The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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If we extract ourselves from the abstract, and look at the words we're using, right on the screen, we recall that there are nouns and verbs and other types of words. "God" is a noun. Based on what we know about God, we can always trust that there is no other noun to which God is subject. I include "time" in that.
I might agree that matter cannot exists without time, but I don't agree that time cannot exists without matter.
I think the only reason matter could ever exist at all is because there was already time.
If GOD is everywhere, wouldn't it be right to say that GOD is within every single atom/molecule/particle that exists in creation?
The whole universe is held together by GOD.
Colossians 1:16-17 KJV
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
I think the only reason matter could ever exist at all is because there was already time.
If GOD is everywhere, wouldn't it be right to say that GOD is within every single atom/molecule/particle that exists in creation?
The whole universe is held together by GOD.
Colossians 1:16-17 KJV
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Right Divider
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As steko has said, God is self-existent. If God existed in time, that would not be true.
God existed BEFORE any of that stuff. If we start to go down that path too far, we end of up with pantheism.
No doubt.
Including time.
To a point, I would agree.
But "faith" is also a noun, but we certainly don't consider faith to be a tangent thing of matter.
Likewise, "love" is also a noun but not a tangent thing of matter.
So where do faith and love come from?
Perhaps, perhaps not.
Love and faith exist, but are they created?
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Did you bother to look at any of those links that gave you?
Time is not independent of the remainder of the material world.
Well I don't know that saying existed "in" time is proper.
Love existed before creation, but we don't say GOD existed "in" love; nor do we say that because love existed before creation that GOD was not self-existent.
See what I mean? Does that make sense?
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Love is an attribute of God. Time is not.
Sometime I will look at links posted.
I prefer not to while I'm asking questions that are on my mind so as to not be biased.
And also because I'm not even looking for scientific studies of time, but the theological study of time.
If things like love and time could be utterly destroyed and eliminated, then they would have to be part of creation (ie. created).
I don't see either as created or even possible of being eliminated.
What's nice about that analogy is that it helps when explaining to atheists and God-haters in general about how it's not wrong for God to bring his creation into the next life. It goes something like this:
Anti-God person: Well God killed x number of people in the Bible
Me (or any Christian): God still has yet to kill several billion more during the end times... If you created something, and designed it to have 2 stages, Stage One and Stage Two, and once it's in Stage Two, it can't go back to Stage One, would it be inherently wrong for you, as it's creator, to bring it from Stage One to Stage Two?
A-G person; something something well that's different something something yada yada yada
Me(): No, it's not different. Think of it this way, God made us to live this life out on the front porch, but has prepared 2 houses for us. When we die, if we had repented of our sins, we would go through the front door and into the living room of the house that represents Heaven. But if we had not repented, then the house we entered represented Hell. However, because God is our Creator, He has every right to do what He wants with His creation, as it is His to do with as he sees fit.
God is just, so even when God cleansed the Earth with the Flood, He was bringing justice to those who were immoral. God is also merciful, so by killing the children as well, He spared them from being influenced by the culture around them, and gave them the ability to choose between being with Him and being separated from Him, where before they would not have had any choice.
Does God exist in Heaven?
Once again, in order to have a sequence of events, there must be time. 'Before' and 'after' refer to a sequence.
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I agree with you on time because it is a measure. God did bless us with stars, the moon, sun and seasons that we can "measure" the passage of the "concept" of time with. But, I theologically think of infinity when I think of God.
If time existed "with" God, then that train track of infinite time would go backwards from our present day and have no end. This would mean that it would be impossible to have a "train station" of time that everything started from to get here.
It only "makes sense" to me if I think of "timeless", infinite God creating what we know as the tangible reality that surrounds us, and providing a measure for the passage of "time" as we perceive it.
#Curses! I "could" have "used" more "quotation" marks.
#Satirizing my own "writing" style
I fully understand the analogy and it makes discussion succinct, when one discusses the matters you described. That's pretty nifty! I tend to embrace analogies and parables rapidly and it's cool that Jesus shares so much with us through such a vehicle as parables and analogies.
God definitely simplifies matters for us. Why not? He knows we tend to complicate them anyways.
# Lol... Pointing at myself as complicating things
This is discussed in the time article. Please read it (objectively, if you would
)I asked you to be objective when reading, so that you could try to understand the argument being made. You're not being objective, and you're "jumping the gun" with your conclusion.
I think you need to (re-)read the whole article (again), and not make any objections until you're done reading it.
I want to reiterate here to you that a measurement of time is not itself time. For example, a day, week, hour, second, moment, those are all measurements of time, and not actually time themselves.
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I have been caught saying; "If God were personality profiled, Love would be the most authoritative attribute of Him."
Once I remember this, Faith and Hope spring out of everything, but are clearly the result of God's Love!
: )
This is discussed in the time article. Please read it (objectively, if you would
I asked you to be objective when reading, so that you could try to understand the argument being made. You're not being objective, and you're "jumping the gun" with your conclusion.
I think you need to (re-)read the whole article (again), and not make any objections until you're done reading it.
I want to reiterate here to you that a measurement of time is not itself time. For example, a day, week, hour, second, moment, those are all measurements of time, and not actually time themselves.
Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app
On your statements of time as a "measurement" and not as a "thing" towards me... Yes. I agree.
I understand your "pantheism" statement...
But, consider this scripture;
Colossians 1:15-16
It seems to express what [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION] was simply pondering, but not asserting.
Seeing as how we all know Jesus is God, in current circle of discussion, we can look deeper into this verse. (For enjoying the wonderful gift we have of pondering mysteries we will only really know when we can ask Jesus!)
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I understand your approach as far as being careful. In the case of those time links, I'd give them a chance. Just because we learn about our planet with the senses that God gave us, doesn't mean that we can only look in the Bible for facts.
Love was not created and cannot be destroyed. It is an attribute of God.
Time and space are inseparable.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).
Now perhaps you will answer what I said to you earlier:
Those who exist in time are constrained by the force of time. They cannot go back in time and they cannot enter into the future or even know what will happen in the future. That concept of time cannot be denied.
The LORD is not constrained at all by the force of time since He knows the future.
Thanks!
I'll probably take a peek at some time.
But I have my doubts it is anything I have not heard before, as Open View is one of the main themes TOL pushes and there have been tons of debates and discussion about it.
But I still leave my options open.
I would have to say that the Father has always loved the Son.
How do you love without time?
I mean, what could even be done if it was timeless?