The Trinity

The Trinity

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JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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keypurr said:
Just a view from a Unitarian God believer.
Why would a three piece God change the dilemma?
Basic question still the same.

Silly me, went through life for over eighty years and did not realize there was a dilemma to solve.

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A Trinitarian view provides a solid foundation for an answer to the dilemma.

Remember when Christ said *“If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true"? Well, this applies to everyone, including God. If God existed for Eternity past alone, then we only have His testimony to go off of, and we wouldn't be able to believe Him. (Allah has this exact same problem.)

This is why God said to go off of 2-3 witnesses (not eyewitnesses, just witnesses, meaning evidence) to determine a matter. This is why the Trinity is important. For if God is singular, there's only one witness to all of eternity past. However, with a Trinity, God Himself meets that requirement for justice, where the testimony of the other two persons provides evidence that the one has remained righteous. Even a duality meets the "2-3 witnesses" criteria.

A full explanation is below.

http://kgov.com/christian-answer-to-euthyphro-dilemma

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keypurr

keypurr

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JudgeRightly said:
A Trinitarian view provides a solid foundation for an answer to the dilemma.

Remember when Christ said *“If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true"? Well, this applies to everyone, including God. If God existed for Eternity past alone, then we only have His testimony to go off of, and we wouldn't be able to believe Him. (Allah has this exact same problem.)

This is why God said to go off of 2-3 witnesses (not eyewitnesses, just witnesses, meaning evidence) to determine a matter. This is why the Trinity is important. For if God is singular, there's only one witness to all of eternity past. However, with a Trinity, God Himself meets that requirement for justice, where the testimony of the other two persons provides evidence that the one has remained righteous. Even a duality meets the "2-3 witnesses" criteria.

A full explanation is below.

http://kgov.com/christian-answer-to-euthyphro-dilemma

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Thank you friend I find that interesting.

Now let's consider our God the Father. He created his exact copy and gave it his fullness. This spirit creature son was created first, firstborn of all creatures. Now God decided to create everything else and he did it through this spirit.

Consider that would also include time as we know it. That would pretty much discribe how I see God and his son. The son is a spirit like his Father. He was with God at the beginning. I believe that at one time God was alone and everything and everybody is a creation. Our Lord is the highest of all creation. He is the Son that God SENT to us, not Jesus.

You must think that this is far out, yes it is, but it is truth as I see it in scripture. It was not easy to digest and accept it myself, but I Sincerly believe my personal for understanding were answered.

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JudgeRightly

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keypurr said:
Thank you friend I find that interesting.

Now let's consider our God the Father. He created his exact copy and gave it his fullness. This spirit creature son was created first, firstborn of all creatures. Now God decided to create everything else and he did it through this spirit.

Consider that would also include time as we know it. That would pretty much discribe how I see God and his son. The son is a spirit like his Father. He was with God at the beginning. I believe that at one time God was alone and everything and everybody is a creation. Our Lord is the highest of all creation. He is the Son that God SENT to us, not Jesus.

You must think that this is far out, yes it is, but it is truth as I see it in scripture. It was not easy to digest and accept it myself, but I Sincerly believe my personal for understanding were answered.

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So you think that God is outside of time?

See kgov.com/time.

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jamie

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keypurr said:
The Aramaic English NT disagrees with you.

YHWH is the name of the most high.
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Scripture does not reveal the name of the Most High (which is not a name either).

God is not a personal name, lord is not a personal name, christ is not a personal name, spirit is not a personal name, holy is not a personal name, word is not a personal name.

Jesus is a personal name because scripture says so.

But I'm curious, why do you believe the Son is not immortal? Also, son is not a personal name.
 
keypurr

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jamie said:
Scripture does not reveal the name of the Most High (which is not a name either).

God is not a personal name, lord is not a personal name, christ is not a personal name, spirit is not a personal name, holy is not a personal name, word is not a personal name.

Jesus is a personal name because scripture says so.

