EVER get that Jesus is ANOTHER different and separate Spirit from the Father?
Please answer that.

 

[Angel4Truth]

If the Holy Spirit came upon Him, how is it that they are never separate? What would that statement even mean if the Holy Spirit was already with Him?

This modalism defies all the sense of language. Scripture becomes an elaborate construct saying what it doesn't actually mean.

Jesus was throwing His voice also, to tell Himself He was well pleased with Himself and that He was His own Son.

 

[God's Truth]

If the Holy Spirit came upon Him, how is it that they are never separate? What would that statement even mean if the Holy Spirit was already with Him?

Do you remember when the Apostles first received the Holy Spirit?

It was before Pentecost.

John 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.


Did you read that?

Now what happens at Pentecost?

At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came upon them with POWER so that they could preach the gospel with power.

Luke 24:49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

Acts 18:1 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you;


When Jesus was saved, he already had the Holy Spirit living in him; his Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

All humans have a spirit, but Jesus' Spirit was the Holy Spirit, and when he was baptized he received power to preach his ministry with miracles.

Do you see now from the scriptures that one could have the Holy Spirit living inside them and also have the Holy Spirit come upon them for power?

This modalism defies all the sense of language. Scripture becomes an elaborate construct saying what it doesn't actually mean.

I am not a modalist, for modalists say there are three, but that the three do not exist at the same time.

I also am not a trinitarian, even though the trinitarians say there are three, because they erroneously say the three are distinct/different and separate.

 

[DavidK]

Do you remember when the Apostles first received the Holy Spirit?

It was before Pentecost.

John 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit also came upon people before Jesus came. There's a difference between the Spirit resting on someone and indwelling them.

Do you see now from the scriptures that one could have the Holy Spirit living inside them and also have the Holy Spirit come upon them for power?

No. Still seems nonsensical. Jesus says that if He does not go, the Spirit will not come. Why would He say that if the Spirit was already indwelling them?

I am not a modalist, for modalists say there are three, but that the three do not exist at the same time.

I also am not a trinitarian, even though the trinitarians say there are three, because they erroneously say the three are distinct/different and separate.

My apologies if I've mislabeled. It's my understanding that modalists say there is only one, but that one comes in different forms/offices, which is what I was understanding from you.

If there is, indeed, absolutely no difference or distinction, why does scripture use different, distinct names/descriptions?

 

[God's Truth]

The Spirit also came upon people before Jesus came. There's a difference between the Spirit resting on someone and indwelling them.

Yeah that is what I said, and that is what you are using to say Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.

No. Still seems nonsensical. Jesus says that if He does not go, the Spirit will not come. Why would He say that if the Spirit was already indwelling them?

When Jesus breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit…remember the scripture I gave you about that? Was that before or after Jesus died? Think about it harder.

My apologies if I've mislabeled. It's my understanding that modalists say there is only one, but that one comes in different forms/offices, which is what I was understanding from you.

If there is, indeed, absolutely no difference or distinction, why does scripture use different, distinct names/descriptions?

The different names are really not so different. Think about that some more too.

 

[God's Truth]

DavidK, just to recap what you have to think about harder, so that maybe we can go deeper in this discussion, or you even come to agree:

How many Divine Spirits are there?

Can a person with the Holy Spirit also be given the Holy Spirit with power?

Is Jesus all the things that the Father is? Is Jesus the Spirit, Father, the First and the Last, Creator, Redeemer, Savior, Rock, Holy One of Israel, Husband, Shepherd, the circumciser of hearts, the One who gives life,the one who raises the dead, the one to whom the commands belong, the one who lives in believers, the one we bow to, the one who draws us, the one who sanctifies us, the one who sends and pours out the Spirit?

All those names are what GOD THE FATHER is called, and all those names are what Jesus is called.

So tell me how they are different and separate.

 

[DavidK]

They ARE the same.

Jesus says that he is the First and the Last; he is the Father, the Rock, the Holy One; the Redeemer, the Savior…all those things are what God the Father says about Himself and those names are Jesus’ names.

That's because He is the perfect reflection and expression of the Father, not because He is the same person. He also says things like "Only the Father knows". Does the Father somehow hide knowledge He has from Himself?

God the Father was NOT play acting, He REALLY came as a Man, and as a Man, it hurts to die physically.

So He changed His mind? He wanted to escape the cross for a moment, then decided to go along with it after all, and only expressed this as submitting to someone else's will as an act for the apostles to see?

It still comes back to play acting.

I was speaking about the Father and the Son---you are the one who brought yourself into it by saying God hears you pray so does that make you Jesus.

I didn't say that made me Jesus. It doesn't. The Father hears all who call upon Him. It's not something unique to the Son.

There are three but the three are one and the same.
Tell me if you will agree with the scriptures which say there is only ONE SPIRIT.
Tell me if you will agree with the scriptures that say Jesus is Spirit.
Now if you believe there is only one Spirit, how do you EVER get that Jesus is ANOTHER different and separate Spirit from the Father?
Please answer that.