But I'm curious, why do you believe the Son is not immortal? Also, son is not a personal name.
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The terms Father and son are just a way for for God to relate to us. The Aramaic uses YHWH as the most high. The notes are long. There is so much to learn in this translation. I can not say enough about what the AENT has brought to my attention. Half of the book is notes on the culture, and the history on the early Eastern church. It is the best forty bucks I have ever spent on theology books.

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jamie

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keypurr said:
The terms Father and son are just a way for for God to relate to us. The Aramaic uses YHWH as the most high.
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The Torah was not written in Aramaic, the important thing is the Hebrew meaning. In the Hebrew the word means immortal.

The Father is immortal and the Son is immortal. And we will soon be immortal.
 
JudgeRightly

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From another thread:

On the matter of affirming the Trinity...

rightly divide

Spoiler

To substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity, six and only six points need to be demonstrated from Scripture:

1. There is only one true God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is a Person (see discussion of person below).
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct subsistencies from each other.

1. There is only one true God:

OT: Exod 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; Deut 4:35,39; 6:4; 10:14; 32:39; 33:26; Josh 2:11; 1Sam 2:2; 2Sam 7:22; 1Ki 8:23,60; 2Ki 5:15;1Chr 16:26; 17:20; Neh 9:6; Ps 18:31; 71:19; 86:8-10; 96:5; 113:4f; Isa 37:16,20; 43:10f; 44:6,8; 45:5f,14,18,21f; 46:5,9f; Jer 10:6-10; Hos 13:4; Zech 14:9; Mal 2:10.

NT: Mark 12:29,32; John 5:44; 17:3; 1Cor 8:4-6; Gal 3:20; Eph 4:6; 1Tim 2:5.

2. The Father is God:

OT: Deut 32:6; Ps 89:26; Isa 63:16; 64:8; Mal 1:6; 2:10.

NT: Matt 6:9; John 6:27; 20:17; Rom 1:7; 1Cor 1:3; Eph 1:2; 4:6; 5:20; 6:23; Phil 1:2; 2:11; 4:20; Col 1:2; 3:17; 1Thes 1:1,3; 3:11,13; 2Thes 1:1f; 2:16; 1Tim 1:2; Phlm 1:3; Jude 1:1.

3. The Son is God:

A) Called God or Ascribed Deity:

OT: Gen 19:24; Ps 45:7; Isa 7:14; 9:6; Jer 23:5f; Zech 2:8-3:2; 12:1,10

NT: Matt 1:22f; John 1:1; 5:18; 20:28; Acts 20:28; Rom 8:9; 9:5; Phil 2:5-9; Col 2:9; 1Tim 3:16; Titus 2:13; Heb 1:3,8-12; 2Pet 1:1; 1John 5:20.

B) Possess the Attributes of God.
1) Personal: All of Jesus' interactions with people in the Gospels are proof of His personhood (e.g, Matt 3:13-15; 4:18-22; 8:1-22; 9:1-38). Jesus is also specifically said to possess wisdom (Luke 2:52), a will (Luke 22:42), and a mind (1Cor 2:16; Phil 2:5).

2) Creator and Sustainer: John 1:3; Col 1:16f; Heb 1:2 (cp. Job 9:8; Isa 44:24).

3) Live Giver: John 1:4; 4:10-14; 5:21; 6:40, 44; 11:25; Acts 3:15; 1Cor 15:45; 1John 5:11; Rev 1:18.

4) Spirit/ Invisible: Not applicable due to the incarnation. Jesus now has a real physical body.

5) Omnipresent: Matt 18:20; 28:20; John 1:48; 3:13; Eph 1:22f; 4:10.

6) Omniscient: Matt 9:4; 11:27; 12:25; Mark 2:8; 12:15; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 9:47; 11:17; John 2:23-25; 4:16-18; 16:30; 21:17; Rev 2:23.

7) Knows the Future: Matt 16:21; 17:22f; 20:17-19,22f; 24:1-25; 26:21-25,31-35; Mark 8:31; 9:31; 13:1-23; 14:27-30,72; Luke 9:22,44; 18:31-33; 21:5-24; 22:10-13; John 2:19; 6:64,70f; 13:11,36-38; 21:18f.

8) Omnipotent: Matt 28:18; Phil 3:20f; Rev 1:8; 3:7.

9) Sovereign: Dan 7:13f; Matt 17:24-27; 28:18; Acts 10:36; Eph 1:20-22; Heb 1:3.

10) King over all the earth/ King of kings: Psalm 45:1-7; Dan 7:13f; Matt 25:34,40; John 18:37; Heb 1:8; Rev 11:15; 17:14; 19:16.

11) Lord of all the earth/ Lord of lords: Matt 11:27; Phil 2:9-11; Acts 10:36; Rom 10:12; Rev 17:14; 19:16.

12) God over all false gods/ God of gods: John 10:31-39; Acts 17:18,31; 1Cor 8:5f.

13) Incomprehensible: Matt 11:27; Eph 3:19.

14) Eternal (The First and the Last/ The Alpha and Omega/ The Beginning and End): Isa 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1:1; 17:5,24; Col 1:17; Heb 1:8,10f; 7:3; Rev 1:8,11,17f; 2:8; 11:15; 22:12-16.

15) Self-Existent (I Am/ The Living God): I Am! Matt 14:27; Mark 6:50; 14:62; John 6:20; 8:24,58; 13:19; 18:5f,8 (Note: Some versions have 'It is I' in these verses, but the literal phrase is 'I Am!') Other: John 5:26; 1Cor 15:45.

16) Immutable/ Faithful/ Worthy of Trust: Phil 2:24; 1Thes 5:24; 2Thes 3:3; 2Tim 2:13; Heb 1:8-12; 2:17; 3:2; 10:23; 13:8; Rev 3:14,17; 19:11.

17) Perfect/ Incomparable/ Awesome/ Great: Judg 13:6; Luke 13:32; John 6:68; Heb 2:10; 5:9; 12:2; 2Pet 1:16 (cp. Luke 9:43).

18) Good/ Goodness: John 7:12; 10:32; Acts 10:38; Eph 2:7.

19) Holy: Josh 5:13-15 (cp, Exod 3:5); Isa 53:9; Matt 26:59f; Luke 5:8; John 8:46; 2Cor 5:21; Heb 4:15; 7:26; Rev 1:17.

20) Righteous and Just: Zech 9:9; Matt 12:20; 27:19,24; Luke 18:8; 23:47; John 5:20; 7:18; Acts 3:14; 22:14; 1Cor 1:30; 1Tim 3:16; 2Tim 4:8; Heb 1:9; 1Pet 3:18; 2Pet 1:1; 1John 1:9; 2:29; 19:11.

21) Truth: Matt 22:16; Mark 12:14,32; John 1:14,17; 7:18; 8:40,45f; 14:6; 18:37; 2Cor 11:10; Eph 4:21; 1John 5:20; Rev 3:7,14; 19:11.

22) Light: Matt 4:16; 17:2; 24:27; Luke 1:78f; 2:32; 17:24; John 1:4,9; 3:19-21; 8:12; 9:5; 12:35f,46; Acts 9:3f; 22:6-11; 26:12-18; Eph 5:14; Rev 21:23.

23) Judge: Ps 2:7-9; Matt 16:27; 25:31-46 [cp. Ezek 34:17]; John 5:22-27; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Rom 2:16; 1Cor 4:5; 2Cor 5:10f; Eph 6:8; 2Tim 4:1,8; Jam 5:9; 1Pet 4:5; Rev 2:23; 19:11.

24) Fire: Matt 3:10-12; Luke 3:16f; 2Thes 1:7f; Rev 1:14 (cp. Dan 7:9); 19:12.

25) Wrath: Ps 2:12; Rev 6:15-17; 19:15.