Clearly there are more than one spirit. Luke 9:55, people can be of another spirit (pneuma) than the Holy Spirit.

I'm guessing you are referring to Ephesians 4:4, in which the same word, pneuma, is translated, "spirit". Clearly from context he is saying that there is only one Spirit in the church, just like the church is only one body.

Nevertheless, yes, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of one spirit. That, however, is far from enough to say they are completely indistinct, one from another.

1 Corinthians 6:17 And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit (pneuma).

So if there is ONE SPIRIT, and being of one spirit makes the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit identical, then by logic 1 Cor 6:17 makes us identical, lacking any difference or separation with God.

 

[DavidK]

How many Divine Spirits are there?

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in spirit. All who are joined to God by the faith and the cross are of the same spirit. This does not make any of them identical.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, but one being.

Can a person with the Holy Spirit also be given the Holy Spirit with power?

I don't recognize a distinction. I do recognize a distinction between how the Spirit temporarily came upon people before Jesus, and how his death, resurrection and ascension paved the way for the Spirit to indwell believers.

Is Jesus all the things that the Father is? Is Jesus the Spirit, Father, the First and the Last, Creator, Redeemer, Savior, Rock, Holy One of Israel, Husband, Shepherd, the circumciser of hearts, the One who gives life,the one who raises the dead, the one to whom the commands belong, the one who lives in believers, the one we bow to, the one who draws us, the one who sanctifies us, the one who sends and pours out the Spirit?

Jesus is the lamb who was slain and is now risen and sits at the right hand of the Father and who is the only one worthy to open the seals. The Father is not the lamb who was slain and is now risen and does not sit at His own right hand.

Jesus does not dwell inside me directly, He does so by His Spirit.

There are distinctions.

For your evidence, it is not enough to say that the Son is entirely like the Father. Jesus said that. You need also show that the Father is entirely like the Son. The Son is begotten of the Father. Is the Father begotten of Himself?

While on earth, Jesus did not know the time appointed for Him to return. Only the Father knew. At some point they had different amounts of knowledge, which can only happen if there is some sort of distinction between them.

Jesus said He only did what He saw the Father doing. How does "I only do what I see myself doing" make any sense? Asserting that there is absolutely no difference between all three renders a great deal of scripture meaningless, unless it is all an elaborate ruse for some reason.

All those names are what GOD THE FATHER is called, and all those names are what Jesus is called.

So tell me how they are different and separate.

A son receives names from his father. A son proceeds from his father and reflects his father. No one would expect a good son of a good father to be wholly different. Especially if they are of one being.

Nevertheless, I've given a couple examples of how they are different.

If they are never separate, what do you make of all the verses that speak of coming from and going to? How can they have any meaning if there is no difference or separation?

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus said this;

John 10
25: Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness to me;
26: but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep.
27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;
28: and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
29: My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30: I and the Father are one."

The reason Jesus said that he and his Father were one is because he learned that "man was created in the image of God".

That is just plain silly.

 

[God's Truth]

That's because He is the perfect reflection and expression of the Father, not because He is the same person.

You asked why they had different names, and I showed you where their names are the same.

He also says things like "Only the Father knows". Does the Father somehow hide knowledge He has from Himself?

That is right that is while Jesus was a Man on earth.

Jesus is not a Man on earth anymore.

So He changed His mind? He wanted to escape the cross for a moment, then decided to go along with it after all, and only expressed this as submitting to someone else's will as an act for the apostles to see?

So you think you disproved what I said how?

It still comes back to play acting.

God really came as a Man how do you get it could be a play act?

I didn't say that made me Jesus. It doesn't. The Father hears all who call upon Him. It's not something unique to the Son.

We are not talking about you though.
The Father hears you but that does not make you God, or the Creator, Redeemer, Savior, Shepherd, etc.

Clearly there are more than one spirit. Luke 9:55, people can be of another spirit than the Holy Spirit.

Again, it is NOT about you. We know there are MANY spirits, but only One Divine Spirit.

Read more carefully for I said ONE DIVINE Spirit.
Is God not Divine? Is Jesus Divine? Is the Holy Spirit Divine?

Yes they are and they are one and the same Spirit.

Your spirit is NOT Divine.

I'm guessing you are referring to Ephesians 4:4, in which the same word, pneuma, is translated, "spirit". Clearly from context he is saying that there is only one Spirit in the church, just like the church is only one body.

Nevertheless, yes, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of one spirit. That, however, is far from enough to say they are completely indistinct, one from another.

There is only ONE SPIRIT that means Jesus is God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:17 And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.

So if there is ONE SPIRIT, and being of one spirit makes the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit identical, then by logic 1 Cor 6:17 makes us identical, lacking any difference or separation with God.

We have our own spirit, which when we obey God we are transformed into the likeness of His Son, but that does NOT make us God, Father, Savior, Redeemer, Shepherd, etc.