26) Grace, Mercy, Compassion, and Love: Matt 9:36; 14:14; 15:32; 20:28,34; Mark 1:41; 6:34; 8:2; Luke 7:13; John 1:14,17; 13:1; 15:9-13; Acts 15:11; Rom 5:21; 8:35; 16:20; 1Cor 16:23; 2Cor 5:14; 13:14; Gal 6:18; Eph 3:19; Phil 4:23; 1Thes 5:28; 2Thes 3:18; 1Tim 1:2; 2Tim 1:2,18; Tit 1:4; Phlm 1:25; 2John 1:3; Jude 1:21; Rev 22:21.

27) Forgives Sin: Mark 2:5-11; Luke 7:47-50; Col 3:13; Jam 5:15.

28) Redeems/ Redeemer: Rom 3:24; 1Cor 1:30 Gal 3:13; 4:4f; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Titus 2:14; Heb 9:12-15; 1Pet 1:18f; Rev 5:9; 14:3f.

29) Saves/ Savior: Zech 9:9; Matt 1:21; 18:11; Luke 2:11; 9:56; 19:10; John 3:17; 4:42; 10:9; 5:34; 12:47; Acts 2:47; 4:12; 5:31; 13:23;16:30f; Rom 5:9f; 10:8-13; Eph 5:23; Phil 3:20; 1Tim 1:15; 2Tim 1:10; 2:10; 3:15; Titus 1:4; 2:13; 3:6; Heb 2:10; 7:25; 9:28; 2Pet 1:1,11; 2:20; 3:2,15; 1John 4:14; Rev 7:10; 9:28; 2Pet 1:1,11; 2:20; 3:2,15; 1John 4:14; Rev 7:10.

30) Rock: Rom 9:33; 1Cor 10:4; 1Pet 2:7f.

31) Shepherd: Mic 5:4; Matt 25:32; John 10:11,14-16; Heb 13:20; 1Peter 2:25; 5:4; Rev 7:16f.

32) Father: Not applicable as Jesus is the Son, not the Father.

33) Glorious/ Wonderful: Judg 13:18; Isa 4:2; 9:6; 11:10; Matt 21:15; 25:31; Luke 13:17; Titus 2:13.

34) Hears and Answers Prayer: John 14:13f; Acts 7:59f; 2Cor 12:8f; 1John 5:13-15; Rev 5:8 (cp. 8:4).

35) Worthy of Worship and All Praise: Josh 5:13f; Matt 14:33; 21:9,16f; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Phil 2:10f; 2Tim 4:18; Heb 1:6; 2Peter 3:18; Rev 5:8-14. While it is true that some of these attributes could be said about people or angels, no person or angel possesses almost all of them as Jesus Christ does. Thus putting all of them together is strong proof Jesus is fully God.

C) Additional Attributes of Deity:
Controls the weather: Matt 14:30-33; Mark 4:36-41; (cp. Job 38:25-38; Ps 135:7).
Gives commandments: Matt 5:27f,31-48 (cp. Exod 20:1-17).
Fills the hungry soul: John 6:48-51 (cp. Ps 107:9).
Receives sacred service (Gr., latreuo): Rev 22:3 (cp. Matt 4:10).

D) Theophanies = Christophanies:
The NT teaches no on can see God (John 1:18; 6:46). But people did see the Lord in the OT (e.g., Isa 6:1-8). Appearances of the Lord in the OT are actually appearances of God the Son (John 12:37,41). It is God the Father that people cannot see (1Tim 6:16).

E) The Angel of the Lord and the Lord:
In the OT, the Angel of the Lord is both distinct from the Lord and identified with Him. The appearances of the Angel of the Lord are appearances of the pre-incarnate Christ.

Distinct subsistencies ('persons'): 2Sam 24:16f; 1Chr 21:15f,27; Zech 1:12. Same Person: Gen 22:1f,11f,15f; Gen 28:10-22 (cp. 31:11-13); 48:15f (Note: 'bless' is singular). Exod 3:2,4 Exod 13:21; 14:19. Exod 20:1f; Deut 1:6-8; Judg 2:1-4; Judg 2:1-4; Judg 6:11-21 (cp. vv.11f with v.14) Judg 13:21f. Hosea 12:3-5.

F) God and the Lamb:
In the Revelation, God and the Lamb are distinct and from each other yet identified with each other. Rev 7:10,17; 21:22f; 22:1,3 (cp. Isa 60:19f).

G) OT Passages in NT:
Passages in the OT referring to God are quoted or alluded to in the NT as referring to the Son. Ps 8:2 / Matt 21:16. Ps 102:25-27 / Heb 1:10-12. Ps 130:8 / Matt 1:21. Isa 26:19; 60:1 / Eph 5:14. Isa 40:3/ Matt 3:3 Isa 43:10 / Acts 1:8. Isa 45:23 / Phil 2:10. Jer 2:13; 17:13 / John 4:13f; 7:37. Jer 9:24 / 2Cor 10:17f. Jer 17:10 / Rev 2:23. Joel 2:32 / Rom 10:13. Mal 3:1 / Mark 1:2.

4. The Holy Spirit is a Person capable of thought, will, and interaction with others.

A) Has a mind and a will.

Rom 8:27; 1Cor 12:11.

B) Acts 13:1-5:
Speaks, commands, and calls: verse 2. Refers to Himself with personal pronouns: 'to Me' and 'I' - verse 2. Sends out missionaries: verse 4.

C) Elsewhere in the Book of Acts:
Inspires Scripture: Acts 1:16.
Is lied to: Acts 5:3.
Bears witness: Acts 5:32.
Instructs: Acts 8:29.
Comforts: Acts 9:31.
Tells and sends: Acts 10:19f; 11:12.
Knows what is good: Acts 15:28.
Forbids: Acts 16:6f.
Testifies: Acts 20:23.
Appoints church officers: Acts 20:28.
Prophesies: Acts 28:25.

D) Elsewhere in the Bible:
Hovers: Gen 1:2 (cp. Deut 32:11).
Speaks: 2Sam 23:2; Ezek 2:2-3:14,24ff; 11:5-12; John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 21:11; 28:25; 1Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7; Rev 2:7,11,17,29; 3:1,6,13,22; 14:13; 22:17.
Gives plans: 1Chr 28:11f.
Instructs: Neh 9:20.
Sends: Isa 48:16; Ezek 2:2f.
Grieves: Isa 63:10; Eph 4:30.
Inspires Scripture: Zech 7:12; 2Pet 1:21.
Leads: Matt 4:1; Mark 1:12; Luke 4:1; Rom 8:14.
Speaks for believers: Matt 10:19f.
Can be blasphemed: Matt 12:31f; Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10.
Teaches: Luke 12:12; John 14:26.
Witnesses: John 15:26; Heb 10:15-17; Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1John 5:6.
Assures, leads, bears witness, and enables: Rom 8:14-17.
Helps and makes intercession: Rom 8:26f (cp. v.34; 1Tim 2:5).
Loves: Rom 15:30.
Searches: 1Cor 2:10f.
Justifies: 1Cor 6:11.
Gives gifts: 1Cor 12:8-11; Heb 2:4.
Fellowships: 2Cor 13:14; Phil 2:1.
Reveals: Eph 3:5.
Instructs: 1Tim 4:1; Heb 9:8.
Is insulted: Heb 10:29.
Commands: Rev 22:17.

E) John 14:16:
The Spirit is 'another Counselor' (allos parakletos) besides Jesus (1John 2:1; the Greek word is also parakletos). Note also, allos indicates another of the same kind. It is distinct from heteros, which indicators another of a different kind (e.g., Gal 1:6f, 'different in v. 6 is heteros, 'another' in v. 7 is allos). Since Jesus is a Person, the Holy Spirit must be of the same kind and thus a Person also.