Those are the name of God the Father and the Son.

 

[DavidK]

Yeah that is what I said, and that is what you are using to say Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.

I'm saying that when Jesus breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit", he was giving them the Spirit in a way that the Spirit came upon men before His death, resurrection, and ascension. In those days, the Spirit would fall and lift at His will.

So when He sent them into the upper room to pray for ten days, He was telling them to wait for His spirit to come back to them and indwell.

I'm not using that at all to say Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. I'm using the fact that He said He had to leave in order that the Spirit be sent to say that they are separate, because that statement makes zero sense if they are the same person.

When Jesus breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit…remember the scripture I gave you about that? Was that before or after Jesus died? Think about it harder.

In love and humility, I want to let you know how much "Think about it harder" comes across as condescending. I've been enjoying this conversation so far as two people who study scripture with different interpretations. If it's going to be you as the learned master encouraging me, the bumbling student, I will quickly lose interest.

You have yet to address why we see many examples of interaction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit if they are one, indivisible person. Why did God sometimes act like multiple people if He isn't?

 

[Bright Raven]

They are not separate. They are ALWAYS together and in agreement.



Okay, the Father is Spirit, correct?

Do you agree that the Father is Spirit?

Do you agree that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God that goes forth from God without a limit according to how many people He lives in and ascends upon?

So then, God the Father is Spirit and lives in unapproachable light; He stayed in heaven but also came to earth and put His Spirit in a flesh body of the one called Jesus.

When Jesus, who is God the Father in the flesh come as a Man went to get baptized---the Holy Spirit came upon him with power for his earthly ministry.

The Apostles were also given the Holy Spirit BEFORE the Holy Spirit came upon them with power before they started their earthly ministry.

Jesus is not God the Father. They are different.

John 14:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus is not God the Father. They are different.

John 14:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

That scripture proves they are the same.

That scripture is about when we are given the Holy Spirit.

When we are saved we are given ONE SPIRIT.

 

[Bright Raven]

Do you remember when the Apostles first received the Holy Spirit?

It was before Pentecost.

John 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.


Did you read that?

Now what happens at Pentecost?

At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came upon them with POWER so that they could preach the gospel with power.

Luke 24:49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

Acts 18:1 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you;


When Jesus was saved, he already had the Holy Spirit living in him; his Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

All humans have a spirit, but Jesus' Spirit was the Holy Spirit, and when he was baptized he received power to preach his ministry with miracles.

Do you see now from the scriptures that one could have the Holy Spirit living inside them and also have the Holy Spirit come upon them for power?



I am not a modalist, for modalists say there are three, but that the three do not exist at the same time.

I also am not a trinitarian, even though the trinitarians say there are three, because they erroneously say the three are distinct/different and separate.

When Jesus was saved??? Are you serious.

 

[God's Truth]

I'm saying that when Jesus breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit", he was giving them the Spirit in a way that the Spirit came upon men before His death, resurrection, and ascension. In those days, the Spirit would fall and lift at His will.

No. Jesus said receive the Spirit. The Old Testament was about the Spirit coming UPON others.

So when He sent them into the upper room to pray for ten days, He was telling them to wait for His spirit to come back to them and indwell.

No. Not to come back to them...but to come UPON them with POWER.

I'm not using that at all to say Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. I'm using the fact that He said He had to leave in order that the Spirit be sent to say that they are separate, because that statement makes zero sense if they are the same person.

John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Jesus says to his Apostles that they know the Holy Spirit because he lives with them. JESUS WAS THE ONE LIVING WITH THEM. Jesus is the Holy Spirit.


Jesus said that he would send another comforter, the Holy Spirit. He also said that he would not leave them as orphans that HE WILL COME TO THEM.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

This is at the time Jesus told them that he would send them another comforter. Jesus explains to them that it is HE.

Instead of their thinking Jesus is coming to live with them in the flesh again, he says another, because he is not coming to them in the flesh, but in another way...just in the Spirit.

In love and humility, I want to let you know how much "Think about it harder" comes across as condescending. I've been enjoying this conversation so far as two people who study scripture with different interpretations. If it's going to be you as the learned master encouraging me, the bumbling student, I will quickly lose interest.

I do NOT mean it that way.

I mean that I do not think that you are considering carefully everything that I am saying because you are asking the same questions which I already gave an answer; and, you are not even discussing many of my points and scriptures that I am giving.

I hope that you do not lose interest for having your pride hurt. That would defeat what you are trying to say about humbleness. Please let's keep talking about it.

You have yet to address why we see many examples of interaction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit if they are one, indivisible person. Why did God sometimes act like multiple people if He isn't?

There ARE three.

 

[Bright Raven]

That scripture proves they are the same.

That scripture is about when we are given the Holy Spirit.

When we are saved we are given ONE SPIRIT.

That scripture proves that they are separate. Check out the use of the pronoun we, more than one.