5. The Holy Spirit is God:

A) Equated with God:

Exod 29:45f; Haggai 2:5. 2Sam 23:2f Acts 5:3,4. Rom 5:5; 2Thes 3:5. 1Cor 12:6,11,18. 2Cor 3:17f.

B) Possesses the Attributes of God:

1) Personal: See previous section.

2) Creator: Gen 1:2b; Job 26:13; Ps 104:30.

3) Live Giver: Gen 2:7; Job 27:3; 33:4; Rom 8:2,11; 1Pet 3:18.

4) Spirit/ Invisible: Self-evident.

5) Omnipresent: Numb 11:25f; Ps 139:7-10; Joel 2:28f; John 3:34; Acts 4:31; 5:32; 8:15-17; 10:44; 19:6; Rom 5:5; 8:9; 1Cor 3:16; 6:19; Gal 4:6; 2Tim 1:14

6) Omniscient: Isa 43:10; 1Cor 2:10f.

7) Knows the Future: Luke 2:26; John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 11:28; 20:22f; 21:11,33; 1Tim 4:1; 1Pet 1:11.

8) Omnipotent: Luke 1:35-37; Rom 15:19.

9) Eternal: Heb 9:14.

10) Good/ Goodness: Neh 9:20; Ps 143:10.

11) Holy: 'Holy Spirit' appears 95 times. See also Rom 1:4.

12) Truth: John 14:17; 15:26; 16:13; 1John 5:6.

13) Fire: Acts 2:3f; Rev 4:5.

14) Grace, Mercy, Compassion, and Love: Zech 12:10; Heb 10:29.

15) Glorious/ Wonderful: 2Cor 3:8; 1Peter 4:14.

16) Hears and Answers Prayer: Rom 8:26f; Eph 6:18; Jude 1:20. The number of attributes of God ascribed to the Spirit is not as all-encompassing as for the Son, but number is still significant and sufficient to establish His deity.

C) Additional Attributes of God:
Calls into ministry: Acts 13:2; 20:28.
Inspires Scripture: Zech 7:12; 2Pet 1:20f; Rev 2:7.
Gives eternal life: John 3:3-8; Titus 3:5.

D) The Temple of God = The Temple of the Holy Spirit:
The bodies of Christians are described as being the temple of God and as being the temple of the Holy Spirit since we are filled with the Holy Spirit, who is God. 1Cor 3:16; 6:19; 2Cor 6:16; Eph 3:19; 5:18.

E) The Spirit's Words are Equated with God's Words: Lev 16:1-34 / Heb 9:7f. Isa 6:9f / Acts 28:25-27. Jer 31:33f / Heb 10:15f.

6. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other:

A) In the OT:
Gen 1:1-3,26f; 11:7; 19:24; Neh 9:20; Ps 2:1-9; Prov 30:4; Isa 6:8; 48:16; 63:11; Dan 7:13f; Zech 2:8-3:2.

B) In the Gospels:
Matt 3:16; 4:1,6; 11:25-27; 12:32f; 14:23; 16:16f; 17:5; 22:44; 26:39,42; 27:46; 28:18f; Mark 1:1,8; 12:36; 13:32; 15:34; 16:19; Luke 4:18; 6:12; 11:13; 20:42f; 23:34,46; John 1:1f; 3:16-18,34-36; 5:19-23,26f,30f,36-38,43-45; 6:27,37-46; 8:17f; 11:41f: 13:1; 14:6,16f,23-31; 15:26; 16:13-16,25-28,32; 17:1-28; 20:17,21f.

C) In the Book of Acts:
2:22-36; 3:13-15,19f,26; 4:24-30; 7:55f; 10:34-42; 13:33-37; 15:8; 17:30f; 20:21.


D) In the Pauline Epistles:
Rom 1:1-9; 1Cor 1:1-9; 2:10f; 15:23-28; 2Cor 1:1-3; 2:14f; 3:3-6; 5:18-21; 13:14; Gal 1:1-5; 4:4-6; Eph 1:2-23; 2:1-10,18; 3:14-21; 4:4-6; 5:1f; 6:23; Phil 1:2,11; 2:5-11; Col 1:2f,19f; 2:2; 3:1; 1Thes 1:1,3; 4:8; 5:9; 2Thes 1:2; 2:13-17; 1Tim 1:1f; 2Tim 1:1f; 4:1; Tit 1:4; Phlm 1:3.

E) In the General Epistles and The Revelation:
Heb 1:1-9,13; 2:9,17; 5:5-10; 7:25; 9:14,24; 10:5-13; 12:2; 13:20f; Jam 1:1; 1Pet 1:1-3,17-21; 2:4-6; 3:18,22; 5:10; 1John 1:3,7; 2:1; 4:7-10; 5:6,11; 2John 1:3,9; Jude 1:1,20f; Rev 1:1-6; 5:9f,13; 21:22f; 22:1,17.


A steadfast denial of the Triune Godhead leaves no man warrant to claim he is a believer. :AMR:

AMR
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Bright Raven

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keypurr said:
Aramaic came from the Hebrew.

son is immortal NOW, but he had had a beginning



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The Son is eternal. He has no beginning.

1 John 1:1-2 King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
 
keypurr

keypurr

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Bright Raven said:
The Son is eternal. He has no beginning.

1 John 1:1-2 King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
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He is an IMAGE. why can't you understand that? He had a beginning before all creation.

Your understanding of the verses posted are flawed friend.

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keypurr said:
He is an IMAGE.
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Why do insist on remaining so stupid?

The English TRANSLATION in the KJV of the SINGLE Greek word "charakter" is the EXPRESS IMAGE. It is NOT talking about an image in the ridiculous sense that you try to make it.

It is talking about the Lord Jesus Christ being the VERY CHARACTER of God's PERSON. In other words, He is God.

Heb 1:3 (AKJV/PCE)​
(1:3) Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; ​

keypurr said:
why can't you understand that?
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Why can't YOU understand that?

keypurr said:
He had a beginning before all creation.
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No, He had NO beginning, you dumb old heretic.

John 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)​
(1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ​

keypurr said:
Your understanding of the verses posted are flawed friend.
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Point that finger back at yourself you heretic.
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
Bright Raven said:
What do you not understand about the word ETERNAL! He has no beginning and He has no end.
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If Christ was created BEFORE TIME he would be eternal as you define it. The Father existed FIRST for Christ Is an IMAGE of his Father.

Ponder on that BR.

The subject of an image must exist for the image of it can be created.


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keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
Right Divider said:
Why do insist on remaining so stupid?

The English TRANSLATION in the KJV of the SINGLE Greek word "charakter" is the EXPRESS IMAGE. It is NOT talking about an image in the ridiculous sense that you try to make it.

It is talking about the Lord Jesus Christ being the VERY CHARACTER of God's PERSON. In other words, He is God.

Heb 1:3 (AKJV/PCE)​
(1:3) Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; ​


Why can't YOU understand that?


No, He had NO beginning, you dumb old heretic.

John 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)​
(1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ​


Point that finger back at yourself you heretic.
Click to expand...

No thinking person listens to you RD.

And I do not rely on the Greek. Prove all things.


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Bright Raven

Bright Raven

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keypurr said:
If Christ was created BEFORE TIME he would be eternal as you define it. The Father existed FIRST for Christ Is an IMAGE of his Father.

Ponder on that BR.

The subject of an image must exist for the image of it can be created.


Sent from my iPad using TOL
Click to expand...

Christ is not created. He is and always will be. ETERNAL my friend.
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
Bright Raven said:
Christ is not created. He is and always will be. ETERNAL my friend.
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We agree that he always will be but we disagree that he always was.

The Father was alone at one time. The Son is his first creation. The Bible says he is the firstborn of all CREATURES in Col 1:15.


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